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Really? This is an offer to use one of my photos? Really?
Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 2:53 PM on 02.04.11 |
->> Dear Sir,
I am from the polish magazine Konski Targ (Horse market).
We have an article about horse "Lookin at Lucky", written by JErzy Fedorski. Unfortunately we have not any good photos tuned to this article.
We found some interesing pictures on your website:
(LINK I REMOVED)
I want ask you for permission for using this photo in our article.
If it's possible, do You have this photo in bigger resolution and dimensions? How to download those photos if it's possible?
Of course We add information about author of this photo.
Moreover we can write information about Your webpage (for example: name and website address) for free in return.
Yours sincerely,
Adam Kutrasinski
Konski Targ
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So...I get to give them my work for free, but they will FOR FREE put my webpage information up so MORE DEADBEATS who don't want to pay can offer me more exposure FOR FREE. As if they are doing me a favor.
UNREAL!!! |
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Allen Murabayashi, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 2:58 PM on 02.04.11 |
| ->> they can't be serio(us) |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 3:01 PM on 02.04.11 |
| ->> Poland must be using American market trends to determine the value of a photograph. |
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Erik Markov, Photographer
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anywhere | IN | | Posted: 4:38 PM on 02.04.11 |
| ->> I'd mail them the photos and include in the box some of that real American horse by product to illustrate your point. |
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Philip Johnson, Photographer
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Garland | TX | USA | Posted: 6:03 PM on 02.04.11 |
| ->> When you buy photo equipment don't you look for the cheapest price you can get it for? Why should this magazine be any different. They made an offer it is up to Scott to counter offer with what he would require for the use of the image. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 8:13 PM on 02.04.11 |
| ->> Philip- That's why there are Vietnamese and Russian knock-offs. To remind you you only get what you pay for. |
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Corey Perrine, Photographer
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Augusta | GA | USA | Posted: 10:42 PM on 02.04.11 |
->> Philip,
I fail to see your logic. You don't walk in a camera store offering a pat on the back for a camera and work from there-- it's insulting.
What these guys did is deliver a insult wrapped in a compliment.
They, off the bat, deliberately or inadvetantly, de-valued Scott's work by saying. "Hey, we want to make money off your hard work but don't want to pay you BUT we'll give you credit and that is suppose to pay the bills." |
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Mike Janes, Photographer
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Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 11:55 PM on 02.04.11 |
->> I get these emails all the time - from small magazines, colleges, websites, fan blogs to national magazines, major universities, major league baseball teams, national TV networks, etc. Too many of them do it and doesn't matter if they're a small company or worth billions. It's not about getting the best price in many instances, often it's they just don't put any value on what photographers do, the mentality that "sure we'll use it, but it's not worth paying for".
Case in point: Just had a MLB team request images with the standard "we'll give you credit" line. I quoted him for the usage so instead of emailing me back he sends an extremely insulting email to the team I work with trying to make it sound like I'm doing something wrong by charging for the usage. He says I should be giving them all my rights in trade for credentials, because that's what some other teams do! Ended with they'll have the team photographer do some photos of the guy instead in spring. Doesn't seem to get that the team photographer will be on the clock when he does those photos!
It's insulting, and always just brings my thoughts back to the Harlan video! |
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Danny Munson, Photographer
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San Dimas | Ca | United States | Posted: 12:10 PM on 02.05.11 |
->> After every race it is the same thing for me. Here is from last week. I like how he quotes how many countries this magazine is in, like I'm supposed to be excited that my images will be seen all over the world. The ad rate this mag charges is very expensive as well.
Im xxx xxxxx team director for xxxxxxxxxx. xxxxxx and xxxxxx are riding for us this year and are the subjects in an article for xxxxxxxxx Magazine. The editor would like to use a couple photos of the boys and you have some great ones.
Not sure how this works, I know you would get photo credit and the magazine is distributed to 155 countries worldwide. Basically the xxxxxx Journal for the World.
Please feel free to contact me at xxxxxxxxx
Never even emailed me back when I explained to him how it does work. |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 12:38 PM on 02.05.11 |
->> Danny, I get the same reaction.
Valley Yellow Pages (355,000 cir) wanted to use one of my images from Millerton Lake for the FRONT COVER. They said I would get credit (I knew this was not good). So I quoted them licensing fees for one year at $1,850 OR I would be willing to trade for a full page ad.
Crickets.
