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Random question about fans' rights.
Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 12:13 AM on 02.17.11 |
->> So I'm at a minor league hockey game tonight and a woman seven rows down gets clocked on the forehead by an errant puck. The boyfriend/companion is drunk and freaking out more than she is, so I hop up and run on down to hold her head (because she went all rubber neck as soon as it hit).
As her blood is running up to my elbows, arena employees descended on the scene with lighting speed, but didn't touch her at all. Instead they pulled out a clipboard, asked the boyfriend to see their tickets and their first order of business is to determine amongst themselves "It's okay, she can't sue, she's in the wrong seats".
So a few questions pop in to my head;
1: Doesn't it explicitly state on just about every sporting event ticket's back side that basically the team, stadium et al are not held responsible for injury caused by objects exiting the playing field/surface?
2: I'm pretty sure it does, but is there some sort of language that protects you if you are in that little 18 x 18 inch seat ONLY?
3: Who the hell trains these people on how to handle incidents like this? It was like in cartoons where an accident happens and the first people on the scene are two lawyers with a blank check with the medics miles behind. |
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Matthew Ginn, Photographer
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 2:00 AM on 02.17.11 |
->> Can't say about 1 and 2, but to answer no. 3, it was probably the same people who trained staff at a Portland hospital to tell police they had to call 911 for an ambulance after police had found an non-responsive person in a wrecked car in the hospital parking lot.
http://bit.ly/gija9u |
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Mike Janes, Photographer
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Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 3:03 AM on 02.17.11 |
->> 1) Minor league teams often leave this out in baseball, they make an announcement but don't seem to have it in print anywhere. Seen it often at the minor league games when there's nothing on the tickets or announced.
2) Assume all risk - usually the term I hear if it's said, so you're responsible for everything.
3) When I was trained in CPR/AED (about 10x) we were told to administer help first if we were trained, if not then don't touch them. If trained you can't get sued for trying to help - the good samaritan law or something - but if not trained you could be screwed. Not positive if it's a state thing or what though. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 3:10 AM on 02.17.11 |
->> I'm not sure if all states have Good Samaritan laws. California does.
--Mark |
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Frank Lauri, Photographer
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Larksville | PA | USA | Posted: 7:51 AM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> Tom....I don't know about the legalities but thumbs up to you for going down to help her. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 7:57 AM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> That would be an interesting - and odd - business move if lower level farm teams left that language out. It seems like a no brainer to CYA since they aren't hyper lucrative in the first place. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 8:28 AM on 02.17.11 |
->> Someone needs to inform them that whether or not there were releases/warnings/announcements, etc. - they are still going to sue. May not win, but they can still sue. The fact that they apparently failed to take any action (call the trainer, call 911, etc.) may actually make this more likely. I don't see that they would gain a lot of sympathy before the jury with the "she's in the wrong seat" defense - especially when the suit brought is for negligence in failing to provide assistance, not for the original injury. (Not an attorney disclaimer here).
Kudos to you Thomas for rendering aid. (You may want to consider a followup blood test in a bit just as a precaution given your direct contact with her blood). |
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Melissa Wade, Photographer
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Boston | MA | USA | Posted: 1:54 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> If it was security/ushers that reached you first, they may not be permitted to do anything in that situation since they wouldn't have any training. I'm guessing on their way to the seat, they called for the EMS folks.
I actually was chatting with a regular security person at a game on Tuesday - her son had been at a previous game and developed a severe nose bleed - all they are allowed to do is hand over tissues/towels if they have them, but aren't allowed to apply them. They also have to call the HazMat-trained folks for that game to clean up any blood in the area rather than a regular cleaner just using a mop.
From your description of their actions, it does seem insensitive, but the ticket info might be required for whatever forms they have to fill out (and better to get it then than to slow down her departure from the rink if EMS determined she needed to go to the hospital) and the sue chatter, could have just been their BS belief. |
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John Korduner, Photographer
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Baton Rouge | LA | United States | Posted: 2:18 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> You can only assume risks that the law allows. You can can get waivers for a friendly Russian roulette showdown, but you can't enforce it ...in the alternative, just because a parking receipt says you accept responsibity for any loss that occurs while you are gone doesn't mean it's true. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 2:39 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> at a hockey event such as this, wouldn't there be an EMS crew on the scene that is trained to handle these types of situations? The team may have in mind the legalities of the situation, but the perception should be they are concerned about the safety and well-being of their patrons. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 4:06 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Thomas,
In response to your original questions. (I'm not a lawyer so this is not legally correct but think my points are valid)
Yes most tickets and announcements remind fans that they can be injured and that gives the arena some liability protection, but not fully.
