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DOES TALENT MATTER OR CAN A MONKEY SHOOT?
Peter Wodarczyk, Photographer
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Huntingdon Valley | Pa | U.S | Posted: 9:43 AM on 05.04.04 |
->> Sometime ago I interviewed with a very large newspaper and the fellow that interviewed me had some interesting things to say. The interview was going well until he found out I didn’t finish my schooling. I didn’t finish my schooling because I just couldn’t afford it. Halfway through the interview he then says “I have no problem uses you because I know you’ll get good shoots that I could use. But I don’t have a degree.” We continue to talk about the importance of a degree. So then, as sometime passed I ask him if he had a choice between a kid who just came out of school and has no experience and I whom would he choose. He said the kid “ TALENT DOESN’T MATTER I CAN TEACH A MONKEY HOW TO SHOOT.” I was not rude or disrespectful at all! I used to believe that being good at something counted but that’s not what he says. It just doesn’t matter! I have invested a great deal of time in the arts and would like to have this issue of TALENT cleared up. I am still devastated by his remarks and I appreciate some input on TALENT! In this field of photography does it matter if you’re good at it or do you just have to know the right person? I herd many say that it’s being at the right place at the right time…John Smith knew someone so that’s why he got in.. ETC….
I thank any who respond to this thread in advance.
Peter Wodraczyk |
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Daniel Tunstall, Photographer
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Pearland | TX | USA | Posted: 9:48 AM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> They "want" to use talented artists, they "want" to pay for monkeys. |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Smyrna | TN | U.S. | Posted: 9:54 AM on 05.04.04 |
->> I majored in newspaper journalism and any photography courses would have been wasted hours, not counting toward my major. So what I did was get the books from friends in the classes and worked with the teachers anyway. I've also read other books, studied more than 10 times as much as the classes from online references and personal contacts who have photography degrees.
During an interview a few years ago, the editor basically ended the conversation when he found out I didn't major in the subject, and didn't take a glance at my portfolio or entertain my "self-studied" explanations. So, does having a degree matter in getting good images? To me, no. To someone having to explain to current and future employees as to why he hired someone who isn't as "qualified" as they are, apparently so. Thank goodness there are others who dare to see past it. For entry-level positions, though, the degree is often worth more than the portfolio. |
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jeff martin, Photographer, Student/Intern
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 10:10 AM on 05.04.04 |
->> That's easy to answer. Compare the images om my member page to some of the more talented shooters here. Feel free to use that to show the editor, although I'm sure that won't change his mind. Maybe he could teach this monkey to be a Miller of LaForte.
Jeff |
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Phil Sedgwick, Photographer
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Oceanside | CA | USA | Posted: 10:21 AM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> Is the Monkey shooting Nikon or Canon ? |
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Michael L. Palmieri, Photographer
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Barnegat | NJ | USA | Posted: 10:26 AM on 05.04.04 |
->> An ape holds one more Nat'l Geo cover credit to his/her name than I do. Oct. 1978 --- self "portrait" shot with an Olympus OM.
Makes you wonder ;-) ... |
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David Boily, Photographer
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Ville St-Laurent | QC | Canada | Posted: 10:34 AM on 05.04.04 |
->> This guy seems to have a serious problem if he wants a candidate with a degree, but thinks a monkey can do the job. Ask him where the monkey studied?
I do not have a degree (in photography) either and wish I did. However when I looked at enrolling in a full-time program in my area, I found that none of them had anything new to offer. I would go to class just to learn a minimal amount of new material. When I took continuing ed classes, I wound up teaching the teacher a few things about digital photography.
Instead of wasting away for 2 to 3 years in school, I chose to hit the real world and get experience. I now have invaluable experience that you cannot learn in school. I have made money here and there allowing me to buy some gear.
Don't get me wrong, I think a degree in PJ is great and had I discovered this passion earlier in life, would have definatley studied. But put me in a room with 4 or 5 other photogs and I'll get as good if not better a shot than most and my editor will have it within the hour.
Bottom line, Mr. Smith must have been intimidated by you and was looking to hire a photographer with the pay of a student.
Cheers,
Dave.
