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Citizen journalist blocks photojournalist
Justin Edmonds, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 2:56 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> Chicago Tribune photojournalist Alex Garcia wrote an interesting blog post today titled "Hey, You with the iPhone" about an unnamed wire service photographer being disgruntled with an "amateur" who blocked his shot of Rod Blagojevich. http://bit.ly/r7bj6I
Garcia goes on to talk about how the size of a media outlet should determine who gets what positions:
"Being told to scram by a large media outlet is not a good feeling. My wife, also a photographer, was a photography student in Kansas when she found a great spot to photograph presidential candidate Michael Dukakis during a political event. Hours later, national media crowded around her position. Sam Donaldson of ABC News showed up with his crew at the last minute and saw the prime spot she had staked out. He asked her to move to another spot, and she did, although she was annoyed about it.
But in the end, she realized that it was for the greater good"
Really? I disagree. I believe that in a public space, if you get there first you have just as much of a right to that position as any other news outlet, no matter who they are. I have a hard time believing that he, or any other staff photographer, would give up their position to a larger media outlet in that situation. If I was there first I know I wouldn't.
Discuss... |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 3:08 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> Justin you're 100% correct.
The shooter who arrives first and stakes a claim (on public property) certainly has the RIGHT to that spot. There's no question about that.
I think what Garcia was talking about is the very common practice of shooters yielding a bit to the wires and larger daily papers who may NEED the shot a little more.
If someone is a student shooting for the experience or they are simply shooting for their Facebook page or for a Sportsshooter update then it's considered common courtesy to give a bit of a break to the wire shooter who has the world waiting for their images and HAS to get the shot.
NOBODY is saying that you HAVE to yield that ground, but it sure does help a lot and certainly goes noticed and appreciated. |
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David Brooks, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 5:39 PM on 07.13.11 |
| ->> When I was an photo intern I shot an NFL game. The sidelines were like a wall of cameras. A tv cameraman came up and said, "Guys make some room!" No one responded. I moved over to allow the cameraman room to shoot. There wasn't much space but I figured if he didn't mind he could squeeze in next to me. As the play came toward us, he stepped in front of me and even with a firm nudge to remind him I was there, he didn't move. Another photographer said plainly, "Never give up your spot!" |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 7:24 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> TOO many photographers walk around with this sense of entitlement. Sorry people, just because someone is with a "big" paper or "wire" service doesn't make them any more important than the photographer on staff at a small-midsize paper covering everything in their town. THAT photographer STILL has a job to do and unless there are marked spots by the people in charge, first come deserves the spot they get. If you want a good spot, don't wait til the last minute to arrive some place.
MANY times, these photographers don't even know (or care) who is "taking their spot" and they try to push someone out of the way.
It reminds me of an incident I witnessed several years ago at a concert here in NYC. The pit was going to packed with photographers, and one who thinks they are better than everyone else was spewing off towards a woman who "doesn't even have a real camera with a real lens" (the camera was a Nikon d80 with a non 2.8 zoom lens). All I did was laugh since I knew the photographer on the other end (the one getting yelled at) was an award winning photojournalist. Another time, there was a "new to the group" photographer who was being talked about by the others-because he wasn't going around bragging and remained quiet. This photographer has had-I believe-13 COVERS of Sports Illustrated and is currently on tour with one of the biggest bands in the world.
I personally will work with anyone who is nice-I have even shot sideways to accommodate another but if they then try to push me, block me or can't muster 1 or 2 words "thanks" or "thank you") I will never budge for them again. NICENESS goes A LONG way and photographers should learn this |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 7:27 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> It's not about "Oh, my paper is bigger than yours!"... It's about being respectful of those who have shown up early to set up, and not acting in a manner that causes others problems.
If you're throwing an iphone in front of someone's camera:
1. You probably won't get the shot in the fast-moving situation
2. You just kept someone else from getting a shot that is not for them but for the rest of the world to see.
The reality of the situation is that your blog or flickr account just doesn't work as a good distribution method unless you're one of the top few in the nation, and even then you're just on the level of a small newspaper - whereas wire services are published internationally. There's room for press because they are professionals at disseminating information, not because they feel self-important or just want the best seat in the house. They're there to work and usually couldn't care less about the warm fuzzies. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 7:30 PM on 07.13.11 |
| ->> For those of you who haven't read the linked article, it's relevant to note that Garcia's response is to a specific situation where someone put an iphone in front of a wire service guy's lens in a fast-moving situation. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 7:59 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> So not to stir the pot (too much).... What happens when the guy with the iPhone is actually shooting B roll video for a network? Had that happen this past fall. Saw someone walking around with a TRIPOD mounted iPhone at a 'media day' event. The person would walk up to a subject, plop down the tripod/iphone and conduct a small interview. When I asked what was up with the 'video' guy I was told it was part of the production crew getting B roll to cut into the broadcast.