I'm tempted to ask them for a free full page ad and that I would tell everyone I knew. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 7:51 PM on 02.05.11 |
->> Well, the thing is they might try to just steal the low res image unless they did already and it failed. Good luck collecting unless you know a lawyer in Poland.
Seriously, I'd send them a quote. With a link for a Zloty to dollar conversion. Can't hurt to try. |
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Jason Myers, Photographer
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West Palm Beach | FL | | Posted: 9:59 PM on 02.05.11 |
->> This is everywhere....and I'm getting sick and tired of it. Most people simply don't value what we do as a profession. They think that because they can buy a moderately priced Nikon or Canon, take a photo and have their friends tell them how good their blurry, underexposed photos are that they are as good as anyone else. Something has to be done soon to change people's perceptions or it's going to continue getting worse.
Simply put, people just don't value what a real photographer is capable of, the time and experience to learn their craft and the costs associated with running this type of business.
I'm fired up right now because three times this past week I've had people question my very appropriate pricing or tell me I was too expensive. Expensive compared to what? some guy with a camera who will work for photo credit?
One instance is a company who makes model horse jumps that they wish to sell online for $50 a piece. They told me they have sold over 500 of a particular model and want 10 models photographed for the web. I quoted them $50 per edited image for a total of $500 for all ten. They went nuts about how I was waaayyy too much for them. Mind you they only had to sell ten products to recover their cost and they sold over 500 of one particular model. I told them the price was firm and reminded them that they have a cost of doing business and so do I. I wouldn't ask them to work for free or below their cost and can't afford to do it myself.
A day later I received an email and have the job set for this Wednesday.....
Is there anything that can be done to educate the general public?? |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 11:26 PM on 02.05.11 |
->> Just keep standing your ground.
Being as how this is a huge hobby as well as a profession, far too many people really don't care if they make money.
In my workshops I find hugely talented folks whom I try to wake up to the fact that they are good and their work has value. I get a blank stare most of the time. It's the combination of people who view photography as a hobby and those who are tremendously talented but who just don't care about making money from it. Nothing you can do except cultivate your own standards and reputation and don't work for free. Ever; except for non-profits whom you wish to support. |
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Erik Markov, Photographer
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anywhere | IN | | Posted: 12:52 AM on 02.06.11 |
->> It's the same people who walk up to me while I'm on assignment and say that some day maybe they'll "have a camera just like mine" (mkIII)
They usually have some dslr, canon more likely than nikon. They think that the camera makes a diff. I wish I didn't work for a newspaper, having to be courteous and respectful. I could give them my honest opinion; you suck now. You're still going to suck even after spending $10,000.
I had a guy walk up to me Friday and say "when mine grows up maybe it will get big like yours." I walked away very creeped out.
Thing is, I don't get the comments when I'm shooting my D700, it's only with the larger body MKIII that anyone says anything. It looks "more professional" Huh?
People are stupid and pathetic. |
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Keith Kountz, Photographer, Assistant
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Fresno | CA | USA | Posted: 2:59 AM on 02.06.11 |
| ->> my favorite line to say is "I can't eat photo credit" or the best one is "your (insert: newspaper, Magazine, Website) makes terrible diapers for my kid!" |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 3:41 AM on 02.06.11 |
->> People are stupid and pathetic because they have a misconception about camera equipment and the quality of the resulting photograph? I thought that working for a newspaper was forcing you to be "courteous and respectful."
:) |
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Guy Rhodes, Photographer
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East Chicago | IN | USA | Posted: 4:31 AM on 02.06.11 |
->> Erik:
My favorite line in those situations is, "The carpenter builds the house, not the hammer." Respectful, and to-the-point. |
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Corey Perrine, Photographer
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Augusta | GA | USA | Posted: 5:40 AM on 02.06.11 |
->> Everything I learned about business I learned from watching The Dark Knight.
"If you're good at doing something, never do it for free."
- The Joker |
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Max Waugh, Photographer
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Bothell | WA | USA | Posted: 7:46 AM on 02.06.11 |
->> This is nothing new. Believe it or not, I'd say the percentage of requests I get like this has _gone down_ in the last couple years. Despite the industry crumbling, microstock killing licensing fees, etc., I'm getting a few more "educated" requested every year from folks who understand that I'm going to be asking for money. They must be reading SportsShooter.