P.S.: I use to work as a stock broker and would hear "Even a monkey can pick stocks!" DAMN THESE MONKEYS!! THEY'RE TAKING ALL OUR JOBS. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Fort Worth | TX | USA | Posted: 10:48 AM on 05.04.04 |
->> To play Devil's advocate ...
I can see where the importance of having a degree would become an issue with this prospective employer. I don't think it really matters, though, what your degree was in; I seem to recall several of my old professors telling me I was wasting my time studying journalism and would be better off with an English or history degree ... talk about mentoring, eh? Of course, it's not your fault (from what I can gather, anyway) that you were unable to finish school. Catch-22.
Of course, I'm not too sure I get a warm and fuzzy feeling from this "monkey" business. Sounds like your interviewer needs to spend more time differentiating between his inside and outside voices.
Where's Dr. Zaius when you need him?
- g - |
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Larry Vaughn, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | usa | Posted: 11:00 AM on 05.04.04 |
->> Sure monkeys can push a button and hold a camera. But maybe after that they would throw the camera at the wall or the interviewer you mentioned. Monkeys tend to throw others things as well, like monkey skat. They also do things porn stars do, without prompting and without having a camera pointed at them.
So I feel that you should tell the interviewer the above information, and ask that he stop monkeying around and take a look at your portfolio. For added affect, pull out a banana and eat it whole in front of him, and make sure you offer him one as well.
If you really want that job, just go out every day and shoot some feature or news. Since we all know digital cameras don't need film or processing, it won't actually cost you anything to do this.
Email the photos to the photo editor, whoever. Soon they will see that you are not into monkeyshines; that you are dependable and can consistently come up with good shots. Anyways, as far as they are concerned, you are merely taking a sabbatical from school.
One other thing: When in doubt, photograph kids, nuns, puppies or chimps. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:31 AM on 05.04.04 |
->> Was the fellow who interviewed you a Photographer or a Photo Editor? Or, did he hold another type of position in the newsroom?
Having been in a position to interview and hire people in the past, I might offer some little insight in this. We looked for prospects with college degrees because it showed us that they could persevere, work towards a goal, take directions, and give what others asked for. We also looked for people that we would find easy to work with, fit a general personality type for the type of work we were doing, and could fit into our group. We felt that anybody with the basic qualifications could be trained, and that it was more important that the person fit well into our group and would work well it others. (In fact, I recall having this conversation with Joe Elbert once; he told me he would rather work with somebody he liked (who was ok), than a great photographer who was an asshole. Joe was a very direct man.)
From what I understand, talent will only get you so far. The rest of it is about relationships. |
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Jason Grow, Photographer
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Gloucester | MA | USA | Posted: 11:48 AM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> A number of years ago when I was working at the Merc, we hired a Rhesus for an internship and she did a pretty fair job -- a couple of tough days when she wouldn't get out of the rigging in the studio, but not bad. The ones to stay away from are Lemurs -- look like monkeys, but altogether different beasts and are LOUSY at getting wild art on slow days -- Chimps: much too full of attitude -- they're more suited for magazine work -- hope this helps. |
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Peter Wodarczyk, Photographer
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Huntingdon Valley | Pa | U.S | Posted: 12:18 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> Larry this fellow was a former photographer and now is a editor who teaches at a school. He then tried to sell me to go to his school where he teaches. He said I will learn things like lighting and so on… Then I told him how I had been learning all of that assisting with some commercial photogs and getting paid for it and said my farewells!!! |
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Dick Van Nostrand, Photographer
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Bay City | MI | USA | Posted: 12:29 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> There are many newspapers who won't even interview a candidate for job who doesn't have a four-year degree. While I believe everybody, regardless of career, should attempt to obtain the most education possible, I also believe that the "have to have a degree" philosophy cheats the papers out of some amazingly talented people who don't fit the mold. Ask many successful professionals who have been in the business a long time and you'll find people who came up from a variety of backgrounds and educational oportunities. The common thread that links many of them is their love of the profession and the desire to be the best that they can be. |
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chris curry, Photographer
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Peoria | IL | usa | Posted: 12:30 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> Is KoKo (the primate who has the NG cover credit) a sportsshooter member? Or some of her friends?