Lesson reinforced, you can't judge someone by his or her gear. Doesn't matter if it's an iPhone or a $50k HD ENG rig or a something-D-something. As far as shooting for one's blog goes. There are blogs on the net that get more readers in a day than some mid size papers. The bottom line is that there is no reason to act like your other job is clubbing baby seals. We should all be able to play nice and club those who don't.
I can't wait to read the first posts about iPhones with 50mm Zeiss/Nikon lenses attached..... It won't be long now. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 8:36 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> I have been at WVU football games and have had security move me physically to let in ESPN camera crew and the geeky audio frosh.
All of the young shooters I encounter (and they seem alot younger than me nowadays), I encourage them to stand their ground and never give up their spot. PLUS, do not invade someone else's spot or angle. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 8:56 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> Well ... it may be the case in THIS instance Israel ...
When someone steps in front of my lens, I don't really care if they are from the NYT, AP, SI, or the subject in question third cousin, twice removed using a hammer and chisel to carve their likeness in a slab of limestone ... it's discourteous not to keep in mind those who are working in your proximity ... regardless of your employment status, job title, level of equipment employed or the name of the firm by which you are employed ...
... but ... I think if we are all completely honest here ... we could create an infinite list where the Big Time folks have hampered the efforts of the Little Guys far more often .... we've all run into those who feel because of their current status or the firm listed on their credential, they may feel they are more entitled to be where they are than the rest of the world ... it isn't just ignorant dim wits with cell phone cameras that are guilty of such actions ... the practice of an absence of common courtesy is not limited by any specific "class" ... it is expected of us all ....
Yes ... there should be a middle ground sort of equilibrium where all present receive equal consideration ... the perception of the level of importance for being present at such events should not be based upon equipment used .... or the quantity of circulation, this should not the criteria of importance or be the sole consideration ... There IS room for everyone ... if you are as polite as you wish others to be AND extend that courtesy .... that consideration will be returned ...
... not to mention that in such instances as the linked article ... John Q. Public has as much right to capture an image of Blogo with his iPhone as a Chicago Trib staffer would with a 1D or D3 ... though if you were reach around MY head and block my view while I am shooting .... don't be surprised if you return home with fewer digits on that hand and less technical gadgets in your possession .... |
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Michelle Hedstrom, Photographer
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Arvada | CO | US | Posted: 11:33 PM on 07.13.11 |
| ->> I think a lot of it is just common courtesy, which goes out the window with the sense of entitlement that some people feel. While fortunately I have yet to be shoved out of the way by someone who thinks they need to be where I am at that exact moment, if I want to move elsewhere, I always make sure I'm not blocking anybody, or at least making sure they're not taking a shot at the second I'm going to move. But that's just the way I am. I had several photographers get really surprised at a concert I shot about a month ago when I was uber careful how I was moving, and would tap them on the shoulder if I couldn't get around them. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 12:10 AM on 07.14.11 |
->> Early on, I can't begin to relate the number of instances where TV people stepped in front of and robbed me of my spot that I had staked out at an event. I finally had enough and just began standing my ground.
The latest incident has actually been several years ago now, but a TV guy asked if I would trade spots with him so he could have a better vantage point. I laughed at him and said, "get here early and you'll have your pick of spots."
Then I turned around and continued shooting. He acted like somebody had just kicked him in the stomach, walked off and whined to himself. I've also clearly warned TV people to back off and not invade my space when they started pushing. They always act surprised like, "I can't believe YOU would talk to me like that."
My feeling is if there is enough room to share without giving way to my space I have already staked out, then I really don't care. I will say the local TV guys in Evansville (yes, not a big market) have been some of the easiest to get along with and I want to compliment them here for that. |
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Mark Buffalo, Photographer
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Lonoke | AR | USA | Posted: 12:33 AM on 07.14.11 |
->> I agree that you have the spot, it's yours. Now at a big-time athletic event, the TV people are going to rule the world. As far as what Debra said, I shoot Razorback football for the Arkansas News Bureau and I've been lucky enough to be able to use a 300 2.8L lens for several games but I've also shot SEC football with a 70-200 and a 1.4 extender. I know it's not ideal but I have a job to do just like the guys with the 400s and I feel like I get decent enough shots with the equipment I have.
Mark |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 1:57 AM on 07.14.11 |
->> Butch-
I was just discussing this specific instance, not making generalizations.
