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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Why keep the raw take?
Matt Cashore, Photographer
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South Bend | IN | USA | Posted: 6:16 PM on 07.18.11 |
->> Hi all- I am working on a long term digital asset management solution for my office. For my personal and freelance work I archive the entire take. I do this because...well, I think it's just the smart thing to do. Storage is cheap.
At my job, we archive selects only on Photoshelter but don't have a good long-term storage solution for the raw takes. I've been archiving them on hard drives that I buy with my own money simply because I can't conscience deleting photos for no good reason.
But I can't make a compelling (financial) case for exactly what the upside is in keeping raw takes. I know I will be asked by one or more of my bosses why we need to keep more than just the selects and I don't have a good response other than..."Well...'cuz." Everyone knows the cautionary tale of the Lewinsky/Clinton photo but that one in a million chance that someone who was in an otherwise throwaway picture will become famous (or infamous) isn't going to resonate with my higher-ups.
Anyone else out there had this discussion with the money folks? How did you convince them that it's worth an ongoing investment in hard drives or server space to keep photos that most likely no one will ever look at?
Thanks in advance. |
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Dave Einsel, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Houston | TX | United States | Posted: 7:08 PM on 07.18.11 |
->> It is not possible to determine today what might be important tomorrow, or next week, or next year. I keep my entire take, sort of. I usually rip through a shoot and delete images that are not in focus, lights didn't fire, eyes are closed, etc. Still, I am archiving 95% of what I shoot.
Are your bosses already saying to only keep selects or are you anticipating their response when asked for capital to store the archives?
I would be hopeful that an educational institution such as yours would see value in the historical record of the university. Maybe you could find a friendly history professor to help you articulate the advantage of having such a record.
If you are concerned with the budget, perhaps you could approach the library or IT systems directors and work out a partnership. They have the servers. You work for the university. They should be able to help you.
Good luck. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 8:55 PM on 07.18.11 |
->> Matt ... if you were shooting and processing film or chromes ... would your bosses have you throw out you negatives or slides because they cost too much to archive?
By comparison, digital archiving is so much cheaper than it was not long ago ... |
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Brian Dowling, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 9:33 PM on 07.18.11 |
| ->> 2TB hard drives are $150 now. I'd guess the average shoot would fit 175,000 images on that HD. I don't know how much you shoot, but that'd take me a few years to fill up! If they don't want to invest that money, then that's just really bad business. |
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Chris Large, Photographer
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Okotoks | AB | Canada | Posted: 10:29 PM on 07.18.11 |
->> Are you talking about keeping the "RAW" files as opposed to jpegs?
In my situation I shoot any where between 500 and 1000 images a day on any given tv show or movie. I shoot RAW & jpeg, make 2 separate backups and send a 3rd HD to the studio or network. Once I know they have copied the files to their servers I delete ONE of my back ups. I keep the other full back up for a year then delete the RAW, keeping the jpegs.
This keeps my overall storage within reason and allowing me some comfort zone....just in case......
The cost of a 1 or 2 T HD is so low that even if you spend a couple of hundred dollars a year just for your own peace of mind it is cash well spent. |
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Jeff Lewis, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 12:01 AM on 07.19.11 |
->> Drobo. Period.
I had the same problem a few years ago and then I was told by a few who are on this site to get a Drobo. I now archive every RAW frame I shoot and send my selects to photoshelter as hi-res jpg's. If the image is a portfolio image, I'll make it into a TIFF file and upload it to photoshelter.
Drobo is your answer..... and keep every frame. You never know when you might need something or when you need an out of focus frame to help identify whats going on in a focused frame.
Jeff |
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Nigel Farrow, Photographer
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Suffolk | UK | United Kingdom | Posted: 4:46 AM on 07.19.11 |
->> Re Lewinsky/Clinton photo, I wouldn't say that is a one off.
I always remember working for an agency around 20 years ago and having to go through contact sheets finding pictures of police involved in a case which was subsequently won on appeal watching the accused being led into the original court hearings around ten years before. The images we found ran in all the British nationals throughout the coverage.
More recently I went through a number of shoots from children's races that I covered at the start of this century finding pictures of competitors who have continued into the professional ranks of the sport. One is not just likely to be competing at next years Olympics he is a potential gold medalist and I am sure that an image of him competing when much younger will have a value if he is indeed selected. I edit widely but can't always guarantee that the obvious images are the ones that contain the people who will be of interest at a later date.
A couple of years ago I shot a picture for a university of their sports alumni. Among them were several people who had successful careers as competitors, the most famous probably being Sebastian Coe, now the chairman of next years Olympic Games organising committee. I doubt that at the time the university would have envisaged the level of success of any of them. At least with sport you have some kind of idea that the winners could go on to a top sports career but what is stopping an average competitor becoming the next Zuckenberg, Gates or Obama ? Just because they are not strong in one field does not mean they will not be successful in another and, whilst it may not be high profile in our world it may be important to the PR people when trying to promote the university in that area.