Perhaps that's why we're getting such lame posts these days. |
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chris curry, Photographer
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Peoria | IL | usa | Posted: 12:47 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> Not that this one's lame.
Just refering to some I read last week involving stats. |
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John Kavouris, Photographer
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Bartlett | IL | US | Posted: 1:05 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> "Lame posts" is an understatement...
The answer to your question, Peter, is yes, talent matters. So do skill, personality, and dependability. If that guy thinks he has monkeys working for him, that's how he'll treat you.
Someone should tell him that talent matters in management as well. |
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Sean Browne, Photographer
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N. Attleboro | MA | USA | Posted: 1:08 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> Does an 800 lb gorilla need credentials?
No, he can shoot where ever he wants....
:) |
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Conor O'Healy, Photographer
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Tualatin | OR | USA | Posted: 1:14 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> A few weeks ago I was home sick, and saw a show on, I think The Learning Channel. I think the show was called "faking it". They would take an average everyday person, put them into some sort of job, give them about two weeks, and they would have to pull it off infront of judges as well as do the job in a major venue. The one I saw was on lady doing pro-cheerleading, and she had to end up working at a NFL game. Like I said, I was home sick, and very bored.
Anyways, I would love to see this show do one on sports photography. Everyone (except photographers) seem to think that sports photography is so easy. Let's see how the average joe does with 2 weeks of training in photography, a digi body, and some long glass at a major venue.
I would love to see that.
Conor |
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Jason Grow, Photographer
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Gloucester | MA | USA | Posted: 1:28 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> Conor--
They actually did one on a London radiographer becoming a fashion photographer under the tutelage of a top London fashion guy -- it was pretty interesting -- he did okay - |
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Silver Spring | MD | USA | Posted: 1:31 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> Things don't seem to change. 25 years ago, a former boss said to me "anyone can shoot spot news - the real test of a photographer is whether he can set-up a picture."
Bill Pierce of Time Magazine fame has an English degree from Princeton University. Did Ansel Adams go to college? Can't remember, but his pictures are fabulous even if he didn't get a BA in Fine Art.
Sure schooling helps shape a person, but life is the best classroom. In life's classroom you never stop learning.
So Peter I hope you learned that you really don't want to work for anyone with a philosophy out-of-step with your own. Fire this person from you life and hire a newspaper job that matches your expectations. |
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Peter Wodarczyk, Photographer
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Huntingdon Valley | Pa | U.S | Posted: 1:34 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> Thanx Walter |
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Scott Bort, Student/Intern, Assistant
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Champaign | il | USA | Posted: 1:35 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> I think this conversation brings us to a much larger philosophical question....can a chimp CHIMP? |
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Peter Wodarczyk, Photographer
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Huntingdon Valley | Pa | U.S | Posted: 1:37 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> To all who responded I thank also... I especially love the monkey jokes. |
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Peter Wodarczyk, Photographer
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Huntingdon Valley | Pa | U.S | Posted: 1:40 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> Scott,
Are you familiar with the Simpson’s?
If so , we have a shortage of BORT name plates
(G) 8^) |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Smyrna | TN | U.S. | Posted: 1:42 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> Remember though, while we're tossing around the idea that experience and knowledge are often gained outside of the classroom, that there is nothing bad you can say about having a degree. Sure, I can get the same book knowledge as the guy enrolled in an advanced photography class, but he's got the same access to life as I do, plus a framed piece of paper and another line on his resume. Take two portfolios for one job, both equal in composition and quality. One has a degree in the field of the job. The other is self-taught. Your job at a major company is to hire one. Which are you going to choose based on your tight schedule? |
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Peter Wodarczyk, Photographer
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Huntingdon Valley | Pa | U.S | Posted: 1:45 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> Wouldn’t you hire the person that would be easiest to work with and get along? |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Fort Worth | TX | USA | Posted: 1:48 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> "Did Ansel Adams go to college? Can't remember, but his pictures are fabulous even if he didn't get a BA in Fine Art."
