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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Gannett and US Presswire
Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 7:32 PM on 09.19.11 |
->> There are supposed to be meetings today at the various Gannett properties this week to discuss the US Presswire integration. If you're involved or have knowledge about those meetings, please let us know here or, if you prefer to remain under the radar, contact me via email at myfirstname@mylastname.org.
--Mark |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 7:33 PM on 09.19.11 |
->> Sorry, that should have referred to "this week" rather than "today."
--Mark |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 2:10 PM on 09.20.11 |
| ->> Why? |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 4:18 PM on 09.20.11 |
->> Brad,
I write a business column for the National Press Photographers Association. Gannett's acquisition of US Presswire is significant, not only to USPW freelancers, but also to Gannett staffers, who might be displaced in favor of $125 per assignment USPW shooters.
If anybody can send me any info, it would be great.
--Mark |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 9:54 PM on 09.20.11 |
| ->> Ahh I see. Probably should be disclosed that you are looking to use comments here as a "source" as opposed to just off hand comments made in a forum otherwise thought to be somewhat private. Just sayin.... |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:09 PM on 09.20.11 |
| ->> brad, I guess most of the journalists on this site know mark writes that column...I guess you didn't notice the 10 "huh's?" you got? there was a reason for that....good god. |
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Brian Tietz, Photographer
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Fort Myers | FL | USA | Posted: 10:13 PM on 09.20.11 |
->> Brad, Mark is a highly respected professional and advocate in the industry, and this forum is anything but private.
Just sayin ... |
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Brett Clark, Photographer
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Elizabeth City | NC | USA | Posted: 10:20 PM on 09.20.11 |
| ->> First off, who would EVER consider their comments in this forum private. Second, Mark is a well respected journalist with a great column I count down the days till it publishes, I think he has better "sources" as you call it than a comment on this forum. Third, have you not seen the 4 full forums on the US Presswire issue. I think you need to get your head out from in between those two pillows. |
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Darren Carroll, Photographer
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Cedar Creek (Austin) | TX | USA | Posted: 10:25 PM on 09.20.11 |
->> Brad, just FYI... This forum is anything BUT "somewhat private." There are *a lot* of non-members who are very influential in this industry who read what's written here, and if they don't, and it's in their interest to know about what's being discussed, you can be sure that they'll hear about it from someone else who does. I have a feeling you'd be very surprised if you knew who was reading here and, more to the point, how quickly discussions and comments, particularly on a topic as important as this, get around.
On a completely different note, Mark Loundy has been a member here for close to a decade; his column is well known throughout the business, and his reputation on this site has been established as beyond reproach through years of business-oriented posts on this message board. Anyone who didn't/doesn't/wouldn't immediately know why he'd be interested in gathering information about the heretofore relatively (and mysteriously) secretive U.S. Presswire acquisition by Gannett, and what he might use that information for, really needs to do a little homework. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 10:41 PM on 09.20.11 |
->> Loundy writes a column?!?
(Kidding, of course, I actually read it sometimes) |
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Scott Miller, Photographer
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Sorrento | FL | | Posted: 7:33 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad,
Like many have said, Mark writes a column that appears for NPPA.
And as Darren points out others read the SS boards who are not members.
I had been reading SS boards since it's inception while I was a Director of Photography and Art Director at Golfweek and it's parent company. (Obviously, I have since joined SS.) Reading the boards was a good way to see who was out there, and not only what kind of shooter they might be, but what kind of person there were (ie professional or GWC).
Meaning are they someone that just throws out comments with out any knowledge or are just generally a moron.
Not saying any of the above is pointed at you, but it is something for everyone to think about when they post in an OPEN forum.
If you don't want it repeated, don't say it in front of a crowd - or on an open forum. |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 9:38 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Well, I kind of knew the answer when I asked it. And yes I am aware that this isnt really a private discussion forum. I had however read 4 threads which basically pounded uspw and its way of doing business....with many incorrect and misleading statements about what USPW does or doesnt do (including yours Chuck). USPW didnt invent that business model, and yes I can understand how the whole shoot on spec idea contributes to our own demise. Problem is, there isnt an option out there for what might be otherwise a fantastic shooter to work his/her way into this field that is more practical than shooting for AP/Icon/USPW/Getty/Southcreek et al. Currently the only real upgrade path that is available is
that one.
