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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
NCAA Rules ....
Doug Steinbock, Photographer
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West Springfield | MA | USA | Posted: 12:42 PM on 01.18.11 |
| ->> I was just talking to a fella who said it is a violation of NCAA rules to sell images of college athletes via the internet. He claimed that a NCAA official informed him that it was against NCAA rules for photogs to sell images to families and the athletes. A player could be suspended for this. Is anyone aware of this rule? |
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Doug Steinbock, Photographer
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West Springfield | MA | USA | Posted: 1:12 PM on 01.18.11 |
| ->> ok, so I found several threads about this issue dating back to 2006. But, the rule is very confusing. Some say it's ok. others say it is a violation. Where can I find the 2011 policy? Does anyone know? |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:15 PM on 01.18.11 |
| ->> Doug, I have found there are a lot of misinformed folks out there who purport to know the rules of the NCAA. I would check with the NCAA (website) or call their offices and check the rules myself at the source. I never take much stock in the old "well I heard it from a guy who heard it from another guy who was the brother-in-law of another guy...." info. |
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Michael Chang, Photographer
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Robertsdale | AL | USA | Posted: 4:43 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> I recently inquired about this after I shot the Music City Bowl.
I really depends on the school and the organization. The Music City Bowl organization said that as a freelancer, I can post pictures for public viewing, just cannot sell them.
One of the main schools I shoot for said that they do not care if I sell their photos, I just can't offer any discounts or give images to atheletes or their family. I believe that it's because it would imply that they are getting some sort of benefit that the general public cannot get, which is against NCAA policy. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 5:11 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> Selling images for personal or editorial use is commonly fine; however images used for commercial purposes (advertising, decorating stores, etc) is considered to violate athletes' amateur status and is thus disallowed in most situations.
Different schools have different policies and interpretations of the rules; you're best off talking to their SID first and then if any clarifications are needed, the questions will be passed along to their NCAA compliance officer. For the most part the schools are responsible for both interpreting and enforcing the NCAA's rules. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 6:59 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> You are correct. The "rules" are about as clear as a Hefeweizen because they are broadly defined.
Frank Victores posted a question about a month ago that I responded to where I referenced I contacted NCAA's offices... Three attempts later I still haven't gotten a direct answer. (which is why I never followed up) |
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Tim Casey, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | USA | Posted: 7:21 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> I've read the NCAA Manual about this, there are specific points about photography. My understanding, and the way it's always been explained to me is that:
I CAN sell photos for "fair market value" to student-athletes and their family.
I CANNOT give the photos to student-athletes and their family without payment.
I CAN give photos to fans or the public without payment (but why would I give away photos?)
I CANNOT sell photos to fans or the public until the student-athlete is no longer in school.
However, publications are allowed to sell "reprints" of images that have appeared in newspapers and magazines. I can't get a clear answer on whether or not that includes images that were in online galleries as well. |
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Peter Buehner, Photographer
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Orono | ME | USA | Posted: 7:50 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> I have gone through this very question at the University where I shoot. Through the University's counsel and many meetings with the SID I can tell you what they informed me and what I have figured out through this:
Giving a photo to an athlete or to a parent would be a gift and would be a potential NCAA rules violation and could put the athletes eligibility in jeopardy.
Many of the NCAA rules are in effect to protect the institution where the athlete is participating. For two years, I shot for a University which didn't allow me to sell images (since they were bound to only sell images through their website contract company) while other local shooters were taking photos and selling them online. This isn't illegal but against NCAA policy. The only recourse that a school has is to revoke or deny credentials to the offending photographer. At least here, the school won't do that because in their eyes they are then losing exposure especially because local photogs are also AP and local paper shooters. They want photos out there shooting the events. Im not saying it is right or wrong but how this particular University operates.
Tim, I am curious where you get the "Cannot sell photos to the public but can sell to the athletes". That would seem to give unfair advantage to the athlete...exactly what the rules are trying to avoid. That is certainly not the case around here. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 8:49 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> That's the problem ... there are two major factors at play for non-editorial use ...
1. Eligibility infractions in the eyes of the NCAA.
2. Licensing of the images by either NCAA (for their post season events) and/or the school and/or the conference they participate in.
