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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
hasta...
Joe Cavaretta, Photographer
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Ft Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 9:31 PM on 02.15.11 |
->> I've decided I'm not renewing because this used to be an uplifting and positive spot to spend time poking around.
It has turned into a cannibalistic fiesta, maybe that's just the nature of the business nowadays, but when I go out on assignments and see colleagues, they do not talk to each other the way people talk to each other here.
This used to be a place where we stuck up for a photographer's rights, but now, more often than not, the attacks are coming from each other, not the police or PR people.
Seems like it is a sin to solicit or offer advice.
There are lots of folks whom I respect a lot that I used to see on here and more often and it seems they just don't bother any more.
I'll keep looking in every now and again, and maybe if things lighten up I might just ask Liddy to sponsor me. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 9:34 PM on 02.15.11 |
->> Joe,
I tossed that around, too, when my renewal came up earlier this month. I decided to go ahead and stick it out for another year since Bert has started doing the monthly newsletter again.
I agree that a lot of good guys have become so disenchanted with it that they don't want to enter the usual fray that erupts.
Also, since Liddy announced his renewal I figured someone had to hang around and try to keep him in check. Okay, I can't stop him but can only hope to contain. |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Northwest Missouri | MO | USA | Posted: 10:53 PM on 02.15.11 |
->> I'm with you Joe. However, SportsShooter is a good way to vet freelance photographers. I also like being able to pick up an occassional deal on used gear. I have to tune out a few folks and that's too bad. Biggest complaint is that getting truly valuable information is terribly hard to come by.
It feels like there's more speculation and folklore than usable stuff sometimes. Despite that, Pimp My Rig is my favorite new column. There's a huge need for a lot of instruction on video journalism, how to price it, how to deliver it and where to get the best information as many of us have had to begin retraining ourselves. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:29 PM on 02.15.11 |
| ->> I agree with you guys. If that Liddy asshole renews next year I'm outta here....oh.....wait......... |
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Drew Hierwarter, Photographer
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Kingsport | TN | USA | Posted: 8:19 AM on 02.16.11 |
->> I agree that sometimes there's a little bit too much of a good 'ol boy club on here, and interlopers are not welcomed. But the real value of Sportshooter is more than just this forum.
I recently posted a question on the "Technical Q&A" page and within minutes I started getting answers.
Ultimately the suggestions put up there saved me from spending more than $300 in repairs.
You guys can't get rid of me that easy, I'm sticking around. |
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Eric Seals, Photographer
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Detroit | MI | United States | Posted: 8:58 AM on 02.16.11 |
| ->> Well said Joe! |
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Nick Morris, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 4:36 PM on 02.16.11 |
| ->> Liddy as a sponsor? That's like asking Charlie Sheen to be your AA sponsor! Joe, I know it's only $25 but as we continue to give way to the "elements" that wreck havoc on decent sites like this they'll just continue to deteriorate and soon enough we'll no longer have a place we can call our own. Why not renew your membership and maybe we can all begin to reorganize the site and implement more stringent standards as far as personal conduct? I hate to see veterans leave because of some idiot flexing his/her internet bravado. It's not just this site it's happening all over the web on equally decent sites. Grant it there are times when someone deserves a lashing and to be put back on track but lately your right... when a newbie gets hammered for asking the $1,000 question on how to get started a simple link and a stern "Do a search" should more than suffice. Seriously if it bothers you so much as to actually spend more time to type out a nasty response than it did to read the question whose really the dork? ***I now return you to your regular programming*** |
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Jason Burfield, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 5:07 PM on 02.16.11 |
->> Nick, well said.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
It's easy to stand on the sidelines and make comments. Better to get involved and try to change that which you don't like.
Have suggestions for those of us that run the site? Send an email. We are all quite busy, however, we do listen to the input and do our best to implement good ideas when we can.
-- Jason |
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
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Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 7:59 PM on 02.16.11 |
->> I hear where you're coming from, Joe. I have to think about it a little longer each year. It pretty much comes down to tradition more than anything, and the Gridiron Challenge and fantasy baseball. And a lot of the pros that used to be really helpful here don't participate much.
There's still some useful info here, and some fun, but not much in the way of real help or useful advice that doesn't devolve into the usual pissing matches.
Why is nothing ever as good as it used to be back in the olden days? |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 8:11 PM on 02.16.11 |
->> I've been involved with online discussion areas for more than 25 years. The quality of discourse here is more consistent and of higher quality than most of them.