I feed my family exclusively via photography. Do I make more on other aspects than the sports part? Certainly. Do I parlay my sports photography into increased revenues in other aspects? You bet.
When you shop at Best buy, or Sears....not every item yields the same profit. Some, (big name electronics) for example yield very little profit. Yet by having those products, you are more likely to sell the high profit items to go with it. I make less on sports, and much more on a good portrait shoot or commercial shoot or wedding. Especially per hour. But that doesnt mean the sports photography end isnt important.
There are several causes for the lack of money in sports coverage. imo, no one company or cause is ultimately responsible. Considering the lack of available options, the disdain shown here for other professionals simply working their way thru the system is awful. Just because you are working for a paper for 30k a year doesnt make what you do any more important or successful than the full time working photographer who owns their own business and makes 150k via photography.....some of which comes from sports. But thats the attitude I see here all too much. We are all after the same thing. No one here is more righteous than the other. The spec shooters didnt build the system, they are just using the system that exists....pretty much the only system that exists as it stands right now to make your way into professional sports photography. You say there is no money in it....well thats their business if they want to try.
Oh and as for using comments here as a source, I guess thats fine, but I still think its better to say hey guys, I'm working on an article, anyone have any info that might help? Rather than just asking as a conversation thats all. If its actually more of "an open interview" then just say so. No big deal. Wasnt trying to start a ruckus on that...just figured that was where the original question was aimed, without him actually stating so. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 9:48 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad, Mark has rescued 187 cats from trees. His sperm is shaped like the majestic Pegasus. He was the one who helped Al Gore invent the Internet.
How dare you. |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 10:03 AM on 09.21.11 |
| ->> "His sperm is shaped like a majestic Pegasus" - both disturbing and absolutely hilarious at the same time. Thank you, I needed a good laugh today. |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 10:17 AM on 09.21.11 |
| ->> Damn it G.J.!!! I just snorted coffee all over the keyboard! |
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Luke Johnson, Photographer, Student/Intern
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St.Petersburg | FL | USA | Posted: 10:27 AM on 09.21.11 |
| ->> I wish I could make G.J.'s post funny twice. It deserves it. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:33 AM on 09.21.11 |
| ->> Brad, since you just had to bring my name into yet another rehash of the 200+ thread....I have to comment that if you are lumping USPW and Southcreek Global in with Getty and AP you are pretty much WAY off track. AP and Getty PAY for assignments, it might not be the best pay in the world but it's more than those other two "wire services" fork out. And for the record I stand by my previous statements. Everything I know about USPW came from guys that I have had personal discussions (face to face) with. As I noted previously, USPW apparently has a completely arbitrary pay system. They have people they actually pay for assignments and then the majority they do not. As far as Southcreek Global? All I know about them is that they sent me an email threatening to sue me because I made fun of them in a thread a couple of years ago....that's classy for sure. I'll let you get back to cleaning off your keyboard now. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 11:07 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad, you said, "...there isnt an option out there for what might be otherwise a fantastic shooter to work his/her way into this field."
Due respect sir (and this is not directed only at you as I hear that argument all the time) but I believe it may have been more accurate to say "onto the field" rather than "into the field" because the only thing USPW or Southcreek are going to get you is a credential and some elbow-rubbin'-time.
I've said it before and I'll continue to say it: Spec agencies are NOT a way into this field. If anything, I've seen them to be a roadblock to success in this field.
I hear the argument every week. I hear shooters for USPW, Southcreek and the like all the time saying, "Well I can get my stuff seen in SI and that's good exposure." It's nonsense. Yes, I said it out loud. Nonsense.
Anybody shooting for one of these wire services who believes that having their name in print with "US Presswire" or "Southcreek Global Media" next to it is going to BENEFIT them does not have a firm grasp on what types of conversations really go on when the spec shooter leaves the room.
I know that sounds like I'm being a jerk and that's not my intention at all, but I'm sorry, it's reality. I know several photo editors who specifically avoid using anyone who is associated with one of these agencies. This is unfortunate because I know quite a few spec shoots whose work is fantastic and who are very professional and quite capable of shooting at whatever the "next level" is supposed to be but they've been labeled as "spec shooter" or "the free guy" and therefor will never be paid to do it for real.