While the school may not necessarily be up in arms if you gave a print to an athlete ... the NCAA would ...
While the NCAA wouldn't necessarily be upset if you sold a print to John Q. Public ... the school/conference may feel cheated out of a licensing commission ...
While it may be quite ok by the NCAA ... the school/conference may want to control as much of the product as they can ... especially the larger D1 schools ...
It's a real can of worms ... they all want a piece of the pie ... |
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Doug Steinbock, Photographer
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West Springfield | MA | USA | Posted: 9:24 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> from the NCAA D2 Manual....
12.5.2.2 Use of a Student-Athlete’s Name or Picture without Knowledge or Permission. If a student-
athlete’s name or picture appears on commercial items (e.g., T-shirts, sweatshirts, serving trays, playing
cards, posters, photographs) or is used to promote a commercial product sold by an individual or agency without
the student-athlete’s knowledge or permission, the student-athlete (or the institution acting on behalf of
the student-athlete) is required to take steps to stop such an activity in order to retain his or her eligibility for
intercollegiate athletics. Such steps are not required in cases in which a student-athlete’s photograph is sold by an
individual or agency (e.g., private photographer, news agency) for private use. (Revised: 1/11/97 effective 8/1/97,
4/17/07) |
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Jim Pierce, Photographer
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Waltham | MA | USA | Posted: 9:33 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> Doug,
Same as the div 1 manual in my link but as I said the schools can and do trump that in some cases
It is about you relationship with the school
Jim |
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John Korduner, Photographer
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Baton Rouge | LA | United States | Posted: 10:53 PM on 01.18.11 |
->> I think this topic constantly recycles because people seem drawn to NCAA guidelines, which are far more lenient than most credential agreements. A far more productive approach is to look at the literature the various NCAA licensing companies are producing and selling to the universities.
Here's CI's recommendations which is extremely onerous from the onset. The basic theme being the assumption any photo usage other than the initial editorial publication is a violation absent prior written permission. Interestingly, while a specifically tailored enforcement policy is created for each school, they also offer recommendations about which violators the school may want to turn a blind eye.
http://collegiateimages.com/newsletter/2009/05/II/newsletter.html |
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Tim Cowie, Photographer
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Davidson | NC | USA | Posted: 9:36 AM on 01.19.11 |
->> I will try to outline the rules and what it means to photographers as simply as I can. I have worked for a variety of NCAA institutions (in their athletic departments) and have had compliance responsibilities within some of these departments.
You can sell your and/or give away your photos to whoever you like as long is you are doing so with the proper copyright privileges. The NCAA has no jurisdiction over this.
It is however, an NCAA violation to sell, give, whatever a photo of any NCAA athlete without consent of the NCAA and the particular school that athlete competes for. The only exception to this NCAA rule, is if you are an authorized vendor for that institution of which you have authority to sell photos on their behalf. It is also an NCAA violation to sell or give a photo to an athlete or any member of their family less than the fair market value for that photo (again assuming you are authorized by that school to sell the photos on their behalf).
Now it would sound like I just contradicted myself in the above two statements. I did, but here's the reason. The NCAA cannot charge you or enforce any law against you for selling photos. What the NCAA, the school and the conference for that school can do however, is ban you from receiving any credentials for breaking the NCAA rule.
If you want to sell photos, go ahead. You just have to realize that the school and/or the NCAA can deny you future credentials for doing so. In fact, the school has the exclusive rights to each of their student-athletes (the athlete actually signs a form granting the school to basically use and control their likeliness at the beginning of each school year). The NCAA also requires each school to actively protect the student-athlete from having their likeliness sold by non-approved sources.
One school I work for has pulled credentials for two photographers who have done this (which also got reported to the conference, so they can't get credentials for any of the conference schools) and another client I have has done the same for one photographer.
Confused still? I hope not, but again, you can do anything you want with your photos since the NCAA can't legally do anything to you, but remember, they can easily create a situation that doesn't allow you to get credentials for events. Schools and conferences like the SEC are really taking an aggressive approach to enforcing these rules. They see the financial value in their student-athletes and are going to great lengths to stop unauthorized sales.
