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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Question for the Wedding Photogs Out There
Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 3:05 PM on 03.02.11 |
->> Thanks in advance for any advice.
I'm shooting a wedding in October and I met with the couple over this last weekend to shoot engagement photos at this winery that the wedding is at so I got to see it and check out the location.
After I posted a few photos on Facebook (I'm friends with the couple on there), the even coordinator woman at the winery emailed me through the bride asking if I could send her some of the images for their ads and website and that I would get "full credit/link to my site" for them.
Although I'm not interested in just giving them free photos for their ads for weddings shot at their winery, I'm curious on what the protocol is for wedding photos at locations like this.
On one hand, they're getting images for free, but on the other hand, she'll be handing my contact info and some of my wedding photo samples to any bride that checks out their location.
Thoughts?
Maybe I should just ask her for a few bottles of wine... |
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Thomas Campbell, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 3:26 PM on 03.02.11 |
| ->> Generally, if you are interested in shooting weddings regularly, you send them the low-res file with a small watermark on the side and work your way onto the preferred vendor list of the venue. Make some 5x7 cards with your work (pref of that venue), something about you, price range and contact info. If they want the high-res, use that to get on their list. Offer to print/frame pictures and even print an album for them of your wedding there. If they love your work, use it to get in there. |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 3:53 PM on 03.02.11 |
| ->> Many successful wedding photographers I know have partnered with hotels, caterers, wedding planners, venues (like wineries) - to have their portfolio books featured as referrals. The hotel gets a few nice images to put on the wall, the photographer gets good leads that net them much more $$ and a familiar venue and staff that make their jobs easier. |
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Jon Wright, Photographer
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Wayzata | MN | USA | Posted: 4:22 PM on 03.02.11 |
->> It sounds like a great way to get your name out to a targeted potential client base. Just be sure you have all your images branded so you don't lose the promotional value. I made a brush in Photoshop that has my company name and web address. Then, all I have to do is add a transparent layer and apply the brush. That way you can put it where you want to and resize it.
Jon |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 8:20 PM on 03.02.11 |
| ->> If you take care of other vendors, they'll take care of you. I usually prefer to give them albums of their venue or something of that sort just to make sure the quality stays high. |
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
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Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 8:46 PM on 03.02.11 |
| ->> What Israel said times 2. Maybe even 3 or 4. I would burn the images on a dvd and make an appointment to drop the images off. Create some face time in front of the coordinator!! |
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 8:54 PM on 03.02.11 |
| ->> Sharing images with vendors is ok, if you think it will benefit you. My philosophy is I still have costs and something with monetary value, I might do trade, say a free hotel stay for a hotel that wants a photo, or flowers for my wife from a florist, etc. Prints cost money, albums cost money. I might do a cost plus 10% then on those types of items if I'm not interested in what they have to offer. Why should we be expected to give something away for free? If they want to give me free stuff too, then its a trade, thus I'm getting paid. Nobody cares about your logo on a print in the venue, or pays any attention to the million books on the table. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 1:12 AM on 03.03.11 |
->> Nic wrote: "...the even coordinator woman at the winery emailed me through the bride asking if I could send her some of the images for their ads and website and that I would get "full credit/link to my site" for them."
Being the pragmatist that I am; how is this any different than giving a magazine, newspaper, an ad agency, corporation, sports team...you know the list ... photos/game coverage for a credit line? ... you know the drill.
Craig wrote: "Why should we be expected to give something away for free?"
We are expected to give away our work for free because hundreds, maybe thousands of other have done it in the past and because so many photographers are desperately trying to get 'their foot in the door' they are willing to acquiesce to such request.
In this case, to let the requester know how silly their request is, I would call the event planner at the winery and tell them that I will be shooting a wedding there in October. I will be talking to other brides now and in the future and would like to recommend their location as wedding/reception site. All I need is a few cases of wine each month to .... 'I would give "full credit (brochure and business cards/link to your site".
We know the response, correct? It starts with: "I'm sorry Mr. Brooks we can't ...."
Yet, when Nic (hopefully) ask for compensation in some manner monetary or in trade, he will be made out to be a villain.
