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What do you guys think?
Kenny Barto, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Vernon | CT | USA | Posted: 11:50 AM on 09.10.11 |
->> So, I wrote this article after an experience I had at our first football game here at CCSU. I guess I'm just looking for some advice on where to go before it's printed on Monday.
http://centralrecorder.com/2011/09/09/seriously-who-does-that/
Where it talks about Kenny Horton giving me the three ball gesture...the photo is here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/centralrecorder/6111042612/in/set-721576275872... and the story behind that is he was arrested the day before...but they won't let me put that in because "it implies that he can't go out after being arrested" which is perfectly fine.
I guess I also want to hear similar experiences as well...I mean, if you just watch a game that involves BCS schools on ESPN, do you EVER see someone giving the bird to the camera? What makes ME any different? |
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Nick Adams, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Galesburg | IL | | Posted: 12:07 PM on 09.10.11 |
| ->> Was it because you were using a fish eye lens? |
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Melissa Wade, Photographer
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Boston | MA | USA | Posted: 12:10 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> It sounds like you were shooting for the school newspaper. Why would you prompt the students - "when I prompted them with a “raise the roof” gesture, even when it wasn’t time for them to cheer" - to cheer? To me, that is worse behavior than the fan's.
As far as the individual giving you the finger, perhaps he has higher journalistic standards and wanted to make your image unusable. It isn't uncommon behavior for someone college age.
I'm suprised that the editor that objected to the Horton line (an objection I understand as it has ZERO to do with your story) didn't also object to the "presumably intoxicated" bit as the individual does not appear drunk in your image.
The real line I object to is the "And that's EXACTLY what I did here." following "But, as a photojournalist my job isn’t necessarily to get the most politically correct photo, it’s to show people in their true colors, and in their true environment." You orchestrated the image. That is unethical. Also not really necessary. It is hard to get a truly real shot of fans except after big plays because as soon as they notice the camera, they'll put on an act w/o any prompting from you. |
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Nick Adams, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Galesburg | IL | | Posted: 12:19 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> I just read what you wrote in the first link and I'm honestly glad that guy gave you the finger, ruining your "prompted photo."
Next game wait for the fans to really cheer and you will capture a real moments without anything rude fingers.
Here is NPPA's code of ethics -http://nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/ethics.html |
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Kenny Barto, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Vernon | CT | USA | Posted: 12:26 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> Perhaps I should clarify a few more things...
The students ALWAYS bug me to take photos of them. I usually don't, for this reason...but the new 11-16 F/2.8 made me want to give it a shot...
As I was walking towards the student section, a few students pointed me out, and I acknowledged them by doing the "raise the roof" thing, but it wasn't as obvious as you'd think, it was more ME acknowledging THEM that I was going to take a photo with me using one hand and with my palm faced towards the sky and snapping my wrists twice.
It wasn't orchestrated, it was timely, and perhaps I should clarify that in the article. This was between plays during a drive, where the team was at about the 40 yard line coming towards the endzone, so I needed to find a spot in the endzone anyways.
I'm unsure of where it's typical behavior for someone like that...In my time spent at UConn games, and other college football games, Division 1, 2, or 3...whenever there are cameras around, people have usually been more than happy.
Even ESPN orchestrates their video if you think about it. They have a guy tell the students during a timeout that they're going to shoot them when they come back from the break, and when they come back from the break, the guy nods and the section starts cheering. That's worse in my mind, and I NEVER see someone give them anything inappropriate.
PLEASE keep the comments coming...it'll really help me modify the article into what I really want it to say... |
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Andrew Nelles, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | usa | Posted: 12:31 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> Yeah no kidding, manipulating a situation like that isn't alright, I was shocked to read "when I prompted them with a “raise the roof” gesture." It's a football game, wait a few min and try to get some genuine reaction. I usually put the cameras down if it looks like the students are putting on an act for me and that's without my prompting.
About the main point, the finger guy, honestly it happens frequently in those situations. Shoot more later, or find a different group. Not a big deal in my opinion. |
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Kenny Barto, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Vernon | CT | USA | Posted: 12:50 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> I guess I really overwrote that part to the point of which you guys aren't understanding it correctly...read my previous response for clarification.