From your members page it sounds as though the client is Notre Dame, a university I had heard of before I even found these pages. Do they really not believe any of their students will become that successful ? That would be sad.
One other option is to persuade the university to allow you the right to market, including to them, any images not archived. In the least you may cover the costs of your backing up of the images. More likely they will think harder about the cost of obtaining such images from you and other sources and decide that $300 every year or couple of years is not that much (I'd always backup to two drives even if you don't go down the Drobo route) |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | | Posted: 8:06 AM on 07.19.11 |
->> Ask Dirck Halstead about keeping all your out takes, that is the whole shoot minus the technical rejects that Dave detailed.
I'll give you a hint, her initials are Monica Lewinski. It's a good story.
You never know what may be important further on down the road, particularly for the obvious 10, 20, years later, etc. |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Sycamore | IL | USA | Posted: 10:11 AM on 07.19.11 |
->> I think Nigel made a great point: Ask your superiors if they do not believe any of the current students will become successful.
It should be easy enough to find Notre Dame alumni who have gone on to do great things. A few are mentioned here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Notre_Dame#Alumni
Does the university have photos of those notables from when they were students? If not, they are under-utilizing a powerful recruiting tool.
Photos of now-famous people = more top-notch students = more alumni donations = more money
As Mark Felt told Bob Woodward: "Follow the money" |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Sycamore | IL | USA | Posted: 10:33 AM on 07.19.11 |
->> I just took a minute to browse the Wikipedia article of one of Notre Dame's higher-profile alumni, Condoleezza Rice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice
The profile has a nice photo of her as an undergraduate at the University of Denver, but it does not have one of her as a graduate student of University of Notre Dame. That is a golden opportunity missed.
You may (or may not) have photos of her in your archives, but if you can't find them and get them into widespread circulation, the photos aren't doing the university much good. |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 10:58 AM on 07.19.11 |
->> Tell those cheap bastards that today's news is tomorrow's history and that they have a responsibility to future generations to save all that stuff.
You can also tell them that they have a responsibility to tomorrow's share holders not to dispose of images that could, in the future, be worth lots of money.
Tell them that someone might sue them in ten years time for throwing away revenue-generating information. That might scare them. |
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Stephen Brashear, Photographer, Assistant
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Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 12:27 PM on 07.19.11 |
->> Matt - Here is a link to the Dirck Halstead/Monica Lewinsky story http://digitaljournalist.org/issue9807/editorial.htm.
Another lesson from Halstead is that a good archiving system is also necessary. Images are not any good if they cannot be found. |
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Bob Nichols, Photographer
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Tipton | IN | USA | Posted: 2:01 PM on 07.19.11 |
->> Notre Dame should be able to find some loose change to finance your storage problems Matt.
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011110712007
July 12, 2011 - "SOUTH BEND, Ind. — The University of Notre Dame says its seven-year “Spirit of Notre Dame” capital campaign raised more than $2 billion for the private school." |
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Scott Miller, Photographer
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Sorrento | FL | | Posted: 5:15 PM on 07.19.11 |
->> Matt.... Early this year I purchased am Other World Computing 12tb raid 5 for just under $1300.. Been well worth the investment. Easy to use etc..
Now compelling reasons to keep an entire take:
1- When the Cam Newton story broke, I went back to my raw take and found he and Urban Meyer together on the sideline. He was a back up at best in the Capital One Bowl against Michigan. I also had he, Tebow, Dan Mullens and the other QB together in warmups... Both images were bought and used by ESPN on air in a piece they did prior to the BCS game.
2 - Another football game some one was looking for anything of a former FSU player. Photo wasn't worth transmitting on deadline or stock it was a throw away frame of a nobody helping make a tackle. Yet SOMEBODY wanted and bought it.
I realize those are sales and not something you need to worry about at Notre Dame, but when is the next Rudy coming through that some day somebody will want a photo of that was just of some damn walk-on no one cared about. |
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Matt Cashore, Photographer
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South Bend | IN | USA | Posted: 4:00 PM on 07.20.11 |
->> Thanks for the input on and off the message board. Got a few good laughs out of it all. I was hoping they might take the two billion dollars and air-drop hundred dollar bills over campus but it turns out they want buildings and scholarships and research-y stuff. Sigh.
I have some ideas for making my case. Yes, ND can afford a hard drive or two or ten million, but as with any large corporation if I ask for a ten hard drives, it's someone's job to say, "you can do it with five hard drives if you're a team player."
Thanks again. |
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Jim Colburn, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Omaha | NE | USA | Posted: 8:00 PM on 07.20.11 |
->> Ask for ten 1tb hard drives.
Settle for five 2tb hard drives. |
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