And this extends beyond National editors to your fellow shooters in any given local market too. Because I also know MANY shooters who will absolutely not give out the name of a spec shooter when one of their trusted clients comes calling asking for a recommendation for another shooter. It happens all the time. I get a phone call from a client asking for the name of a good shooter in another market or asking for the name of another shooter when I'm already booked on that date.
Do you really think I'm going to give them the name of someone I perceive as not valuing their work (or the industry) enough to charge a profitable rate? Is any shooter going to give a valuable client the name of someone that is willing to shoot for free or at a loss? (Luckily I know two guys who are GREAT businessmen and who, on occasion shoot on spec in a profitable way... I, admittedly give their names out all the time... sue me.)
It happens every day; spec shooters miss out on paying work because of their association with USPW and Southcreek and they never realize the damage they've done to their reputation. Spec shooters can mark this post as "huh" and "inappropriate" till their hearts' are content but the fact of the mater is it's the truth and I'm not as big of a jerk as I sound, but most of the spec shooters I know are young and just don't realize this fact and so I'm putting it out there in black and white.
**NOTE: None of this applies to shooting on spec for a rights' holder with the potential of making COMMERCIAL sales. But come on, really? Shooting on spec for a fraction of an editorial sale is just a ticket into the game and the media workroom... and media meals just aren't that good. |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 11:08 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Chuck as a member of a news organization, I'd think you'd be better at checking your sources...and not taking hearsay as fact. I've also shot next to a Getty photog who was shooting for them on spec.
USPW is a fairly young company, and as such I'm sure they have had changes in their pay structure as they progress. None of which is really any of your business by the way. But they do now pay all shooter an assignment fee for any and all jobs THEY assign. They do pay for expenses when the trip meets their criteria. Again, not that its any of your business...nor anyone else not party to that contract.
The fact that SC had to threaten you for making fun of them....is more a statement of YOUR unprofessional behavior than theirs.
In another thread you call a company the antichrist cause they dared to take pictures?? Time to get off your high horse. You are just a working photographer like the rest of us...no better no worse. Stop the pontificating. |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 11:21 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brian, problem with your position is, you still havent shown any other avenue available. Thats the issue. There isnt one.
As you said, there are fantastic shooters out there working for all these companies. Many use the so called exposure to their benefit outside of the sports arena...which you seem to be ignoring. Sure it'd be great to "demand" 500.00 per shoot. Actually the day rate I've been paid by several publications is more like 200.00. So now we are arguing about the difference between 125.00 and 200.00 (The rate one of the largest papers in the country pays me) to shoot the same game. Sorry dude...75.00 is not enough of a difference to start calling people names over. What rate is profitable by your definition??
The game changed as far as getting into/onto the field. Shooters wanting to break into the field now have different options than 5+yrs ago. You cant go back. You cant get there the old ways any longer. Like it or not, the reality is that under current circumstances the progression line happens to be via the spec houses...You cant get to the paying gigs without being able to present a portfolio and be well versed in captioning and transmitting...and that only comes from doing the job. The smart ones parlay that experience in other avenues of their photo careers as well. A fact you news boys seem to keep ignoring.
If I'm wrong and a better path exists...please enlighten all the members here with your recommendations. I'm sure many would relish another path....esp one that pays 500.00 per shoot. All ears here... |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 11:27 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad,
I'm not sure there's much I can add to my post. I thought it was pretty clear. You've apparently already convinced yourself that USPW and Southcreek are good for your career and I do, sincerely, wish you the best of luck with that sir.
-Brian Blanco |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 11:30 AM on 09.21.11 |
| ->> Its one thing to say that what others is doing is the wrong way. Quite another to offer a solution. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 11:35 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad,
I offer constructive advice all the time... but only when I believe the recipient is willing to listen to that advice. Again, I can see that you've made up your mind about USPW and Southcreek and I can see from one of your websites that you're a photography coach so you may already have it all figured out.
Best of luck. |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 11:38 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> The solution is you don't prostitute yourself by accepting a BAD DEAL.
Shoot kids images, shoot portraits, shoot weddings.
Brad, do you shoot weddings on spec and let the customer pick and choose the images they want for as little as 25 cents each? If you don't, then why would you do it for Presswire?