But, I appreciate the responses...I will make the necessary changes for print, whether or not you are GLAD he gave me the finger. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 1:21 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> Drunk? You can back that up RIGHT? Because if you can't you may want to reconsider calling someone who is exercising their First Amendment rights a drunk simply because you don't agree with them or like their expression.
Also this CAN'T be the first time you've been flipped off at a game, is it? Are you REALLY thinking of lowering the standard of the publication to this level? Any fan who may want to make the student paper has only to give you a one finger salute?
I don't know what camera you were shooting, on my bodies there is a little button next to the viewfinder with an icon of a trashcan.... I would have used the same finger execute my rights.... |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:30 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> "as a photojournalist".
yeah, you might wanna remove this part first. you lost that when you "prompted" the crowd. also, you might want to rethink saying that guy was "presumably intoxicated", did you give him a breathalyzer? was he arrested? in fact, your whole "article" makes you look like a whiny little kid. if I was your editor I wouldn't publish it. so some guy shot you the finger? really? and you feel it should be a column or "news" article?
Lemme put it to you this way...
"My question is, how do you be so stupid? Do you realize that now your peers and your professors see that you are being a whiny little twit at the CCSU football game? Do you realize that not everyone thinks that your article might come off as being, well kind of, silly?"
and something no one else has mentioned IF you are foolish enough to put this article in the paper....be prepared....since you obviously haven't done this often..I wouldn't be surprised if the next time you "prompt" the crowd the whole group doesn't give you the one fingered salute....in fact I bet they'll do it without you even asking. move along. there are many more things you need to work on (like journalism ethics) than trying to jam it this to that guy. have a nice day. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 1:58 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> Remember, as I once told a publisher I worked for ... You asked what I thought ... so I will tell you exactly what I think ...
I too am wondering what we are teaching in the "journalism" curriculum at our institutions these days ... Journalists are NOT supposed to be "prompting" anyone ... they are to be the eyes and ears of their readers/viewers/listeners chronicling and reporting the facts as they occur ... not "directing" or becoming the news ... responsible journalists can NEVER presume anything ... very good journalists don't even "allege" facts ... they only report verifiable, documented facts ... otherwise you are only spreading lies, rumors and innuendo ... none of which are of any value, benefit or worth to those you are reporting for ...
Sorry, but your whole article is useless, senseless and devoid of credibility ... even as an editorial opinion piece the story fails ... I know that is a harsh assessment ... but I can see no other way to describe it other than what it is ... |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 3:10 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> On October 9, 1972 near the end of a veritable butt-whooping of the Oilers by the Raiders, a Monday Night Football camera zoomed in on what appeared to be a sleeping fan. Howard Cosell said something to the effect that this was indicative of how exciting the came was - just as the fan flipped the bird.
That's NATIONAL television. Live.
Don Meredith, from the booth, didn't skip a beat and noted that they fan though they were number 1.
Google it if you don't believe me.
A few years back, Sports Illustrated ran a fairly lengthy article on the subject of that gesture. You are far from the first to experience it.
If one of the icons of sports broadcasting can brush off such an event that occurred live on national television, do you really want to publish such whiny drivel?
Your attempt to deflect criticism by downplaying your statement that you prompted the crowd rings hollow when you note that one student did not "oblige" your request.
Get over it. That fan (your quotation marks are unnecessary if not inappropriate)isn't there for your benefit. He's not there to play along with your requests or to help you test your new toy.
I'm baffled that you take any offense - let alone the great umbrage you are displaying - at the guy "ruining" your shot. You took a sequence of rather mundane fan shots - and are throwing a shoe because 1 kid, in 1 frame flipped you the bird. For Pete's sake, it's not like he threw the bird into a frame that cost you a Pulitzer.
I sincerely hope that you have something else to fill that space with.
I'll leave you with this. The article does not make him look bad - it makes you look bad. |
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Tommy Metthe, Photographer
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Abilene | TX | | Posted: 3:23 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> "Even ESPN orchestrates their video if you think about it. They have a guy tell the students during a timeout that they're going to shoot them when they come back from the break, and when they come back from the break, the guy nods and the section starts cheering. That's worse in my mind, and I NEVER see someone give them anything inappropriate."
I wouldn't exactly use TV, especially ESPN, as a shining example of journalistic ethics.