Some groups go through a common life cycle pattern and end-up flaming out. Others make it through that stage and become stable -- like SportsShooter.
I think that some individual members also go through a process that causes them to lose their tolerance for the normal signal-to-noise level.
--Mark |
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Jeff Loy, Photographer
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Hurst | TX | USA | Posted: 8:46 PM on 02.16.11 |
->> I don't know Joe, but I hate to see him leave. He's one of several people on here I consider to be consistently informative and insightful in their posts.
While the tone on the boards might get a bit contentious at times, it's still a lot better than other forums I frequent. And it's a shame that things have gone in that direction.
As for renewing, I probably have the least reason to be here. I've been out of the newspaper industry for over ten years now, (unfortunately) don't shoot sports that often, update my member page far less than I should and lurk much, much more than I post.
But I've never hesitated when renewal time comes up. Bert, Jason, Grover and everyone else involved with SportsShooter have built an incredible community that has a ton of useful information and presents great networking opportunities. The main reason I'm here is that I make it a point to support those who support photographers and photography, and they're at the top of my list.
*Stepping off soapbox* |
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Jamey Price, Photographer, Assistant
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 8:54 PM on 02.16.11 |
->> "The main reason I'm here is that I make it a point to support those who support photographers and photography."
That makes the most sense out of anything that has been said on this message board in months. |
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Will Vragovic, Photographer
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Brooksville | FL | United States | Posted: 9:46 PM on 02.16.11 |
->> "But I've never hesitated when renewal time comes up. Bert, Jason, Grover and everyone else involved with SportsShooter have built an incredible community that has a ton of useful information and presents great networking opportunities. The main reason I'm here is that I make it a point to support those who support photographers and photography, and they're at the top of my list." - Jeff Loy
Amen, bro. |
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David G. McIntyre, Photographer
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Beijing | . | CHINA | Posted: 3:04 AM on 02.17.11 |
->> I think the message board has gotten much better with the post tabs at the bottom of each message. I like to overall purpose of SS, and am amazed at how it has grown from a simple monthly newsletter that was part of Brad's personal website.
I would only make a few suggestions for changes in the overall site, but agree with Mark that the message boards on some other sites are worse in content and user comments.
I would renew, and as Jason said:"It's easy to stand on the sidelines and make comments. Better to get involved and try to change that which you don't like." |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 4:17 AM on 02.17.11 |
->> I renew, because despite some of the bickering, I get a lot out of this site for my $25.
Like Jamey, I'm relatively young (everyone's young compared to Liddy...), but I get so much valuable information out of SS.com and speak very highly of it to other photogs and friends. |
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Angel Valentin, Photographer
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Palmer | PR | Puerto Rico | Posted: 6:16 AM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> No te vayas Guey. And why do you hate folks from PR ? |
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Jason Joseph, Photographer
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Dublin | OH | USA | Posted: 9:05 AM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> I agree with the fact that I get a TON out of SS. Yes, the message board can be ridiculous sometimes, but I don't think it is that hard to overlook the posts that are out of hand. The updates, the newsletters, the guide, the classifieds, the message board, the sponsors and the contests are what SS is all about. If anyone doesn't renew just because of some crappy message board posts is missing the big picture of what SS is all about. |
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Central Jersey | NJ | USA | Posted: 9:10 AM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> Angel: PR= Public Relations, not Puerto Rico ;) |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 12:18 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> Here's to hoping you change your mind. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 12:23 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Thanks Joe.
I am glad you appreciated all of the years of hard work and time we put into Sports Shooter. I can see your point. But I can also see where all you have to do is ignore the message board topics you are not interested in reading.
(It's like bad television shows ... I just don't tune into them.)
I wish you well. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 12:23 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> 'nuff said. |
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Jon Longo, Photographer
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Independence | KY | USA | Posted: 12:47 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> I hear what you are saying Joe. But for me.. Sports Shooter continues to be the best $25.00 I have ever spent on photography. The classifieds ( I trust making purchases from and selling to other members more than eBay), the newsletter, the forums...etc. Not to mention a few jobs here and there from someone seeing my profile. |
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Central Jersey | NJ | USA | Posted: 1:00 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> I go through this debate about this time each year, too...
But here's what always gets me to fork over the $25.