There is no doubt in my mind with the BS logic here that Presswire could charge the photographers $100 per game and people would still "shoot for them". |
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TD Paulius, Photographer
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Orland Park | IL | USA | Posted: 11:43 AM on 09.21.11 |
->> Having your wire service sell an image to a well known sports ezine, XXXX.com for $3.42 yielding a cut to you of $1.71 is a perfect business model for management. Now how does the man on the labor side who needs to feed his family feel about this? I think Liddy and Blanco try to convince many that this is not the best way to go and are hardly being d*cks about it (maybe sarcastic at times as in Liddy's famous comment on a FB page, "WTF, It's a rock!"). Their experience falls on deaf ears for many. Its your choice if you need that cred, but maybe you can gain field access easier by using the IFPO's Gold Press Credential Package for $200 or even the ANIS Universal Press Credential Pacakge for $300, renewable every 3 years. http://www.aipress.com/press.html
S you don't forget, mail before midnight!
As for Loundy, he is engaged in a business study of the acquisition and will write intelligently about it.
best regards |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 12:01 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brian et. al.
I think that one of the things that you and everyone else needs to realize is that not everyone who is shooting for USPW or any of the other wires is necessarily looking to become a staffer at XXXXXXXXXXXX. They aren't looking to 'advance' to the next level and for that matter what IS the next level if you are already shooting a professional/D1 event and getting published and aren't in the need or want of cash? The only 'next' level that I could see would be pay grade, take that off the table and what do you have left?
Maybe you're right if some 25 year old kid is looking at this as an entry into USAToday.... SI..... ESPNxxx.... But for the 50 year old wedding photographer, carpenter, plumber, etc, who has a full time gig 9-5 and is 'covering' games at night or on the weekend, these post become so much wasted bandwidth.
By the way I once heard that we are either part of the problem or part of the solution. By keeping the 'spec' shooters in the spec pool and not helping them out and into the 'paying' world (just talking about the fantastic ones) aren't you in effect helping the spec companies keep quality up? Thirty years from now when you are looking up at a smiling face in a white coat are you going to ask her if she worked as a stripper or call girl to pay for med school? Probably not.
Seems to me that the path we put people on is of more value than the one that brought them to us.
Full Disclosure: I don't work for any of the companies mentioned in these posts. |
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Brian Tietz, Photographer
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Fort Myers | FL | USA | Posted: 12:06 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad, take a deep breath, step back and look at the people you are trying to argue against.
These are legends in the industry, highly respected professionals, and extremely successful sports photographers. |
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Scott Miller, Photographer
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Sorrento | FL | | Posted: 12:08 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> "media meals just aren't that good"
Oh come on Brian you never got food poisoning from one... so that's a plus. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 1:02 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Eric,
Your first two paragraphs are 100% correct. There's nothing that can be said to the people who are content with simply gaining access to a game with a USPW credential and seeing their name in print; and that's, unfortunately, a good percentage of USPW's shooters. Agreed, the guys/gals who are quite happy to gain little more than photos of themselves on the sidelines to share with their Facebook friends are not who I was trying to reach with my post.
My post was directed at those, usually young, shooters who truly believe that "getting their name out there" as a spec shooter is a stepping stone to bigger and better opportunities. Some of them honestly believe this line and some of them just parrot it as a justification for taking up space on the sidelines to play with their expensive toys... but either way the logic is flawed.
As far as your third paragraph, you know I love you, but I'm having trouble understanding what you wrote; though I'm trying to understand it because it mentions strippers and white coats.
Maybe I'm just not over being called a "news boy" by Brad and I just can't focus... I'll re-read it. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 1:43 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Pretty sure Scott needed an extra belt of liquid reinforcement when you accepted my FB request so professing your love for me should put him over the edge this time.
To clarify:
If you were to find out that your MD (lets bring it closer to home as we both have families and make it a pediatrician) who was a 'fantastic' doctor put herself through med school by working as a stripper or call girl would you dump her just based on THAT. Nothing else. Shes a FANTASTIC doctor, you wife and kid like her, ONLY issue on the table is how she got to the finish line. Your move.
Tietz is right and much more to the point than me. No matter how good you may think the McRib is you're just never going to convert everyone to the goodness of pork.
p.s. Love you 2 |
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Brad Mangin, Photographer
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Pleasanton | CA | USA | Posted: 2:13 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad from the spring training home of the Mets:
You say this:
"Problem is, there isnt an option out there for what might be otherwise a fantastic shooter to work his/her way into this field that is more practical than shooting for AP/Icon/USPW/Getty/Southcreek et al. Currently the only real upgrade path that is available is that one."