Beware though of your copyright rights. In the case of a school like Kentucky, if you work for them, they usually require you to forgo your copyright privileges as they want to totally control and own their media content. In that case, selling a photo may be illegal. |
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Tim Casey, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | USA | Posted: 3:21 AM on 01.22.11 |
->> "Tim, I am curious where you get the "Cannot sell photos to the public but can sell to the athletes". That would seem to give unfair advantage to the athlete...exactly what the rules are trying to avoid. That is certainly not the case around here."
Peter,
I understand your point. The way it's been explained to me is that it would jeopardize the student-athlete's amateur status to sell photos for non-editorial use to the public.
It doesn't make sense to me either, so I just avoid it altogether and don't sell photos to the athlete or their family until they graduate from college, if ever. Not worth risking credentials for my employer, and too complicated to handle order fulfillment and figuring out who is a fan and who is a parent of the athlete. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 4:36 AM on 01.22.11 |
->> Selling photos of athlete to general public = posters on walls and large prints.
People don't buy 5x7's of Cam Newton, they want a huge print of him in all his glory, which does not portray an amateur athlete. |
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Alan Herzberg, Photographer
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Elm Grove | WI | USA | Posted: 10:59 AM on 01.22.11 |
->> A post above says, "The way it's been explained to me is that it would jeopardize the student-athlete's amateur status to sell photos for non-editorial use to the public."
First of all, isn't the sale of a print considered an editorial use of a photo?
Sec 12.5.2.1 (a) prohibits an athlete from accepting any remuneration for or permitting the use of his or her name or picture to advertise or promote directly the sale or use of a commercial product or service. The sale of a print to the athlete or the public is not advertising or directly promoting a commercial product.
Further, sec. 12.5.2.2 (see Doug Steinbock's post above for the full text) says that if an athlete's name or picture appears on a commercial item (such as t-shirts, sweatshirts, posters) without the athlete's knowledge or permission, the athlete or the school must take steps to stop that commercial use of the athlete's picture. However, no such steps are required where the athlete's photo is sold for private use.
If the NCAA explicitly states it does not require an athlete or school to take steps to stop the sale of photos for private use, I'm very confident the photographer's sale of prints for private use is not going to be a basis for revoking an athlete's amateur status. If an athlete has no responsibility to try to stop some third party from selling prints for private use, it would be a pretty crazy argument to say the athlete nevertheless can be sanctioned for those print sales. |
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Max Waugh, Photographer
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Bothell | WA | USA | Posted: 1:17 PM on 01.22.11 |
->> To add to Tim's post, you also have to be aware of whether your school has rights to sell (or let their photographers sell) images of athletes AFTER they graduate. In my case, I shot for the school and they had an online storefront for prints. It was okay to sell photos of current student athletes there, but ironically the school had to pull prints of the athletes after they graduated, because they had not come up with paperwork giving them the rights to profit off an athlete's image after they were gone. This was unfortunate for us in the case of those few athletes who became stars in the pros.
Of course, if you have permission from the school to sell prints independently and you're not shooting on their behalf, you may be in the clear... unless an athlete comes along and decides you don't have their permission to profit off their likeness.
OTOH, I have permission to donate some of my prints to charity auctions each year, but I have to wait until after their eligibility is up because that usage could violate NCAA rules. Yeah, it's all slightly convoluted. |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Northwest Missouri | MO | USA | Posted: 6:58 PM on 01.23.11 |
->> Tim,
Athletic departments would like you to give them the photos and then they will give them to that athletes when they deam appropriate. It's a difference of who does the final givin'. There's an alumn at K-State who's done this for years as his donation to the program. He gets a premium parking spot too. I don't believe his photos are ever published.
You may not hear a definitive opinion about this as the rules depend upon compliance officer interpretations. Folks who do sell may not want to say so since it could backfire if the NCAA ever comes up with a clear policy.
