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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Watch this:
Robert Seale, Photographer
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Logan Mock-Bunting, Photographer
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 7:35 PM on 02.12.11 |
| ->> No, seriously. Do what Robert said and watch that. |
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Jason Joseph, Photographer
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Dublin | OH | USA | Posted: 8:52 PM on 02.12.11 |
| ->> Its sad how right John is, but how few people follow his advice. |
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Richard Hamm, Photographer
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Athens | Ga | US | Posted: 9:21 PM on 02.12.11 |
->> Yes. Mr. Harrington hits it again.
The thing is though, every photographer must abide by these rules. I'm sick of being underbid on a job at a rate that wouldn't cover even my travel expenses. People need to learn how to run their business, or hurry up and fail & get our of our way.
I had a conversation with a student photographer who wanted advice on how to get access to major sporting events and concerts. He said he was getting a nursing degree so the money didn't matter & he was willing to shoot for free.
I restrained myself and didn't break his kneecaps. Instead I told him, what a coincidence because I was going to get a nursing degree & because I make plenty of money as a photographer, I would be willing to work at the hospital he was going to work at for free.
I think he got my point.
I have no problem with part-timers. (I made a tons of money in the past cleaning up their mistakes). But they need to learn they are killing the heroes who influenced them to pick up a camera in the first place. |
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Mark Sutton, Photographer
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Herndon | VA | USA | Posted: 11:39 PM on 02.13.11 |
| ->> Thanks Robert. I just posted this on my Facebook page. |
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Darrell Miho, Photographer
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Los Angeles : SFO : HNL | CA | usa | Posted: 11:02 PM on 02.18.11 |
| ->> in case someone missed it earlier this week, i'm bumping this back to the top... |
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John Korduner, Photographer
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Baton Rouge | LA | United States | Posted: 4:56 AM on 02.19.11 |
->> Richard,
I hate to be Debbie Downer, but I'm confident the nursing profession is eager to obtain your assistance (if you're qualified of course). That profession is in dire need of assistance, regardless of competence. Every single week I have multiple UI appeals from RNs who were fired because they nearly killed a patient. What's funny is the fact they're in such short supply, they never remain unemployed for more than a few weeks, regardless of their past digressions....and they all appeal their unemployment claims simply to anger their previous employers.
If you ever want to do some pro bono work, I'd happily pay your annual CPS fee, and I'd even sweeten the deal by purchasing you a new lens each year...if you let me bank the hours.
There are also a lot of engineers on SS, I'm sure they'd also cheerily accept any free assistance you would be willing to provide for their community service obligations as well. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 9:18 AM on 02.19.11 |
->> Something in John's video needs a bit of clarification...
In his video, he talks about charging for equipment rental and uses the example of "video guys"...pointing out that they charge both for crew and equipment depending on format, etc.
If you really believe in the still photography model John and others are championing, the last thing you want to do is model your business after video. Almost all video work is work-for-hire with no rights and no royalties. If you are a videographer or any other crewmember, you get paid a day rate, plus expenses. If you bring your own gear, you get to bill for that. That's it. Other than the occasional good meal at the end of a shoot, that's all you'll ever see.
There are of course exceptions (union environments for example), but the vast majority of video work is simple work-for-hire. Not exactly the kind of model generally promoted here. |
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Paul Goodman, Assistant
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Georgetown | ky | USA | Posted: 8:46 PM on 02.19.11 |
| ->> Great Video! thanks for sharing. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 10:02 PM on 02.19.11 |
->> David, what I took from that was this: The tendency to do things for free as opposed to charging a fair rate for the work done.
I recently attended the Iowa Professional Photographers Winter conference for a day and a half. Part of the time was spent with Joel Grimes, a commercial photographer who has shot some pretty big accounts.His example: He mentioned that if you aren't charging for photoshop time, you're losing money. Some photographers have someone else do the photoshop work. They still mark up the work and treat as it should be treated - as a revenue stream. Joel is charging thousands of dollars a day plus the other services.
My take away from this is simply this: Charge for what you're doing and quit throwing it in. When you throw it in, you are telling the client it has no value and you're increasing your cost. How stupid is that?
The giving up of one's copyright without a significant amount of money in return is non negotiable. I'm sure that isn't what John would ever advocate. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 10:13 PM on 02.19.11 |
->> Richard,
I missed your comments before making my other post.
Let's be clear: The thought of all photographers acting with good business practices is never going to happen. As one group falls off another group will take it's place.