Chalk this up as a learning experience in journalism ethics, your job is to be a fly on the wall, not a fly in the soup. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Ric Tapia, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 3:35 PM on 09.10.11 |
| ->> Can I have that 5 minutes of my life back, PLEASE! |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 3:53 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> Looks like the link has been removed so I'll address the points made so far...
"Even ESPN orchestrates their video if you think about it. They have a guy tell the students during a timeout that they're going to shoot them when they come back from the break, and when they come back from the break, the guy nods and the section starts cheering."
ESPN and other broadcast group is not practicing journalism when they are broadcasting a game, they are providing entertainment to a mass audience. It is a conditioned response around the world -- if you stick a camera in the face of a spectator at a game, they will cheer in a rabid frenzy.
"As I was walking towards the student section, a few students pointed me out, and I acknowledged them by doing the "raise the roof" thing,..."
A simple wave or nod as walked by was all that was necessary. Reread Mr. Liddy and Mr. Miller's posts as they sum up my thoughts as well. |
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Matthew Jonas, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Evergreen | CO | USA | Posted: 4:33 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> Part of being a photojournalist is the ability to edit your work into something that tells the story succinctly. Not every picture tells a story. I'm glad you made this mistake in school. Learn from it and move on.
I always think to myself before posting (in my best management voice), "maybe you shouldn't bring me every little piece of trash you happen to pick up." - Fight Club
Too Harsh? |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 8:07 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> From the blog post:
"I prompted them with a “raise the roof” gesture, even when it wasn’t time for them to cheer."
...and from an earlier post here:
"I acknowledged them by doing the 'raise the roof' thing, but it wasn't as obvious as you'd think, it was more ME acknowledging THEM that I was going to take a photo with me using one hand and with my palm faced towards the sky and snapping my wrists twice. It wasn't orchestrated, it was timely"
If prompting a crowd of people to cheer, "even when it wasn't time for them to cheer," isn't orchestrated, then what, exactly, WOULD you consider orchestrated? |
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Paul Hayes, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Littleton | NH | USA | Posted: 8:32 PM on 09.10.11 |
| ->> Just to add to the chorus. I never, ever ask subjects to do anything differently when I'm documenting their actions for the paper (not including portraits, obviously). In fact just today, while shooting a farmers market today for a long-term project on small-scale farms, a guy asked me "Do you want me to move the awning to give you better lighting?" I politely declined. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 8:57 PM on 09.10.11 |
| ->> Ya know, I read threads like this and realize that I need to forget about the work for free nonsense, forget about the lay-offs, forget about digital ethics....we are doomed if this is the kind of idiocy the schools are producing. Mr. Barto, I know you're a kid but you just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper every single time you type on this thread. cut your losses. just tell us you took a hit of acid before writing the story...then chased it with some crack and a beer before starting the thread. and now your head is clear and you deleted your story and are headed to rehab. |
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Marty Price, Photographer
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Concord | NC | USA | Posted: 11:36 PM on 09.10.11 |
| ->> Wow, didn't get to read the actual link because I just got here and it is down, but from the quotes I see from Kenny's post I agree that this is an huge ethical problem. Being somebody who has had to deal with the television crews who orchestrate their images to meet a formula I am stunned that he would compare us to "them". I am surprised at the restraint that Chuck showed and I agree with him totally. |
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Andrew Nelles, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | usa | Posted: 11:50 PM on 09.10.11 |
->> I feel bad jumping on this again, but I have to say, even though you say "it was more ME acknowledging THEM" you're still manipulating the situation. You are encouraging them and thus becoming part of the situation. That's the problem.
I understand that in these situations it can be nearly impossible to not have some sort influence on the crowd, but hell, at least try to minimize it. Seriously, if I was in your shoes, the second students started pointing me out, I'd move on and look for a new group that hasn't noticed me yet. You should be doing everything possible to be nearly invisible.
I'm not even going to touch the intoxicated comment you made about the person in the photo. Libel? |
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John Korduner, Photographer
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Baton Rouge | LA | United States | Posted: 6:20 AM on 09.11.11 |
->> It appears the moral of this story is the lack of dedication exhibited by students these days. In my day, we would've worked overtime in photoshop to remove any offensive material, and replaced it with a peace sign or an aye o.k.
...and the old timers would put forth the effort to google cache the story before it was removed in order to publicly humiliate the violator on their blogs and deter others from replicating said mistakes!