If the event coordinator and the company she works for like the images, they will be willing to license them, negotiate a trade or a combination thereof. If they really value the image quality and intrinsic value it would bring, enhancing their service/brand they won't even blink at whatever fee Nic quotes. If their compensation is limited to a credit line, then it would be obvious that they don't value Nic's work more than any other wedding photographer. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 1:37 AM on 03.03.11 |
->> Clark and Craig-
How many wedding referrals do you get from vendors by using that strategy? |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 1:38 AM on 03.03.11 |
| ->> (I'm not being facetious; I'm just wondering if it works out in terms of getting more weddings) |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 1:52 AM on 03.03.11 |
->> Thanks everyone for the advice.
I'm not going to give anything to anyone for free, but just wondering if this was a common practice from wedding location people.
@Clark. I asked her for a few bottles of wine and she didn't even acknowledge my statement in that...
She does like my work (as she found my website thanks to the bride) and said some very nice stuff indeed about it.
So I'll send her a proof sheet and see what she says. |
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 2:55 AM on 03.03.11 |
| ->> Isreal, plenty. Turns out people have more respect from you when you actually value your work. And for the record, much more than from people who get freebies. Referrals are best gained by building relationships, face to face in person relationships, not from free product. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 5:36 AM on 03.03.11 |
| ->> Craig - I'm not sure why you're expecting that I'm not building relationships face to face. That's obviously the primary method. Giving someone an album they can show to a bride is just a good way to extend it to another level :) |
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Jon Wright, Photographer
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Wayzata | MN | USA | Posted: 8:40 AM on 03.03.11 |
| ->> Networking is just a normal part of doing business for us. It is not free. Since our work is "visual" in nature samples are an important aspect of our campaign. We use wallet size prints, brochures and mounted enlargements to get the word out about our wedding and portrait services. |
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Bradley Leeb, Photographer
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Champaign | IL | USA | Posted: 10:00 AM on 03.03.11 |
->> As everyone has been playing nice in this thread and having a well-mannered discussion with many viewpoints being exchanged, I'd like to throw a thought out there to see how it plays out.
Let's make a comparison to "free sample hour" at the local supermarket. I'm sure everyone has been to the store and passed by the tables where they have someone pushing free samples. Heck, at Trader Joe's there is even a permanent station set up for this.
I've got some opinions about this on both sides of the coin, but I'd like to read some discussion on whether this is an analogous situation where, if you give someone something for free, hopefully they will like it enough to buy more. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 10:44 AM on 03.03.11 |
->> Nic what do you spend on advertising per month or year? Sometimes people get SO hung up on the concept of 'free' that they just don't see the advantages of something.
Consider this as part of your advertising budget. Plain and simple as long as you get decent logo/studio name placement you'd be silly to not look deeper into the possibility. When I was shooting weddings not only did I put (or try to put) samples in the hands of the wedding venues but I would also put together small (companion album sized) albums of grooms and groomsmen wearing tuxes from the particular rental houses and drop those off. Worked well as I always picked up a few wedding referrals from the rental houses, and in some cases would get free rentals myself (in the old days wedding photographers showed up in tuxes instead of shorts and flip flops). |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 12:29 PM on 03.03.11 |
->> @Eric,
Thanks, That is what I'm starting to realize. It has to help me more than hurt me.
@everyone,
Thanks for the advice. When it comes to some of this business stuff, I feel like this sometimes:
http://i.imgur.com/3ESyY.jpg |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 12:48 PM on 03.03.11 |
->> Nic I don't know how versed you are in wedding work. In the 'old' days album companies would provide you 'sample' albums that were branded on the back cover with the word "SAMPLE" and (if you had one) hot foil stamped with your die.... Because the album had no resale value they would sell you the album at cost or discount it (off of the wholesale price) VERY deeply. It was a great way for them to put samples in the hands of brides and not have to fear that some studio was scamming them.
You may want to see if this is still being done as it will let you put sample albums in a venue at a fraction of the cost. As for framing, you may be able to do a deal with a framing vendor where you both have your logos, cards, or names included in the framed print.