- Search Engine Results. "Jack Howard" searched in Google almost always yields my page here in the top spot (right now, some candidate for a district judge in Nevada is winning...grr...but it's still on the first page, 2nd item on Google. So, please do me and my ego a huge, huge favor if you are reading this, search "Jack Howard" and click on the link for my page ;) )
- Equipment Q+A. This has rescued me on so many occasions.
- The ability to post here, while not something I do very frequently any more, can be fullfilling, entertaining, therapeutic, cathartic, or some combination of subset of these feelings all mixed up at once, as some of the "full-house instant feedback results" I've generated from commentary proves.
- Fear. Outright fear. I'm in now. What if I don't re-up, then have to re-apply. Would the gods of the Sportsshooter acceptance process approve my work again? Knowing me these days, it'd be a bunch of HDRI landscapes, my dog and/or daughter looking cute and fun that I'd submit! And who would sponsor me? Brad Penner? Come on now! |
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Robert Caplin, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 1:49 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> Sports Shooter has been a wonderful resource for me as I grew into the photographer I am today. Though I clearly don't use it as much as I used to in the past for the same reasons Joe is not renewing, this website costs a mere $2/month and it has paid for itself over and over again whether it be through networking, image-buyers finding my information through the site, or just to laugh my ass off at a train-wreck message board thread. I've also had the pleasure of meeting many new friends because of my association. For those reasons I'll continue to keep my membership active to support my friends and colleagues who've dedicated much of their lives to create resources like this for the photo industry. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:00 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> All kidding aside. If you are a photographer and serious about the craft, or not so serious....this is the best $25 you can spend. Period. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 2:34 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Thanks for the comments Chuck, Robert and Jack!
I appreciate your kind words and endorsement.
Mahalo! |
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Angel Valentin, Photographer
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Palmer | PR | Puerto Rico | Posted: 2:48 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> Jack, PR, I know...was just messing with Joe |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 3:18 PM on 02.17.11 |
| ->> Does anyone know who I need to call in order to get Final Four credentials? |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington/Normal | IL | United States | Posted: 3:27 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> http://www.ncaa.com/media
:)
Couldn't resist...
Been around this site since October of 2002. It's been money well spent. Lot's of good information still available on the boards and I get a great amount of laughs too. |
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Josh Peckler, Photographer
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 5:03 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> "(It's like bad television shows ... I just don't tune into them.)"
That's the easiest way to maintain sanity ... those topics you don't find interesting ... or would not rather read or participate in ... skip them ...
Much of life is sorting the wheat from the chaff ... Like many assignments we all work each and every day ... not all of the aspects are enjoyable or fun tasks to complete, but we do the job as best we can despite the bumps in the road ... SS is no different ... there is an abundance offered here that is worth much more than the fee for admittance ... enjoy and savor that which benefits you ... ignore the rest ... |
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Doug Strickland, Photographer
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Chattanooga | TN | USA | Posted: 5:38 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Like Jamey and Nic, I'm a young photographer just getting started in the business. I certainly recognize that there's a certain amount of "breaking in" for many new members to SS, and have often thought it would be appropriate to have a "stickied" thread of the most commonly asked questions by new members and a resource to find their answers. Most of the new member hazing rituals could be avoided that way.
I have personally found SS to be a valuable resource, and not only to new photographers. With any public forum, however, you are going to have a few outspoken individuals who sour the milk. Often the vehemency and outspokenness of these individuals makes their opinion seem more prevalent than it actually is. We end up attributing the opinion of the outspoken minority to that of the majority, if you will. I am typically a lurker, and only chime in when I feel like I could offer valuable input or have a question I think is important. There are a LOT of SS members just like me who probably don't approve of some of the problems you mention. We just don't take the time to acknowledge it or post in response to it.
Several people here have already made the point, but I'm going to reiterate it. If you feel like there is a problem with the attitudes of people on the site, don't be a part of the silent majority. Speak up, work to encourage good values and informative posts, and make sure that the people who are heard from aren't simply the most vocal dissenters and the killjoys. Giving up doesn't benefit anyone. Working to promote change will always help in the long run. |
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Dirk Weaver, Photographer, Assistant
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 7:00 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Joe,
Sometimes you have to consider the source... |
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Richard Uhlhorn, Photographer
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Chelan Falls | WA | USA | Posted: 8:29 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Robert... you beat me to it. I've been a member here for a number of years. I'm certainly not in the league of many here, but this site has been a major resource for me when I have a question.