...or they would privately mentor the advice seeker to effectively instill the importance of a fundamental ideology he is apparently unaware of... |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 6:53 AM on 09.11.11 |
| ->> Care to elaborate John K? Your post makes little sense. Sorry if I am having a hard time reading through the sarcasm, but I'm coming off a 14 hour day. |
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Nina Zhito, Photographer
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bay area | CA | | Posted: 10:59 AM on 09.11.11 |
| ->> Kenny, one of the things you will readily discover as you shoot more different things is that not everyone is happy to see the camera. Spot news scenes where emotions run high with accident survivors, public safety personnel, bystanders/ witnesses, grieving relatives can be very dicey. Your challenge is to learn how to comport yourself AND get the images (without staging anything) and facts that you need in that charged atmosphere, and to get them without burning bridges or hurting people. Just don't take it personally and move on to the next photograph to make. Firefighters in particular enjoy turning their backs to the camera or making a gesture with an indiscreet finger: It's a game -- if they are in the paper they have to buy ice cream for their Station. You'll learn how to let it roll off you. |
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Derek Montgomery, Photographer
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Duluth | MN | USA | Posted: 5:04 PM on 09.11.11 |
->> The way I always approached these situations when I was a staff photographer at the Duluth News Tribune was to NOT shoot people who yell at you to get a photograph. If you really need to get a good cheering photograph then hang around and wait for something good to happen on the field. When that happens there will be plenty of time when they won't be paying attention to you and will be instead cheering what just happened on the field. I never felt comfortable shooting people who beg for photos because the reactions just aren't honest celebration photos. They are cheering for you, not for the game, which is what you want to capture.
Having a camera in these situations is going to get some people fired up, but like Andrew Nelles said above, you have to minimize your influence. |
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Kenny Barto, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Vernon | CT | USA | Posted: 9:11 PM on 09.11.11 |
->> So, first of all, I just want to say that I am a Management Information Systems major in the School of Business at Central Connecticut.
That being in your minds, I will make my second point. In business, I was taught very early that it's better to admit that you are wrong, and make the steps to move on. It's never failed me before, so I figure why not try it here.
I have never taken a class on photography, photojournalism, journalism, etc. I am entirely self-taught, but, as you can see, I am really motivated to keep learning and keep developing my skills as a photographer.
So, right now, I just want to say THANK YOU to all who have posted. I have learned a valuable lesson that I will hold on to for as long as I live. I love what I do, and always will, even though I'm pretty sure you all ripped me one something larger than the state of Alaska.
As Chuck suggested, I will cut my losses, and I won't make any more posts. But, if anyone WANTS a response from me, please send me an e-mail through here. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 8:17 AM on 09.12.11 |
->> Nina wrote, "Firefighters in particular enjoy turning their backs to the camera or making a gesture with an indiscreet finger: "
Must be a new thing, Nina. Back when I worked at the student newspaper in college (yes, it has been a long while ago) and shot spot news, the firefighters were cool as hell. By spring of my freshman year many of them -- we had three districts -- knew me by name or on sight and would invite me in past the yellow cordon tape to shoot. Once inside, I always tried to stay back out of the way to get my shots, but there were times when some of the guys would encourage me to get closer. To my knowledge, none of the other student photogs got the kind of access, which came down to building a positive raptor with them. |
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Nina Zhito, Photographer
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bay area | CA | | Posted: 7:06 AM on 09.13.11 |
->> Clark... Yes, good-natured photo-avoidance tactics have been a staple in my community for the ten-plus years that I have been shooting there. The city's few photo-phobic veteran firefighters have a robust if quirky sense of humor and are indeed otherwise cool as hell. Maybe they just don't want to get ribbed back at the station and have to buy ice-cream ... and maybe its just more than a little fun to mess with the pesky press... and who-in-the-world-knows-why else?
We will all encounter the indiscreet finger and its variants --people who actively or passively resist being photographed--at some point. It is an inevitability for news and street shooters. Learning to be "invisible" --like gradually assimilating the profession's standards and values-- is part of the prized and hard-won body of knowledge that comes with carrying the camera, over time.
Kenny, check out Ken Kobre's text on photojournalism for good advice and more insights --technical and otherwise. It's a good one for the self-taught. Check out what Fred Larson did to shoot anonymously in S.F. |
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