A fine point some make is that they sell prints only. Any other product might be seen as a product. An argument being made is that a plain print is journalistic and seen as editorial use. Once you add the player name or a border, you cross the line over to it being a product and commercialization of their likeness. |
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Tim Casey, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | USA | Posted: 8:41 PM on 01.23.11 |
| ->> I think we can all agree that it's an overly complicated and confusing issue. The NCAA doesn't address it very well, so the universities are paranoid about interpretations of NCAA rules and each university seems to have different policies towards photo sales/usage. |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 6:28 AM on 01.24.11 |
| ->> It's confusing intentionally, because the NCAA wants to profit from all photo sales, but legally they don't have an enforceable monopoly. |
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Tim Casey, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | USA | Posted: 1:49 AM on 01.25.11 |
| ->> Agreed. |
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Tim Cowie, Photographer
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Davidson | NC | USA | Posted: 10:42 AM on 01.25.11 |
->> It really isn't that confusing. If you call the NCAA (which you can do), they will give you the interpretation that every member school should be following. Granted, the bylaws that govern this concern are not always on the tip of the individual school's compliance officer, but that doesn't mean the rule is different from school to school.
You can sell anything you want that you own the copyright to. The NCAA does not allow anyone to sell photos of student-athletes other than the NCAA or the school itself (or an authorized vendor for that school). These two facts conflict with each other.
When you sell your photo of an NCAA athlete without being an authorized vendor for said school, the NCAA and that school are required to "protect" the student-athlete (and their interests) by stopping you from selling said photo. The only way they can do that is to deny you credentials to that school, other conference schools and NCAA events. That's the risk you take. They are becoming more aggressive in doing so - just ask those that shoot SEC sports.
What I wrote earlier -
"I will try to outline the rules and what it means to photographers as simply as I can. I have worked for a variety of NCAA institutions (in their athletic departments) and have had compliance responsibilities within some of these departments.
You can sell your and/or give away your photos to whoever you like as long is you are doing so with the proper copyright privileges. The NCAA has no jurisdiction over this.
It is however, an NCAA violation to sell, give, whatever a photo of any NCAA athlete without consent of the NCAA and the particular school that athlete competes for. The only exception to this NCAA rule, is if you are an authorized vendor for that institution of which you have authority to sell photos on their behalf. It is also an NCAA violation to sell or give a photo to an athlete or any member of their family less than the fair market value for that photo (again assuming you are authorized by that school to sell the photos on their behalf).
Now it would sound like I just contradicted myself in the above two statements. I did, but here's the reason. The NCAA cannot charge you or enforce any law against you for selling photos. What the NCAA, the school and the conference for that school can do however, is ban you from receiving any credentials for breaking the NCAA rule.
If you want to sell photos, go ahead. You just have to realize that the school and/or the NCAA can deny you future credentials for doing so. In fact, the school has the exclusive rights to each of their student-athletes (the athlete actually signs a form granting the school to basically use and control their likeliness at the beginning of each school year). The NCAA also requires each school to actively protect the student-athlete from having their likeliness sold by non-approved sources.
One school I work for has pulled credentials for two photographers who have done this (which also got reported to the conference, so they can't get credentials for any of the conference schools) and another client I have has done the same for one photographer.
Confused still? I hope not, but again, you can do anything you want with your photos since the NCAA can't legally do anything to you, but remember, they can easily create a situation that doesn't allow you to get credentials for events. Schools and conferences like the SEC are really taking an aggressive approach to enforcing these rules. They see the financial value in their student-athletes and are going to great lengths to stop unauthorized sales.
Beware though of your copyright rights. In the case of a school like Kentucky, if you work for them, they usually require you to forgo your copyright privileges as they want to totally control and own their media content. In that case, selling a photo may be illegal." |
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Thomas Campbell, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 12:28 PM on 01.25.11 |
->> Tim - thanks for outlining all this information.
What about after a student-athlete has graduated (or otherwise used up his eligibility)? Can you either sell or give pictures to that athlete or the athlete's family after they are no longer at the university? |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 1:28 AM on 01.26.11 |
->> As soon as they've graduated you're in the clear, as long as you're not violating trademarks or anything of that sort.
The line a lot of people draw between the NCAA and the schools in the NCAA isn't really there. The schools and coaches who comprise the NCAA have a lot of influence over and control most of the NCAA's decisions and rules, as opposed to the NCAA being an independent governmental organization which makes its own rules and dictates them to schools.
The rules are vague on many points to give the schools flexibility depending on preferences, state/local laws, independent legal advice, etc. |
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