The second word we learn as humans is NO! takes a lifetime to unlearn it..... (mamma is first) |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 9:33 AM on 03.05.11 |
->> You are not giving the image for free....the compensation you are receiving is the added referral business you gain compared to what you'd have gotten had you not provided the images. This works very well if you also establish the rapport with the venue coordinator. There are all sorts of ways to get paid...cash is great, but I'd take a wedding booking over whatever you think you might get from the sample image. Some people think if you dont receive a check then its for free. Thats simply not reality. Especially in the wedding game. I've got 3 weddings today (my company), and we've done well over 700 of them.
Ask yourself how many extra bookings = fair compensation for a few images.......the answer is pretty clear pretty quickly. Especially if your avg sale is 4k or so as it is for us. Most of the people who'd say no to this probably are not players in the wedding industry anyway. WOM/Referrals is the most cost effective form of advertisng there is. A few images to help the venue promote itself (along with you) is a great way to improve your WOM. |
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Joshua Brown, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 10:19 AM on 03.05.11 |
->> This is a site I use that was specifically created for sharing wedding images with other vendors. They also help get your work published on blogs.
http://twobrightlights.com/ |
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Brad Barr, Photographer
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Port St. Lucie | FL | USA | Posted: 10:31 AM on 03.05.11 |
| ->> deliver the images in person...take the banquet coordinator to lunch...its the interpersonal relationships that make this business work. The images are just a good reason to get together...and it puts you in a positive light. |
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Richard Uhlhorn, Photographer
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Chelan Falls | WA | USA | Posted: 12:02 PM on 03.05.11 |
->> While I always fight the free concept, this is a case where giving the Winery a few engagement/wedding photos can create more business. I agree that you should hand deliver a CD, sit down and talk with the winery and find out what their future needs are.
It is simply advertising and if you give up a few images, it might very well pay off in more work and more referrals. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 12:14 PM on 03.05.11 |
->> Israel wrote: "How many wedding referrals do you get from vendors by using that strategy?"
Jeepers Israel, I'm sorry if I offended you with my post, bud.
To answer your question, and keep in mind I'm not in the wedding mill business, the answer is a big fat ZERO. Now ask me how many referrals have I have received from vendors in the past 10 years. Another big FAT ZERO. Ask how many referrals do I expect in the next ten year. Another BIG FAT ZERO. There is a reason for the triple zeros and that is because of the market dynamics.
It appears the dynamics here does not reflect those in other parts of the country. Here in my neck of the woods, brides get engage, book a photographer and then worry about venues and finally flowers, catering, yadda, yadda... Wedding photographers here are not an after thought.
The 'playaz' in my area, photographers who specialize in wedding work, are usually booked from May through September in the coming year by first week of January (in a slow year). 70% of the few weddings I do every year are booked a year and half to two years in advance, long before the bride even settles on her color scheme for her special day or signed a contract for the venue. I would venture to guess that the same is true of the fulltime wedding service photographers in this area who book as far out as I do.
So, it make no logical sense to give away product or devote time to networking with vendors for referrals that will never materalize. At the few wedding shows I've attended here, cake makers, limo owners and venue managers and other wedding vendors make the rounds to the photographers' booths, especially to the shooters who have been around a half decade or longer, to hand out cards and chat them up. It is not the other way around. Hence, based on the current marketplace I operate within, one reason for the way I responded to the question.
If I worked in a different part of the country where the market dynamics were such that photographers were at the bottom of the planning list and wanted to be in the wedding business, then yes, as Mr. Barr pointed out above, handing out to vendors photos, books, images for their websites, all in the hope of gaining referrals can be written off/justified as advertising and promotional expense could make sense to a certain reasonable point so long as the photographer has a system in place to track the referrals from the vendors they are 'working with'. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 9:58 PM on 03.05.11 |
| ->> Sorry about that Clark! I wasn't offended and realized it came out that way right after... I was just wondering if that strategy works well for you guys in terms of marketing - none of the higher-end shooters in my area do it :) |
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