If I'm not mistaken, he was a classically trained pianist. |
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Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
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Smyrna | TN | U.S. | Posted: 1:49 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> That would be a small part of many factors. I would imagine it's impossible to determine how easy someone is to work with during the interviewing process. |
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Brian Light, Photographer
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Walter Calahan, Photographer
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Silver Spring | MD | USA | Posted: 7:38 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> Adams crooked nose was do to the San Francisco earthquake. He rolled out of his crib when the famous earthquake hit and landed on his face breaking his nose. He lived with that mark for the rest of his life. |
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Jock Fistick, Photographer
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Brussels | Belgium | | Posted: 8:27 PM on 05.04.04 |
| ->> I think Walter nailed it when he said that you don't want to work for someone who thinks this way - consider yourself lucky! As for a degree, yes it is important for a number of reasons - many of which have already been stated - although I don't think it matters what the degree is in - your portfolio will speak about your photographic ability. Some of the best photographers I know have degrees in subjects other than photography. I think a degree or a minor in sociology or folklore for example would be of equal if not greater benefit to a photojournalist than a BA/BFA in photography or a journalism degree. But for me, the first consideration would be the persons work - then experience and then education. |
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Jack Howard, Photographer
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Somerville | NJ | USA | Posted: 9:03 PM on 05.04.04 |
->> I have a degree, in History and English, as someone mentioned above...
At my school, you could only get into the photography classes as a non-arts major after all the art major kids were signed up. Never got in one.
To take a photojournalism course, you had to first take a bunch of word journalism classes (which I wasn't going to take until after the photo courses), along with Photo 101 and 102.
I've recently had an interview with a circ 40K+ daily and my degree never came up. It was all about experience, photo visions, and technical know-how.
Personally, I would not want to work for an editor that had the attitude stated in the initial posting in this thread, whether I had a degree in Photojournalism or 17th Century Obtuse Slavic Poetry.
I do sometimes wonder when I don't hear back from an editor for a position I've applied for, if it is my portfolio, or the lack of a photo degree that puts me in the 'out' pile... |
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Niko Kallianiotis, Photographer
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Coshocton | OH | | Posted: 12:34 AM on 05.05.04 |
->> I think a good portfolio is what matters and the degree always helps. I know many good photographers for wire services that the picked up a camera after quiting their primary jod. Also was it mentioned in the job ad that a degree is required? Some job ads state this so you know what to do. I think that if it was you or me the final cuts for the job and we did not have the degree, competing with a guy that had it, having the same portfolio quality, godd references, fancy paper, interview went great in both..then he will hire they guy with the degree, just for the heck of it. I think in both cases it's unfair, to someone with a good portfolio not getting a job, and to the guy that spent 4 years in school and $80,000 to lose the job over someone with no degree, I have to stop cause I am getting confused and it's to late
Night!! |
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Scott Bort, Student/Intern, Assistant
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Champaign | il | USA | Posted: 2:38 AM on 05.05.04 |
| ->> OT i know- but it's in reponse to Peter's eariler comment- Peter in reference to my last in the halls of comtemptory simpsonia, i am well aware. the itchy and scracthy island where bart cannot find his name plate but finds a bort plate and people are named bort around him. Yes i hear that one all the time, when i walk into the walgreens where i work, one of the clerks always announces that "attention please: we are out of Bort lisence plates, i repeat we are out of Bort lisence plates." Another useless fact is that during the episode about the remake of radioactive man movie, one of the cheesey batman esque punch sequences (Boom! OUCH! ARGH!) BORT! is one of them, i should talk to a lawyer about misappropiation of my last name, but then again, i could care less... |
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Jayme Pastoric, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | | Posted: 3:14 AM on 05.05.04 |
| ->> Joining the military at such a young age (17) I really didn’t have any “Book smarts” when it came to photography, but what I lacked in smarts I made up in experience and I feel I gained more then the guy that got photography fed to him via the book. So in all I think that actions speak louder then words and if this guy can’t see that then it’s something that just isn’t worth it. good luck Peter |
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Mike Burley, Student/Intern
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Ventura | CA | USA | Posted: 3:16 AM on 05.05.04 |
| ->> I think an employer will hire someone with a degree because it shows that he/she will finish what he starts. Its more about dependability and charachter than about talent, not to say that if you suck and have a degree, you'll get hired. Being a good photographer is a given, but they want that extra somthing. Its not manditory to have a degree, but it sure doesn't hurt. Whatever puts you ahead of the competition, like knowledge of video, layout, and writing. Its not manditory, but wouldn't you hire the guy that has ALL the skills? I know I would..... |
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Darron Spohn, Photographer
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Santa Clara | CA | USA | Posted: 10:26 PM on 05.05.04 |
->> No, a monkey cannot take good sports photos. I hired a couple of sportshooter.com members to back me up at Sears Point (aka Infineon) Raceway a couple of months ago. Between the two of them they came back with 150 sharp (not good, just sharp) photos out of the 2,000 they shot during the day.