Granted, they're always on a "limited budget," but at least the free requests have diminished slightly. ;) |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 5:43 PM on 02.06.11 |
->> "I quoted them licensing fees for one year at $1,850 OR I would be willing to trade for a full page ad"
Jeez, they wouldn't even spring for an ad? Now THAT'S cheap. |
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Doug Pizac, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | USA | Posted: 9:43 PM on 02.06.11 |
->> When I'm offered a credit line in lieu of payment I reply by asking the person if he/she would give up their paycheck in lieu of a thank you recognition notice on the company's website. When they say no I tell them neither do I. Or if they say they're a non-profit/charity/etc., I ask them if they would split their next weekly paycheck with me as a compromise. That way they can have the satisfaction of being charitable and I can be paid. When they say no, I counter with then why should I give up 100% of my income when you're not willing to give up 50%. Either method usually has the person suddenly discovering there is a budget to pay me or the conversation ends with them looking elsewhere. Either way they educate themselves that photographers expect to be compensated for the work they do just like the person asking. And if the person feels foolish, the way I pose my question makes them realize they did it to themselves.
Another tactic poised to me recently is that if I let the non-profit use my photo for free, they'll sign a document recognizing the amount they would have had to pay as a charitable donation whereupon I can write off the licensing fee on my income taxes. This way they get my image without having to pay for it and I essentially get my money in the form of a tax refund. A win-win for both of us. The HUGE problem with this is that this scam is highly illegal in the eyes of the IRS. Tangible expenses like the cost of having prints made are deductible, but services and licensing fees are not. The brother of a good friend of mine is an IRS fraud investigator. When I ran the offer by him he said doing so would trigger an automatic audit and might throw me in jail along with hefty penalties; and the non-profit's people would suffer worse since the scam was their idea. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 10:39 PM on 02.06.11 |
->> I've worked with the public in a selling situation for over40 years. I've written about this before but I will say it again - it isn't just photography but a general demeaning of the value of other people's work. It was happening before the recession but it certainly got worse when money got tight.
Jason, I'm proud that you stood your ground; happier that you got the gig.
I had time to think about this devaluation driving back from Des Moines today - it is a 3 .5 hour drive. With all the turmoil, it still comes down to knowing your cost of doing business, determining pricing that is profitable and still competitive. I don't know everyone's pricing schedules, but my sense is that many of you need to use a little more sophistication.
We have written before about if $100 assignments are a good idea. I said at the time, if it takes 15 minutes to shoot and 15 minutes to process, that's one thing. If it's 8 hours work - that's something different.
A friend of mine is a successful Wedding/Portrait/Senior photographer in St. Louis. You may remember the Groupon thread; he was the one that grossed $50,000 and split it with Groupon. Here's the rest of the story. His weekends were already filled, Groupon helped fill in the rest of the week. I asked him the critical question: "How did the add ones work?" His response was it added additional thousands of dollars, got him additional business and began relationships with lots of new clients - many of them younger people he might not have otherwise have ever seen.
This guy knows his costs of doing business; he "CUT" the price as opposed to matching a GWC's "deal". Pricing cutting isn't his standard operating procedure but a tool in his bag that helps achieve a blend and make him more money.
I could write pages on this, I won't bore you. I will say this: Marketing comes down to one thing: Selling why you are different than everyone else. When they tell you you're "high priced" what they are really doing many times is asking you WHY you are charging more. If you have a competitive advantage, you play that card here.
Structure your pricing to produce different things at different price points; the higher the price, the more that's included (DUH). But don't make your marketing and sales plan nothing more than matching every lowball deal. I know of no better way to go out of business.
It's late; I'm running on too little sleep; I hope this makes some sense. If you have any questions email me and I'll do my best to answer them.
MF |
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Ed Wolfstein, Photographer, Assistant
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Burlington | VT | USA | Posted: 6:58 PM on 02.07.11 |
->> Boy, if I had a nickel...
Have them read Matt Brown's article "Free is Killing Me!" from back in 2008: http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1989
It's been part of my negotiation tactics for a couple of years now, and, for the most part, successfully illustrating a point. Those who still don't get it... well, I don't want to develop business relationships with those types anyway.
That's the "bad" and sometimes "ugly". The "good" is that PhotoShelter is bringing me eyeballs and business. Whatever wizardry Allen, Grover, Jason, et al are doing with their SEO and Google stuff - it's working. But I still have to deal with the issue of "free" periodically. So be it. I just have to educate them: one by one...
Cheers!
- Ed. |
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