Yes there is an option. Most of us are not fantastic. Most of us are quite mediocre. Not all of our dreams can be fulfilled. I wanted to be the radio play-by=play guy from the Giants. Did not happen. At 46 years old I am what I am, for good and for bad.
My option? Self respect. Integrity. Respecting the GREAT veterans who paved the path before me by trying my best to leave this profession in better shape than it was when I started in it many years ago.
Bottom line? I cannot tell you how many days I have spent like this past Sunday, at home, watching a local football game on TV in the screaming Candlestick Park light (Cowboys @ Giants). If I had taken the "opportunity" to be the FREE Bay Area Guy, like I was offered many years ago, I would have had the thrill of being there.
Because I am not the free guy, and because a real assignment did not come my way (maybe because I just aint that good) I stayed home, worked on my archive, watched the game on TV and played with my cats.
The good thing that comes out of my behavior? No matter what happens in the future I know I am NOT part of the problem. I can look at my heroes like Neil Leifer, Johnny Iacono, Mickey Palmer and others STRAIGHT in the eye and tell them I am doing my best. And that means more to me than the shitty 49ers lunch in the Curley Grieve room. |
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Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 2:15 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad, I'll offer you a solution that will lead to lots of paying photo gigs: Don't shoot sports.
Except for a handful of very talented and successful people, there obviously isn't any money in sports photography as a freelancer.
You probably think I'm being an asshole, but hear me out.
If you want to make money in photography, go find a niche that interests you and also needs filling and bust your ass to be the go-to photographer for that niche in your location. Look at ASMP's Find A Photographer database, and see what people in your area are doing. And do something else. Make contacts with marketing companies and graphic designers and advertising agencies. Read books. Look at lots of photos, and figure out what pleases your eye. Reverse-engineer those photos to figure out how they were made, and then figure out ways you can do them better. Find a mentor who is a successful freelance photographer. Join ASMP, and go to lots of their seminars. Read their book on best business practices. Shoot weddings. Shoot parties for Do you have kids? Because you're not going to be seeing much of them on weekends for the next couple years.
Yeah, it's not easy. That's why people take the shortcut, buy some gear, and start shooting for free for places like uspw, cal sport and shitcreek. Because they want to take photos, and think that somewhere down the line, that paychecks will start coming in. Guess what. They won't.
I started as a photo editor at The Sporting News in 2004, and the only real agency that was having people shoot on spec en masse was Icon. And since then, the three I mentioned have come along. You know why? Because there is tons of free labor, and there are a lot of people who will subject themselves to the contracts that they have. You think, "well, if I say I want to be paid, they'll blow me off and they have ten other people in my market who they'll call." Yes, they will call ten other people who will work for free. Doesn't that indicate that you will never make money as a sports action photographer?
You're right when you say that if you want to shoot sports, you are pretty resigned to shooting for people who will take advantage of you. So [profanity] em. Don't do it anymore. |
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Tim Cowie, Photographer
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Davidson | NC | USA | Posted: 2:37 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> "If you were to find out that your MD (lets bring it closer to home as we both have families and make it a pediatrician) who was a 'fantastic' doctor put herself through med school by working as a stripper or call girl would you dump her just based on THAT. Nothing else. Shes a FANTASTIC doctor, you wife and kid like her, ONLY issue on the table is how she got to the finish line. Your move."
If she has a pole in her examination room, she's my new doctor! |
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Brian Tietz, Photographer
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Fort Myers | FL | USA | Posted: 4:11 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Eric, for the record I wouldn't eat a McRib, even if I got one for free on the sideline of the Superbowl.
My point was that if the top people in the industry are telling you what you are doing is wrong, maybe you should listen to them. They are the top people in the industry for a reason.
I did and it was by far the smartest thing I have ever done for my career. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 4:25 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Why are we still arguing the legitimacy of using USPW as a stepping stone? ... when in light of the purchase by Gannett ... there is a much larger issue at hand ...
There is the distinct probability that many of our comrades will find the need to leave the industry altogether or severely modify their current status ... a great many have already paid their dues years ago and will probably have the rug pulled out from under them ... all because hundreds of folks thought it was no harm to anyone to shoot high profile games on spec ... or for little to no compensation ... only for someone else to reap the rewards in a multi-million dollar sale ...
