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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Trouble getting paid..
Mike Burley, Photographer
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Dubuque | IA | USA | Posted: 1:37 PM on 06.24.11 |
| ->> I did a freelance assignment for Bluff Magazine back in January, and am having a hard time getting anyone to return calls, emails, etc.. I got a return email from the editor in chief (Lance Bradley) that he loved the photos and they worked great. He's the guy who contacted me originally about the gig - Haven't heard back since early Feb. The company's contact info on their website gives phone numbers with voice mail only, and the main number is disconnected. Should I be worried? Anyone have a contact there? Suggestions? |
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Michael Chang, Photographer
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Robertsdale | AL | USA | Posted: 1:46 PM on 06.24.11 |
| ->> Have you sent an invoice certified? |
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Rafael Agustin Delgado, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Pasadena | Ca | USA | Posted: 1:50 PM on 06.24.11 |
->> You will be amazed how a letter head from a lawyer turns things around. That of course if the client even reads it. Can also opp for small claims route as well.
I would see if there are any complaints with the city the company resides within. Be sure to document your attempts to contact.
Proof of original agreement, evidence of your completion of the job and certified mailings will help the cause.
Good Luck. |
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Mike Burley, Photographer
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Dubuque | IA | USA | Posted: 2:46 PM on 06.24.11 |
->> I've got all the emails with the entire conversation saved. I just got in contact with their accounting department to which they responded, "we're a little behind"... 6 months is not a little in my mind.
I'm trying to be polite and not burn bridges, these things happen... Thought they shouldn't. |
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Mike Burley, Photographer
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Dubuque | IA | USA | Posted: 2:47 PM on 06.24.11 |
| ->> **though** |
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Jeff Gammons, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Niceville | Fl | USA | Posted: 5:50 PM on 06.24.11 |
->> We have all had this issue in some fashion or another... I just got done struggling to get payment from a client, but gladly it was only 4 months and not 6,and just for a portrait session. After a few calls and emails in the first month and sending a second invoice the next, I let it settle in and see if I would get a check in the mail as promised...nadda... One more call and a slight hint of small claims, had a check in 3 days. Luckly we are still friendly to each other in passing, no bridges burned.
Good luck in your ordeal,
Jeff |
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Jeff Gammons, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Niceville | Fl | USA | Posted: 5:57 PM on 06.24.11 |
| ->> I would have let it go longer, but I needed to pay for my plane tickets to make it to the SSA... |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 1:21 AM on 06.25.11 |
->> Maike, Are the images registered with the Copyright Office? That is really your only serious leverage with a client that might stiff you.
--Mark |
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David Scott, Photographer
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Vancouver | WA | US | Posted: 1:50 AM on 06.25.11 |
| ->> In addition to registering images we also include the statement on our invoices and initial quote: "Licensing rights granted upon payment in full." It helps speed things up when we remind them of that statement and that they've already published the image. |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 5:05 PM on 06.25.11 |
->> "I did a freelance assignment for Bluff Magazine back in January, and am having a hard time getting anyone to return calls, emails, etc."
"I'm trying to be polite and not burn bridges"
- What bridge? |
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Bryon Houlgrave, Photographer
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San Diego County | CA | USA | Posted: 6:35 PM on 06.25.11 |
| ->> I know a guy who knows a guy, if you know what I mean. |
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Angel Valentin, Photographer
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Palmer | PR | Puerto Rico | Posted: 10:10 AM on 06.26.11 |
| ->> I'm dislexic and thought the subject was "Trouble getting laid"... |
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Chet Gordon, Photographer
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Newburgh | NY | US | Posted: 3:50 PM on 06.26.11 |
->> Mike,
For future reference, this video is full good ideas when dealing with (unresponsive) clients: http://vimeo.com/22053820
Although it's intended for designers, just substitute "photographer" for "designer"...
I think a lot of us out here have wanted to tell more than one client, "F*ck You, Pay Me."
Just my 2% of a $.