I do agree with Joe on some points, however. Sometimes it does seem to be an 'Old Boys Club,' but I just don't involve myself in the histrionics that go on at times. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 8:44 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Angel,
WTF is Palmer???
Is that a new town??
I'm only asking, I'm from Guayama,
Y |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:22 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> OKAY!!! mark this down folks Feb. 17, 2011....SERIOUSLY! this was the FIRST EVER post from Yamil Sued that DID NOT have an !!!!!!!!!!!.
Holy Craptapolis! I can now die and got to photo heaven/hell...btw, there is no real difference in those. |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Piqua | OH | USA | Posted: 10:57 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> "I can now die and got to photo heaven/hell...btw, there is no real difference in those."
Chuck, are you telling me this is a good as it gets?
For what it is worth, I sometimes wonder why I renew. The many reasons listed above pretty much spell it out.
Another reason ... with fewer and fewer photo stores out there, this is one of the few places I can go to get, what I feel, is good information on equipment by guys and gals who use it every day. Whenever I have a problem/question, I usually begin my trouble-shooting process right here. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:52 PM on 02.17.11 |
->> Chuck, if I was communicating whit you, I would actually care about your comment...
You have just perfectly illustrated why we lost a good member. |
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Thomas Boyd, Photographer
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 1:11 AM on 02.18.11 |
->> Joe: You are often the voice of reason here. I hereby ask you to remain a member. Your thoughts are valued and needed on these boards.
Walter: It's time you came back as well. You left for a good long break.
Bill: Come back and I'll pay your dues. Just kidding. But, you should come back anyway. We need someone that can keep Chuck in line. |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 2:06 AM on 02.18.11 |
| ->> I will renew soon but I do wish some people will realize life is too damm short to press the negativity button so damm fast. |
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Kevin M. Cox, Photographer, Assistant
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Galveston & Houston | TX | US | Posted: 2:17 AM on 02.18.11 |
->> I hate to see you leave Joe, I think you have been a valuable resource here and hope you reconsider at some point.
I agree that the message board seems out of control sometimes and I often wish we could tone it down. I think the problem arises from the fact that so many of us know each other personally (or feel like we do after so much time together here). Because of this people feel more casual and it lends itself to less than professional postings.
I have been a member of SportsShooter.com since day one and I don't ever hesitate to renew each June. As others before me have written, this site is by far the best bang-for-the-buck in the world of photography. I consider it a very valuable resource and hope it is around for years to come.
As Jeff Loy so perfectly said, I'm happy to support those like Bert, Brad, Grover, Jason (and everyone else who contributes to this site) who have spent YEARS of their lives working to help their colleagues. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 3:46 AM on 02.18.11 |
->> Hey Grover, could we add a [deep sigh] rating to the message board?
--Mark |
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Colin Heyburn, Photographer
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ARMAGH | NI | United Kingdom | Posted: 6:19 AM on 02.18.11 |
| ->> I think it is a bit like just about every other message board I have ever been on in that there is a lot of bitching about something or other, with egos and chests being pushed out. But if you look beneath that there is quite a lot of good and interesting stuff going on. I also appreciate the amount of hard work that goes on behind the scenes by the boys as it is endless and thankless. So maybe it is time to say a big thanks to all of the hard work put into keeping these site up and running. |
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Angel Valentin, Photographer
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Palmer | PR | Puerto Rico | Posted: 7:53 AM on 02.18.11 |
| ->> Yamil, Palmer is the shithole hood that sits @ the foot of El Yunque. The panaderia there makes a kick ass sandwich de pernil. It's actually Rio Grande but the post office (where I have a PO Box) there sez Palmer is the actual town. So I live in Palmer, only 'cuz that's where my beach apartment is. But I'm from San Juan. |
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Bradley Leeb, Photographer
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Champaign | IL | USA | Posted: 8:19 AM on 02.18.11 |
->> First of all, I love this site. It has been an incredible source of education and inspiration for me.
Unfortunately, the message boards sometimes feel like a school yard playground with basically a couple of bullies running around like they own the joint. The bullies get away with making rude, mean, and unnecessary comments and then hide behind the blanket of, "Hey man, I'm just being honest" or "Hey, lighten up, I'm just kidding around." I still am in shock that in the name of humor, someone would post in a public forum, "You're old, stupid, and poor..." I've got a pretty good sense of humor, but in no way have I EVER felt that poverty is something to joke about. Maybe that's because I teach in a school district where 70.7% of the students are considered low-income.