Gannett did not buy USPW out of their fondness to help others ... they bought it to improve their bottom line by using the low cost images spec shooter can offer over the higher cost of using images from their current staffers ... it's not rocket science ...
If I am wrong on this ... Good ... I really hope I am ... I would be more than happy if that is the case ... but I really doubt that is the situation.
Mark was looking for accurate information on what is currently transpiring ... If you can help him with that ... please do so ... it's important to us all to get the facts ... no matter what they may be ... |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 4:51 PM on 09.21.11 |
| ->> Dear Brad, Wow. Yesterday I got called "mean" and was "defriended" on FB by a student because he called out a photo made by a two time pulitzer prize winner because he was ignorant of the way the man shot a photo. Today I get called a "news boy" and told I'm "pontificating". I dare say since I've been doing this for 37 years, starting out at a weekly newspaper and covering the worst assignments you can imagine and working my way up to a large newspaper I have the right to pontificate (plus I paid my $25 to bert). Brad, I don't know you. You obviously have it all figured out...but FYI, I don't go to games and shoot on my day off. I'm not getting paid=I don't go. Not to compare myself to Mr. Mangin, but I have the same policy as him. I can get a credential to ANY of the three DI major universities in my area to any sporting event. We have three within 20 miles of each other. (you actually might have heard of Duke and UNC in basketbal). I can also go and shoot minor leauge baseball whenever I want (you might have heard of the Durham Bulls) I can go to any game I want mainly because I've been working in this market for 25 years. the fact is, if I'm not covering a game I don't go as a fan boy. I'd much rather watch the game with a cold frosty beverage on tv at home (or in the stands at the Bulls) than go to the game just so I can say, "yeah, I shot that game" and get paid $1.26 for a postage stamp photo on a website that people see for all of three minutes. since you obviously must have misunderstood what I said in the previous post, I will say it once again. unless you're calling me and a few of my friends liars I stand by the USPW statements. it wasn't hearsay, those things came straight out of, I shall use the word "disgruntled" photographer's mouths. as far as SCG...well, that whole interchange with them a couple of years ago still has me laughing. but I understand how you want to take up for them since you're an "employee". and sure I have a full time job with benefits. I'm not going to ever be rich. I love my job. I WANT other photographers to LOVE their jobs but many of them CAN'T and DON'T anymore because the value of their work has been devalued by people like you who are just happy to be at the "big" game working for a stale sandwich and whatever gatorade bottle they can grab while walking past the bench. No thanks, I'll keep my day job. and of course, pontificate away. best wishes, your hero, chuck |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 5:05 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> There is something very cathartic about whining and complaining about how good it used to be in the old days and isn't today.
Together we no longer feel alone.
Kübler-Ross' Stages of death seem to be playing out here on Sports Shooter. The fives stages are: 1)Denial, 2) Anger, 3)Bargaining, 4) Depression and 5) Acceptance
We seem to be floating around the first 4 for the most part. Those who are at stage 5 have moved on and no longer comment. I guess I am stuck on Depression. I loved shooting sports, but just don't find that many willing to pay as they did years ago.
Sure I can find other avenues to make money as a photographer and I have, but when you are good at sports photography and loved doing it you do miss being paid for your work.
I think what Mark Loundy is helping make sense of is the stages of this industry coming apart. Think about it for a minute as someone running a business. Do you pay your family top dollar to do a job you can get someone to do for next to nothing--remember you are trying to stay in business and your overhead continues to rise (healthcare for example) and the competition doesn't have to use your family.
Would you pay your present staff photographers to cover these Div 1 and Pro sports when you can get coverage for these events for a very small percentage of your present cost of the staff guy?
I think the hand writing is on the wall. Instead of getting your portfolio together or resume even you might want to look at another career.
By the way SOME of those buying those images for $1 or $2 are photo editors who were former photographers. Sounds to me like the family connections are not that good any more. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 5:34 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Chuck, bubala, you know I love you deeply and almost always agree with your posts. That being said, I'd like to introduce you to a good friend of mine. He/she can help you:
http://bit.ly/11vXks
Stanley:
"Would you pay your present staff photographers to cover these Div 1 and Pro sports when you can get coverage for these events for a very small percentage of your present cost of the staff guy?"