~cg. |
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Tim Snow, Photographer
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Montreal | Qc | Canada | Posted: 12:09 AM on 06.27.11 |
->> Had that happen recently with an internationally published magazine who I shot a high profile sporting event in December. I contacted the photo editor several times and got nowhere, I finally left a voicemail with the editor in chief...
The check was in my mailbox 2 days later. I do not care if I burned a bridge as I pretty much decided I wasn't going to work for them again anyways... |
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Mike Burley, Photographer
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Dubuque | IA | USA | Posted: 3:44 AM on 06.27.11 |
->> Tim, good point. I dont want to be a prick, I know people get busy... Sometimes its just lazy accounting departments.. At the same time, I should be adding the hours I spent tracking down my check.
Question: "Do I really want to do another assignment for them ever again?".
Answer - No... oh, and "[profanity] you, pay me." |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 7:38 AM on 06.28.11 |
->> Mark Loundy
That is not the only recourse. If he had a contract then this is just as valid. Copyright helps you, but when a contract exists then it is easier to pursue this.
Contract can be as simple as proving a price was quoted and they agreed to the price before work was done.
When you have no contract--someone gets your photos and uses them without permission and there was no contract then the registered copyright helps you pursue them on copyright infringement.
Courts are basically trying to be sure that an agreement is upheld in cases like this where work was performed for a quoted price. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 1:47 PM on 06.28.11 |
->> Stanley, Yep, but for that you actually have to go to court. Often, the mere threat of federal action on a copyright infringement is enough to get clients to pay. Not always, but it's a much bigger stick.
--Mark |
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Bryon Houlgrave, Photographer
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
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Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 6:16 AM on 07.13.11 |
->> Mike -
Short term, continue your efforts to get paid. Certified letter, etc are good ideas.
You didn't say how much was owed to you but you should give some consideration as to the cost of your time to collect the bill. In other words, don't spend $200 of your time to collect a $100 bill. Because they don't return your phone calls or respond to messages, there's no relationship to loose so do what whatever you need to do.
Long term, chalk it up to training expense. We all have situations that don't work out exactly as they should so we need to learn something from each of them and make changes so that won't happen again.
Just my 2 cents. |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 7:06 AM on 07.13.11 |
->> Mark:
copyright cases take so much longer to pursue. If you have a contract it is the best thing to pursue.
Copyright law is to protect you from people who you do not have a contract with and those you have a contract with.
Every lawyer I have talked to would prefer to pursue a case where there is a contract this way than through the copyright process. All I have worked with said the time for a copyright case is a year or more.
Most likely this type of case with a contract can go to a small claims court. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 8:12 AM on 07.13.11 |
->> Mike:
They owe YOU money - it's OK to be a prick. (Trust me, it won't be the first time they've experienced it) If you've tried being nice... then being a prick is the next step...
Lazy accounting department? I don't think so. Never met one. Maybe a bad accounting department... but it's really they're trying to stiff you...pure and simple.
Understand that with all of my calm, reasoned business experience, I take a VERY dim view of getting stiffed. Scorched earth warfare is part of my approach. This may be why my wife handles it. I have sued someone and used a lawyer that cost me $500 to collect $500. Bad business? Yeah but I get to a point where you have to make a stand. If people know that you won't take getting shafted, it decreases the chances of getting shafted.
Be firm, be strict. Get what's owed to you. |
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Mike Burley, Photographer
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Dubuque | IA | USA | Posted: 10:16 AM on 07.13.11 |
->> Its not a huge paycheck, just $300. Rather than getting a lawyer, Im going to keep hassling the accounting department. I've gotten through to them a few times and they say they're "working on it". I'll give it another couple of weeks of daily phone calls and being as annoying as possible. If that doesn't work, then I'll pursue other legal action.
At this point, Its been almost a month since I started this tread. I know could care less if I'm a prick.. My patience is clearly being tested.