It amazes me sometimes the comments that come from journalists, who, in my opinion, should be working towards being trusted, respected members of the community. If you are not trustworthy, why would anyone come to you for their news and information? There is so much concern about the public losing trust in photojournalists because of digital manipulation, etc. Well, trust is earned through character as well, so those who show poor judgement in their character are doing the profession just as much harm. How would you feel if other trusted members of your community made a blog or forum post like the one above? What if your local middle school principal had posted that? Your local news anchor? Your congressman/congresswoman? The community would be up in arms over such behavior. I also wonder how many publishers would appreciate knowing that their staff members are representing their organizations with some of the "humor" and "honesty" that is thrown around here.
It's been said a number of times that members should just ignore threads or comments that don't interest them, but I disagree. I think that by sitting back and NOT speaking up about behavior that we believe is wrong, we are sending the message through silence that it is ok. It's also increasingly difficult to ignore that kind of behavior because some of these bullies feel it necessary to interject their opinion, commentary, sarcasm, ALL the time whether they have something productive to say or not. Some of these bullies feel like we ALWAYS want to know what their useless commentary is, and frankly, many of us don't.
Finally, I'd like to propose using the message board rating system much like the NBA's technical fouls policy. In the NBA, after 10 technical fouls (I think that's the number, but I may be mistaken), you get suspended for a game. What if a system here was developed where after receiving so many "inappropriates" and "off topics" you were suspended from posting to the message boards for a week. Reach that number again, it becomes a two week suspension, and so on. That way members ultimately have a say in what they want to read, and who they want to read it from on these boards.
Ok, getting off my soap box, enjoy your mornings. |
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Jason Burfield, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 10:04 AM on 02.18.11 |
->> "Finally, I'd like to propose using the message board rating system much like the NBA's technical fouls policy. In the NBA, after 10 technical fouls (I think that's the number, but I may be mistaken), you get suspended for a game. What if a system here was developed where after receiving so many "inappropriates" and "off topics" you were suspended from posting to the message boards for a week. Reach that number again, it becomes a two week suspension, and so on. That way members ultimately have a say in what they want to read, and who they want to read it from on these boards. "
Bradley,
That is exactly how the ratings work. It's a 'self-policing' forum.
-- Jason |
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Bradley Leeb, Photographer
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Champaign | IL | USA | Posted: 10:39 AM on 02.18.11 |
->> Jason, I disagree. I think the ratings aren't as functional as they could potentially be. "Self-policing" really doesn't seem to work as some of the biggest offenders seem to thrive on getting "inappropriates". They wear them like a badge of honor and it appears that they seem to be egged on even more by receiving them.
What I am proposing is an actual consequence for actions deemed inappropriate or not necessary. In working with high school students, I've found that most times, behavior, work habits, etc. will not change unless there is an actual consequence involved. With the extra-curricular marching band I taught, I had all sorts of problems with tardiness and absences. The kids in the band received PE waivers for their participation in the band. For two years, I harped on them the importance of promptness and attendance, just because it was their responsibility to the group, blah, blah, blah. With it being an extra-curricular, volunteer group, I didn't have much leverage with them, UNTIL I came up with consequences. I developed a system where if they had so many tardies, or unexcused absences, or total absences, then they would not receive their PE waiver and would be required to make up that class. Guess what? The clear consequence for actions provided a dramatic increase in attendance.
Point is, "self-policing" doesn't do much. I would love to see a clear, tangible consequence for inappropriate behavior. |
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Robert Longhitano, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 10:49 AM on 02.18.11 |
| ->> The message board was MUCH better when we had Luau's. Just saying ;-) |
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Jason Burfield, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 10:56 AM on 02.18.11 |
->> Bradley,
That is how it works.
Here's the story we ran when I added it back in 2004.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1281
Perhaps the bigger issues is that those who are not happy with the tone of things are *not* actually marking posts as inappropriate?
-- Jason |
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Bradley Leeb, Photographer
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Champaign | IL | USA | Posted: 11:02 AM on 02.18.11 |
->> Wow, I had no idea, and I'm sure many other members didn't as well. That is INCREDIBLY useful to know that that IS in place, and maybe now that the article has been brought to the surface again, more people will exercise their "democratic right" to police the board.
Thanks Jason! |
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