I have an answer for your question that would likely get me a lot of "Informatives" and an equal number of "Inappropriates," the former from my colleagues at newspapers (plus former newspaper shooters and staffers at wires) and the latter from folks who work for USP.
What would be the point? The battle lines were drawn a good bit ago, and as of yet I've seen little defection on either side.
So it goes ... |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:40 PM on 09.21.11 |
| ->> thanksGJI'lltakeitunderadvisement.justliketherestofthesolidadviceireceivefromgoodolesportsshooter.com |
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Sid Hastings, Photo Editor, Photographer
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St. Louis | MO | United States | Posted: 5:48 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Try as I might, I still don't get how this purchase works on a scale for Gannett for anything other than USPW's existing sports topics. And while Gannett does have metro papers that cover pro and D1 sports, that kinda work is only a small slice of what most of Gannett's local photo departments shoot.
Maybe they can extend that franchise to local colleges or prep sports, but I have difficulty conceptualizing how it might work for news, features or other topics -- I guess I have a hard time seeing a lot of USPW contributors signing up to shoot the owner of the local hardware store on spec for the next progress edition of the Gannett paper in, say, Coshocton, Ohio.
The issue as it relates to major sports is one thing, but it would seem hard to apply that on a micro local scale for local papers and websites.
----------
PS -- I'm not picking on Coshocton, I like Coshocton, I grew up next door in Holmes County. It's just a good example of the kind of market that I don't really see this deal having a lot of impact on. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 7:15 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Mangin -- thanks for your post. (You doing a TX barbecue trip this year? I'd like to join up with you guys if you do).
Gerry, thanks for your humor. (I'll see you somewhere again soon, I"m sure)
Brian Tietz -- I wish we got something as fancy as a McRib at the Super Bowl, however it is usually a still-frozen turkey sandwich, drink and cookie.
And, now we know the un-answerable question:
What thread can bring more polarization and posts than Nikon vs. Canon? |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 9:30 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Brad and other USPW shooters-
Go to a high school game instead of a college game. You'll make more; you will no longer be known as the "Southcreek" or "US Presswire" or "Cheap" shooter.
All of those terms are derogatory because what you're doing is undercutting everyone else and asking for recognition of your talent.
Go to a high school game and post to your blog. Sell event photos. Post them on FB. After your reputation recovers, people will let you be their FB friend, or even like you - so they'll see them.
When they see that (A) they like you more and (B) you're not going to undercut them if they refer someone to you and (C) you have good work, you'll start getting referrals occasionally. You'll also take a profit, and find out what working in photography is like - it's not a huge amount of shooting people in the limelight, it's a lot of work, it's hard, and you have to take opportunities when you find them. And by opportunity I don't mean making a bigger mess of the industry by being "that guy". That removes opportunity.
That said, I shoot a lot of high school and weddings. The local shooters respect me more than the USPW and cheap shooters because I'm treating them with respect. Several are *actively looking for agencies that need a photographer* because they like me. That doesn't happen by undercutting. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 9:31 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Should be:
Several are *actively looking for agencies that need a photographer* to recommend me to because they like me. |
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Robert Seale, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 9:58 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> Mr Barr states: ->> "Brian, problem with your position is, you still havent shown any other avenue available. Thats the issue. There isnt one."
You are absolutely correct.
I was a staffer at several big newspapers and a national sports magazine. I shot lots of games, the Super Bowl, World Series, Final Four, NBA Finals, blah, blah, blah, etc....everything-for over 11 years, and I have over 250 covers to my credit. I know just about every shooter and editor in the industry, and am very good friends with most of them.
Do you know how many "games" I've shot since I left my staff job in 2006?
I can count them using only 2 hands.
You see, the work is just not there. So it doesn't matter how many games you shoot for free to "make a name for yourself."
So Barr's probably thinking now....wow, this guy must suck. He's got all that experience, and he's not getting calls for paying sports action gigs. Yes, perhaps that is the case. (I'd show you my sports action portfolio section on my site, but I removed it years ago, because it MEANS NOTHING TO ANY OF MY CLIENTS.)
Maybe I do suck. In that case, I'll just list the names of 20-30 former colleagues I used to shoot on the sidelines with who are in the same boat. They are out there, all experienced, all trained professionals, all waiting for the phone to ring, they're better than you can imagine, and they are all going to get the call for the paid gig before anyone at Presswire, trust me. If it were still a viable business, don't you think we would still be doing it?