Anyone who does work for Bluff Media beware. |
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
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Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 10:32 AM on 07.13.11 |
->> Mike:
1. Ask them to clarify what "working on it means."
2. Always ask what the next step is and the date it will happen. Make a note of it.
3. Ask for the same person every time you call them. Hold their feet in the fire and make them accountable to everything they have told you. Let them know that you arn't going away and will be calling back on (date).
Good luck. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 1:19 PM on 07.13.11 |
| ->> Just factor in an hourly charge for you having to contact their accounting. Bill in half-hour increments, and add 1.5% per month. It should go without saying, but apparently it doesn't - that's how the rest of the non-photography world does business. Quit playing like they're your drinking buddy. |
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Mike Burley, Photographer
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Dubuque | IA | USA | Posted: 2:24 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> "Just factor in an hourly charge for you having to contact their accounting. Bill in half-hour increments, and add 1.5% per month. It should go without saying, but apparently it doesn't - that's how the rest of the non-photography world does business. Quit playing like they're your drinking buddy."
Add interest / late fees? Anyone else have luck in collecting after adding fees? Seems like it'd be less likely to get my original invoice paid. Any thoughts? |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 3:09 PM on 07.13.11 |
->> That's the language the accounting world speaks.
If it costs me X to pay someone right now, or X to pay them later (and I know they won't take me to court)... Then I'm going to pay them later.
If it costs me X to pay them now, and X + whatever + interest to pay them later, I'm going to pay them now because it lowers the bottom line.
Usually you build interest + late fees into your contract. If you're not, that's where the blame lies. Regardless, if they're taking your time, bill them for it. If they're costing you whatever you'd invest that money in, bill them for it. Right now they're burning your time and finances because you aren't billing them for it.
Yeah, they're going to balk at it, and maybe they'll have a pissing match over wasting a photographer's time, but that's how it goes when you don't pay people what you owe them.
There are a lot of business/photographer types who can communicate this much better than I - check out John Harrington for example. And there's always Harlan Ellison's poetic diatribe on the topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE |
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Mike Burley, Photographer
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Dubuque | IA | USA | Posted: 11:24 AM on 07.20.11 |
->> Check in hand and cleared yesterday...
I called advertising, circulation, bean counters, and the Editor in Chief.. I left voicemails 2-3 times a day, everyday, for 3 weeks (in addition to random emails/calls for the last 4 months). Sent several polite emails to the EIC. I never had a single call or email returned after the assignment was shot. Ever. I got the EIC on the phone once to which he replied, "I'll get it out today" - and that was 4 months ago.
So 6 months after the gig was shot, I finally have a check. Funny how the editor in chief Lance Bradley had fantastic communication throughout the assignment, then dropped off the face of the earth when it's time to get paid. The final email I sent mentioned something about "the next letter you receive from me will be on my attorney's letterhead", which finally got the ball rolling. Either that or I was just annoying enough..
Beware of Bluff Media.. I think they play the percentages just to see how many freelancers give up. I've heard a few other stories from freelancers who've worked for these guys. |
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Doug Pizac, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | USA | Posted: 11:47 AM on 07.20.11 |
->> Here are two methods that may work for those in need of a payment solution in the future.
In either North or South Carolina earlier this year a couple found themselves in foreclosure Hell with a bank who wrongfully filed against them. The couple sued and won. But collecting the awarded damages was another matter. So they filed a lien against the bank and had the court authorize seizure. The couple and a police officer showed up one morning and shut down the bank seizing all the cash on hand, the computers, etc. It took the bank about an hour to get higher ups to authorize the local branch manager to cut a cashier's check to the couple to get their bank back.
And recently I talked with a copyright attorney who when I told him about the above story he said there is the Digital Millenium Act. With failure to pay constituting copyright infringement, the photographer can have the publisher's entire website shut down -- provided the infringed image is on it. That was the jest of our conversation; we didn't discuss it in detail or how it is done or costs to do so.
But both are options to keep in mind with unruly bad debt companies. |
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