I posted not too long ago that the bottom feeders go to the GWCs etc and it takes them out of the market. Since most of your problems come from people who you make the least on, this isn't a bad thing.
How do you deal with the others that want you to cut your price? Pricing is part real world, part art form. It has to ultimately come down to 2 things: You have to be different than everyone else, and you have to show the potential client why using you is worth a little more because how you're different will make them happier in the long run.
That, my friend, is what marketing is all about. |
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Richard Hamm, Photographer
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Athens | Ga | US | Posted: 4:39 PM on 02.21.11 |
->> Michael
Good points.
To answer your question about clients that want reduced pricing I will tell you a story about a particular client I used to shoot for.
I had been shooting assignments for a client on a regular basis for a set fee that I thought was fair at the time. After a few months of work they were happy with, I was pulled into an office and told my fee would be cut in half because of a new budgett. I told them thank you for the work & to call me when they can pay me what I agreed on in the past & I couldn't work at those rates. It's just business. I wasn't offended, I understand the times. I think the art director was a little offended so I very, very nicely explained I would be put out of business by those fees. I was very nice throughout the whole thing.
Well, a few weeks later I got a call from the art director who was in a huff. She said they had found another photographer to shoot their stuff and after looking at his pictures, they were unusable. (Karma?) She wanted to know if I could drop everything I was doing, drive to three assignments, shoot several scenes and deliver the photos before the end of the day. The pay, the reduced rate for 1 assignment. (She was trying to lump three shoots into 1 and rip me off). I asked her if she had any other options. She said no, the product had to be delivered to the printers by 10pm that night & they didn't know of any other photographers available. I responded I would be willing to shoot each assighment at double my normal rate (not the 1/2 rate, but MY normal rate) for each assignment. I wasn't trying to be a jerk, but she was going to make me cancel on other clients (friends engagement portraits so I knew they wouldn't mind) so I had to up my fee to make up for all the trouble. She reluctantly agreed. I shot great stuff realy, realy fast and got paid.
I'm not saying I'm the worlds greatest or anything. But I'm a professional who knows what he's capable of, and I know how much my time is worth. The people who go with GWC's will pay the price some day & thats when it is important for us to point out why we are worth it. The other photog had weeks to pull of these shoots an failed miserably. I had 6 hours from planning to delivering of images and did so no problem. Well, maybe a little bit of a rush and lots of sweat, but I did know I was capable and did pull it off.
That client used me at my standard rate from then on. No complaits and lots of recomendations.
I agree with your point, you have to show a client what you are worth. When I talk to students I explain a great portfolio is important, but working your butt off and always being professional is more important. The person hiring you to shoot, might not know the difference between a portrait shot with on camera nasty flash in 2 seconds & one crafted with amazing lighting techniques and true skill.
I used to ask clients why they picked me and some of my old clients even told me they saw better portfolio's when looking for a photographer, but they were impressed with my professionalism & trusted me more than the guy with the amazing portfolio dressed in a stained shirt and 15mins late to the appointment. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 8:07 PM on 02.21.11 |
->> Richard, I am truly happy that you had the opportunity to show the client why you were worth the difference.
In this day and age, the biggest challenge we have as business people, regardless of what business we are actually in, is to not do things that make us look like everything else. When you don't do things that are "different", you get treated like a commodity - and that means you get commodity rates.
You raise a great point, Richard. Sometimes it's not about your skill as a photographer, it's about your skill at listening to the client and building a relationship. You showed the client why you were different - one of those things being a higher level of customer service - and you got paid what you should have been paid.
Many years ago, I was a Polaroid Tech Rep. I called on cops, scientists, virtually any business person that needed photography in their business - and that included professional photographers. I noticed after a while that the best photographers weren't necessarily the best at business. I remember one guy who was mediocre photo skill wise but had terrific business skills. The guy had photographers working for him. He was making serious money.
This is one reason why I keep telling the ones in school to take as many business courses as they can. Most people can't tell a good portfolio from a bad one. Knowing how to communicate, market one's self, and run a business - that can easily be the difference in whether you'll be successful or not. |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 12:01 AM on 02.22.11 |
->> Richard and Michael,
Would you mind if I took these last two posts, turned them into a pamphlet and sold them as how to succeed as a freelance photographer? Your two posts really distilled what you need to do as a photographer and a businessperson if you want to succeed.
These posts should be Photography 101 at every school. |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 12:02 AM on 02.22.11 |
| ->> And your mid-term will be a test on Harrington. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 11:58 PM on 02.22.11 |
->> Sam...do I get a photo byline?
M |
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