When I'm around people who are greener than I am, I always do my best to be courteous to them, and I always try to be courteous to others whose photos really do matter more than mine, knowing that they've got a lot more on the line than me if we're at a big name event together.
Lots of people take offense at the idea that some photos matter more because of who takes them, but it's true - if I take a historically significant shot, I don't know what I'd do with it. Put it on my blog for my wedding and portrait buddies to gawk at? Probably so. And it's an unfortunate reality.
I don't think half the guys in town know my name because of my attitude on this, and while it's not good for business, I'd really just rather meet them when they're not in a hurry so I won't be taking time away from them when they need to spend it shooting. That's just how it goes being a very little fish in a medium-sized pond :) |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 1:59 AM on 07.14.11 |
->> People with phone cameras have absolutely no clue what is going on around them. I went to a concert a month or so ago and a woman in front of me kept holding her spiffy new Droid X up over her head to shoot video of the show. She seemed intent on shooting the entire concert on her phone and was totally oblivious to what was going on. I had to tap her on the shoulder three different times to ask her to put it down. She wasn't the only one doing this - hundreds of people were.
This woman would have blocked everyone's shot of Blago - guaranteed. And there are millions like her out there, at every event, large and small. And sometimes they get press passes... |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Northwest Missouri | MO | USA | Posted: 2:04 AM on 07.14.11 |
| ->> I think it's important to impart some etiquette in young photographers. They do need to know they're not permitted to step out when a big play happens. And they also need to know once you have your shot, look over your shoulder for colleagues who also need it. You might also want to look over your shoulder to be sure you're not about to knock over a table of fine China. These are lessons I've shared with my photo students. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 7:45 AM on 07.14.11 |
->> "I always do my best to be courteous to them, and I always try to be courteous to others whose photos really do matter more than mine, knowing that they've got a lot more on the line than me if we're at a big name event together."
Seriously ... extending courtesy doesn't have to mean taking a back seat either ... if you feel are not worthy to chronicle an event that may have historical significance, or consider what you are doing to be of less importance than those your are working alongside ... why even show up? With that attitude you are just confirming the sense of entitlement a few wrongly believe in ... There really is room at the table for everyone ... if EVERYONE agrees that no single entity deserves higher privilege to be there ...
"Lots of people take offense at the idea that some photos matter more because of who takes them, but it's true - if I take a historically significant shot, I don't know what I'd do with it. Put it on my blog for my wedding and portrait buddies to gawk at? Probably so. And it's an unfortunate reality."
Really? ... I'm sorry you feel that some photojournalists should be extended more privilege than others ... I have shared sidelines and press rows with all types of folks from all types of interests ... from Pulitzer Prize winners to soccer moms with cameras ... folks from dailies and wire services that serve millions to ... yes ... the guy that posts a blog from his mom's basement ... though I never worked directly for a large publication or major wire service I fail to see how the readers I represent should take a back seat to anyone else carrying a camera ... historical significance of the event notwithstanding ... If we are going to grant access based upon specific classification to benefit a certain few ... that's not freedom of the press ... that's simply satisfying the loudest voice ...
The whole point I was trying to make ... until working PJ's can be respectful and courteous to each other ... and not look down their noses at those working for smaller publications ... or try to intimidate or stifle the efforts of someone for using what they consider inferior gear ... they really shouldn't spend a lot of time crying the blues about some goofball with a cell phone ... glass houses and all that ... |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 9:50 AM on 07.14.11 |
->> I think we're all talking about two different scenarios.
Scenario #1:
A shooter from a smaller publication or a PJ student arrives early to stake out a claim in a prime spot at a news event. An hour later a shooter from a large publication, or wire, runs up and feels entitled to that spot and rudely muscles (or intimidates) his way in front of the shooter who was in place earlier.
I think we can all agree this is horrible and that the shooter who arrived earlier certainly has a right to that spot and that the "big-time" shooter is being a jack-wagon.
Scenario#2
A PJ student or photojournalism enthusiast who may not have a pressing deadline or any publication intentions (beyond maybe Facebook, Sportsshooter or his/her blog) arrives early and stakes out the prime spot. An hour later a shooter from a major publication or international wire services arrives late because he/she just flew into the airport or because they were sitting in the car transmitting images on deadline.
The shooter from the major news outlet walks up and politely ASKS the PJ student if they can maybe squeeze in, even though they know they are not entitled to. The PJ student recognizes the fact that the wire shooter really NEEDS to get this shot and very generously 'scooches' over a bit (even if it makes things a bit uncomfortable or hinders his/her primo position) because it's a mater of professional courtesy.