Anyone can sue for anything no matter what the "agreement" is. While fans know they may be injured the arena is responsible for providing a "reasonably safe" environment. If it is found the glass at that arena is 1 inch lower than the league requirements then the person has argument to sue that the arena did not do what they can to protect them.
Look at the NHL incident from a few years ago where a young girl was struck by a puck and suffered fatal injuries. Though all the regulations had been followed the family successfully made the argument that the protections in place were not sufficient to keep fans reasonably safe and now we have nets behind the goals where the puck is usually flying the fastest when leaving the arena after an errant or deflected shot on goal.
As for the reaction of the ushers. They can't determine whether someone can sue or be treated because of their seat number. A lawyer could argue that even though they were not in their assigned seats, SOMEONE could have been in those seats and therefore should expect reasonable protection. They were available for use by a paying customer and were not safe, so then should have not been open for seating by anyone -- proper ticket holder or no. Plus the injured fan was allowed to sit in the seats by the ushers, if it was not their seat then shouldn't the arena have moved them to their proper and safer seats?
Though ushers may be ordered to not provide medical treatment (not a surprise since poor treatment by an official arena staffer opens up much more liability) the fan should expect proper medical response in a timely manner by properly trained arena personnel. I know at the Verizon Center when a puck goes in the stands an usher descends to their seat quickly, usually followed closely by a supervisor with a radio. If medical treatment is needed, paramedics who are in house are called and respond quickly with proper gear.
It would be the same if you fell in a large department store and were injured. You should expect the employees to maybe not treat you, but to call a manager and summon 911 medical response immediately. If employees ignore you or tell you to call 911 yourself you could probably retire on the lawsuit settlement.
Same as if someone is in your home. You have insurance to pay for accidents and can't be held responsible if someone does something stupid. But you are responsible for certain safeties. If you know floor boards are rotten but ignore it, don't tell your guests and one falls through your floor into the basement you are liable for all medical damages.
So long-winded answer shortened: no matter what the ticket contract disclaimers, the arena is responsible for responding properly in any instance whether it is negligence or accident.
(having several friends and family members who are lawyers and seeing a couple of them through the rigors of law school, I love making these arguments especially since I often found their arguments over liability ridiculous and would say "yeah, but the guy was an idiot, how can he sue?") |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 10:59 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Basically whatever it says...
"Doesn't it explicitly state on just about every sporting event ticket's back side..."
Is totally irrelevant in the real world especially when you get inside a courtroom. It could say that you will buy your wife a new car within 24 hours too. It's not an agreement, it's a scare tactic.
Same thing with those tickets you get when you pull into a parking garage or lot; you know... "We are not responsible for your car, anything in it, your kids or anything else. Totally irrelevant in court. |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 11:35 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Let's get it straight. This is not a "random" question about fans' rights.
It is a very specific question about the "rights" of hockey game attendees that may or may not have been "fans". Did you ask them? Where they really "fans" or merely, perhaps, a couple in need of an evening's entertainment that just happened to choose that night's hockey game instead of a movie at the cineplex. WE NEED SPECIFICS!
You write about an "errant" puck. Really? Could it have been a puck aimed directly at that woman? Could it have been payback for some un-righted wrong? Could it have been A CONTRACTED HIT?
And were those people you talk about really "arena employees"? Perhaps they were employed by some kind of sub-contractor, a company whose connection to the "arena" that you so boldly state was tangential, if that.
As the questions pop into your head they also pop into ours.
You have a LOT of explaining to do. |
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Todd Spoth, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 11:58 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> "SHE WENT ALL RUBBER NECK" is pretty much the best line I have read of SS lately.
I suppose if I took the time to read past the first line I would be complaining about something Jim Colburn said, but I didn't.
All apologies. |
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Duane Burleson, Photographer
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Sterling Heights | MI | USA | Posted: 5:06 PM on 02.18.11 |
->> Thomas,
You can't make a contract to avoid negligence.
If negligence can be proven after an incident a lawsuit can easily be won, no matter what is written on the back of a ticket.
If the fan can win the argument that the area they were sitting should have had protection, or better protection, that would make the team negligent and a lawsuit could be won.
Cheers,
Duane |
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