Talent matters. My 18-year-old son outshot them both one week later at Thunderhill Raceway. He shot 400 photos before lunch, 250 of which were good enough to deliver to customers.
Note to self: Audition photographers before relying on them. |
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Jack Howard, Photographer
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Somerville | NJ | USA | Posted: 11:55 AM on 05.06.04 |
->> Note to self: Try to maintain a level of professionalism and decorum while responding to posts on SS.com.
Darron, apparently I'm not the only one who thought your comments directly above were inappropriate.
What is your point? To insult a couple of SS members? To brag about your son's shooting skills? To illustrate unprofessionalism?
Your 'note to self' holds true; but from where I'm sitting, it seems like you are the one that messed up more than the two SS members you hired; in not knowing the skillset of the photographers and assistants that you brought to an event for which you were the lead photographer.
In any event, I think that you could have projected your message a bit more professionally. But that's simply my take on this posting. |
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Sefton Ipock, Photographer
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Selma | CA | | Posted: 4:09 PM on 05.06.04 |
->> The topic of this post reminded me of an episode of "Just Shoot Me". Elliot, the photographer, won an award for a fashion photo with a carnival atmosphere.
Turns out he didn't take the photo, a monkey grabbed the camera and hit the button when he wasn't looking and got a better shot than he did.
He felt awful that he was out done by a chimp, and didn't want to accept the award because it wasn't his photo.
Lets see that guy train a monkey to have an understanding and respect of copyright. |
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Erik Markov, Photographer
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Kokomo | IN | | Posted: 4:17 PM on 05.06.04 |
| ->> My only question is... can a monkey "chimp" better than a person?? |
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Mike Pittman, Photographer
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Raleigh | NC | USA | Posted: 4:56 PM on 05.06.04 |
| ->> Reminds me of all those I've known who say, "with the equipment today, all you have to do is point the thing in the right direction and let it do the rest." I guess that's why this newfangled computer I have has been churning out New York Times best sellers week after week. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 5:11 PM on 05.06.04 |
->> C.J. is right, Mr Adams was trained in music - the zone system is based on music scales.
I wanted to work as a Technical Sales Rep for Polaroid in the 70s. I was selling for a dealer and the first question they asked: "Got a college degree?"
As for the guy interviewing you, unless it was a "gotta have" job, I wouldn't feel too bad if you didn't get the job. Unless he shows you his Pulitzer,.... well,,, you get the
"Ahhh...not yet " I replied.
"Call us when you do. We're interested." I go back to school and get a degree in business from the University of Iowa (hey - Big 10 -no slouch here;) )
I call em up -get interviewed and get my pick of two territories.
After they hire me, I asked "Why was the friggin college degree so Important?"
"Simple," they answered. "It proves people can complete something they start.
When they needed someone with serious commercial view camera experience, they hired a guy without a college degree, but 25 years worth of experience.
The college degree thing isn't about education so much as it is a filter. Isn't fair, and when they want to change the rules, they do. Get a degree - journalism or whatever.... unless you have 30 years experience, or own a Pulitzer, it's really uphill without it.
As for the guy with the "I can teach a monkey to shoot" whoever said that the guy probably wanted to pay monkey wages may be right:. This much for sure: If you had gotten the job, methinks you would have been very unhappy very quickly. Bosses with that attitude would be hell to shoot for imho. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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