The PJ student or blog shooter in this scenario is simply being courteous and professional. Giving a bit of room or yielding some of your hard-earned spot in this case is NOT a sign of cowardice nor is he/she letting anyone push them around or walk all over them.
The PJ student or blogger is simply making a judgment call that, "Hey, this wire shooter really NEEDS the shot; he has a lot riding on it and if I have to give a bit of ground (even though I'm 100% entitled to it) then I'm going to try to help him out."
This is how we all play nice in the sandbox. We've all likely been at chaotic media scenes with tight shooting spaces where everyone played nice, worked together, yielded a bit of ground, kept their arms down and elbows tucked-in, voluntarily and quickly rotated prime spots and everyone got their shots and everyone walked away with images on their CF cards.
It's how professionals, at any level, work around and with each other every day. I find that more often than not, it's not the "big-time shooter" with a sense of entitlement that messes things up, but rather it's often the person who shows up with a chip on their shoulder and an unyielding attitude that messes up the whole thing.
Yes we all have examples of both "big-time" and "small-time" shooters messing things up and we can talk about them all day, but the bottom line is that we can be respectful of each other, recognize the unique needs of one another and work together like professionals... or we can all be jack-wagons and throw elbows and say helpful things like "Tough, you should'a been here earlier pal."
-Blanco |
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G.M. Andrews, Photographer
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Mobile | AL | USA | Posted: 4:06 PM on 07.14.11 |
->> "Really? ... I'm sorry you feel that some photojournalists should be extended more privilege than others."
Really? Some of the "Non-Photojournalistic" folks get absolutely apoplectic if Uncle Albert shows up with a point and shoot at a wedding their shooting and tries to get a picture of little Nancy-Jean walking down the aisle.
And how many threads have been started by Team and Individual shooters miffed that a GWC (that's a Guy With Camera for anyone not paying attention to the message board lately, or a Goober with Camera) or -gasp- another professional photographer shows up at a t-ball league doubleheader they've been contracted to shoot?
"Oh my goodness! He's taking the food right off my table!"
That's the same though that runs through a newspaper or a wire shooter's head after some blogger hoses his shot with an iPhone.
I'll stop now before I get further in touch with my inner Liddy... |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 7:55 PM on 07.14.11 |
->> Let's substitute "SLR" for iPhone. I don't really think it makes a difference.
Now, let's look at the situation Garcia describes: At the critical point, someone sticks a SLR in FRONT of the other photographer and blocks his visual access.
Amateur or professional, that's going to get a very direct response from me: I'm going to smack his hand out of my way and get the images I need to get. Once I get the images I need, I'm going to unleash a torrent of language toward the offending party.
Deb is right, good manners is important. But that doesn't mean that you can run over me. IF you don't show good manners, I may or may not.In a situation like that, I won't.
The only time this approach won't work is in the NFL with the TV crews/NFL film crews. Simple reason: It's the NFL's game, it's their rules and TV is the golden goose. They get special treatment. If you don't like it.. too bad.
That's one reason I enjoy shooting high school activities so much or summer baseball (The summer leagues described in "Field of Dreams" still exist.. shot a game last night) Usually don't have to fight with too many people. GWCs look at the Nikons and drool if they know what they are, otherwise they just move aside.
I have good manners. I expect the other person to also have them as well. But if you don't, you'll either get a lecture... or moved out of the way...
M |
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Andrew Villa, Photographer, Assistant
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campbell | CA | United States | Posted: 8:49 PM on 07.14.11 |
| ->> Jack Gruber gave an interesting talk on this exact subject a few years back at SSA IV I believe. Most of the time we are all working for a common objective. So instead of getting in the way of people, why not work together. I distinctly remember seeing an image on the projector screen of what looked to be a stack of PJ's shooting a play at an NFL game. One on the ground, one kneeling, and one standing. All working together to shoot a play. The same goes for any assignment. During the Hillary campaign a few years ago in San Jose, I shot an assignment, the media bench was covered with photographers and we all shot together without any qualms. |
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Baron Sekiya, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Hilo | HI | USA | Posted: 5:33 AM on 07.15.11 |
->> There was a newspaper reporter once here in Hawaii that was pushed aside and treated poorly by a TV camera operator. The reporter was so peeved that he stood near the camera's mic the whole time they were rolling tape softly repeating the 'F' word ruining all of their audio, it wasn't a situation where they could redo the video.
The funny part is the reporter later ended up working in TV as a reporter and later on became an anchorman. He treated newspaper photogs well when he was on assignment for TV, I think it was because he knew the crap we had to go through. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 10:55 PM on 07.15.11 |
->> The problem lies at the difference between "right" and "courtesy."
--Mark |
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