The problem is, you've eliminated your own future. There is no working your way up - there is no advancement, because the 3-4 free agencies are giving away what used to be a paid commodity. Congratulations! - you get to hang out on the sideline - but you'll never advance to the level of making money at it - and if you're shooting for any of these entities, you are part of the problem.
Free labor, as part of an integrated business plan worked well for southern land owners prior to 1863, too. The amazing thing is, no one is forcing anyone to do this. You have freewill. You guys are slaves of your own stupidity.
Unless you are a team photographer or you work as a newspaper staffer, there is no way to make a living in sports action photography. That is the cold hard reality.
Not everyone gets to do what they want to do. Not everyone gets a trophy in the real world. Brad wanted to be a play-by-play guy, and I want to be Steely Dan's drummer - but it ain't gonna happen.
What can you do? What is the path or avenue?
Divorce yourself of the idea that there is any money in sports.
Find clients who have money to spend.
Work like hell to keep them.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
Better yet, everyone at USPW, SC, etc. - just keep doing what you're doing. While you're chasing the dream of being a big shot sports photographer, like a dog chasing cars.....I'll be chasing Fortune 500 companies who value what I do.
Knock yourself out. |
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Dave Einsel, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Houston | TX | United States | Posted: 11:06 PM on 09.21.11 |
->> What Robert said x 2.
I took sports action off of my website several years ago for exactly the same reasons. There was no money in it. As an independent businessperson who makes 100% of my income from photography it makes no sense to pimp the fact that I am Hall of Fame POY winning, SI published, Super Bowl, World Series, Final Four, Olympics experienced photographer though I made my bones doing it for a long time.
I did it, I loved it, I still do it when clients put money on the table but it constitutes less than 10% of my income. I wish it was different but it is not.
Like Chuck, I too have season credentials for the pro and college teams in my area but unless I am being paid to be there I sit at home with friends, grill dead animals and watch the action with a cold beverage from the comfort of a soft chair.
As a DOP at a major newspaper, if you sat across my desk with a portfolio of killer action from high school games I would not hesitate to PAY you to shoot HS sports or even some college games for the paper. If you had average pictures, even from pro games, I would not.
I don't begrudge anyone from chasing their dream. Just make sure you have a Plan B because when baby needs new shoes or the mortgage is due $100 per game is not going to cover it. |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 1:29 AM on 09.22.11 |
| ->> Robert, I can't mark your post informative twice, so I will just bump it up with an "Amen!" |
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Jeff Lewis, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 1:40 AM on 09.22.11 |
->> All you youngsters, listen to Robert Seale and Dave Einsel. Trust me. There is no money in shooting action sports anymore. Be smart, open your eyes, and see the truth. Find a way to make a living getting paid with your camera and exploit that. I'm not saying to leave the sports photography industry, you just need to figure out a way.
Once you are married and have a car note and mortgage, you will understand what I'm talking about.
Jeff |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 1:58 AM on 09.22.11 |
->> Brad-
Don't put that trash in my e-mail. |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 7:32 AM on 09.22.11 |
| ->> So if no money to be made why is it wrong for someone to shoot it for free because they want to? |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 8:16 AM on 09.22.11 |
| ->> I've been waiting for that question to be asked Stanley. I will probably get flamed, but oh well. I've come to the harsh realization that I'm not going to make much money shooting sports, so apart from my Portrait/Wedding photography I use photographing football as my "fun" photography. I don't like it...but prior to getting into sports I was disillusioned about the income someone can make. I was disappointed by what I've learned from being around this genre of photography. So now I use my Ducati 1098 and photographing NCAA or NFL football as my sanctuary once a week to get away. The only person I have to answer to is my wife when I want new equipment. :) |
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Darren Carroll, Photographer
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Cedar Creek (Austin) | TX | USA | Posted: 8:16 AM on 09.22.11 |
->> Stanley,
Could the answer to your question possibly be that it's because people are shooting it for free that there's no money to be made?
Stand up for what you're worth, make people pay you to shoot, and if they don't want to, make them hire one of those dozen other guys standing in line with less talent than you. There's a reason they called you first--because they think you're better than the guy behind you. If they want free, let them get what they paid for and make them pursue mediocrity. Don't give away your talent.
Don't be "that guy." Lather, rinse, repeat.
That's what's wrong with it. This ain't rocket science. |
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