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NCAA Image Use on Facebook
Frank Victores, Photographer
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Ft Thomas | KY | USA | Posted: 9:01 AM on 12.21.10 |
->> Our school is putting our NCAA BB images on Facebook where people can download full res images for free.
What are the NCAA rules if any about this?
And not to mention they don't have permission to do so.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Chris Hunt, Photographer
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Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 11:00 AM on 12.21.10 |
->> If the school owns the rights to the photographs or has license to distribute, then they are in the right. I assume they either had their own photographer(s) take the images under a work-for-hire agreement or they licensed the photos from an external source. If the former, then they can distribute for free anywhere they'd like. If the latter, you'd have to check the photo license to see if a violation has occurred.
NCAA has specific guidelines for sales, especially non-editorial, but no guidelines (that I know of) for free distribution. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 11:04 AM on 12.21.10 |
->> Frank who is "our" and how is the school getting the full res files?
As far as putting them up on Facebook for free downloading without permission. How they are disseminating the files is immaterial. How they got the files and what terms and stipulations are attached to those files are the key issues.
I'm pretty sure that there aren't any NCAA rules that would prevent a school from GIVING AWAY images of their student athletes. Even if the school wasn't giving them away and was selling prints, I believe that it is within the school's rights to sell those prints.
I think that the big issue here is how they are getting the files and under what terms. Has anyone made them aware that they are infringing (if in fact they really are) someone's IP? What was their response?
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Max Waugh, Photographer
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Bothell | WA | USA | Posted: 1:04 PM on 12.21.10 |
| ->> I know there's not a lot of money to be made in selling prints, but I still have to ask why they're just giving stuff away. Is it just a random shot here and there or a whole collection at a time? |
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Louis Brems, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Moline | IL | United States | Posted: 2:12 PM on 12.21.10 |
->> A question kind along these lines, We have a shop in our local mall that sells NCAA stadium images and images of players. All various sizes framed, unframed, etc etc. I am wondering who one contacts to license the images to sell commercially like that. The shop has asked me to sell some of my images to them to sell. But i know that there is a huge difference between Commercial gain and editorial.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Louis |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 2:19 PM on 12.21.10 |
->> Chris- Technically yes and technically no. I don't have the policy in front of me and haven't looked at it in years since it's been a non-issue for me, but it boils down to the language. If there is a policy that says the school can not "license" the photos then they slipped around a loophole. If the policy says they can not "distribute" the images, then the school is violating the policy. As Eric said though, I'm fairly certain the language doesn't cover this.
However, since I don't know the exact answer I sent an ambiguous email (don't worry Frank) to woman I know in the NCAA media relations department to get some clarification on this since it seems like we have this question posed every 4-5 months. |
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Max Waugh, Photographer
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Bothell | WA | USA | Posted: 2:44 PM on 12.21.10 |
->> Louis, I don't think there's any way you'd be able to give the shop images of eligible athletes (i.e., those still in school) to sell. Our former SID told me that the company that puts out crappy calendars featuring our football team and others around the country is hamstrung because they can only use shots of players who have graduated. As a result, their calendars often feature 2-3 shots of the former backup quarterback or running back rather than current stars.
Otherwise, as has been mentioned before in these types of threads, much is determined on a school by school basis. It's best to contact your SID first, since the school may not want any of their recognizable logos, branding, etc. (which appear in the photos) being distributed to third party sellers unless they're getting a cut.
It's possible the shop has a separate licensing agreement with the NCAA itself which allows them to get around these types of issues, but that doesn't necessarily free you up to give them your images. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 4:33 PM on 12.21.10 |
->> "Our school is putting our NCAA BB images on Facebook where people can download full res images for free. What are the NCAA rules if any about this?"
The NCAA is only concerned about commercial use of an athlete's likeness. The last time I looked at this issue, what the schools did with the images, providing they created the images, acquired all rights or distribution rights, was not the NCAA's concern and issues of control were strictly left up to the individual institution. While it is considered commerce to sell an image, the use of the image is not commercial if it does not sell, market, promote or endorse a product or service. What a school does with the images is controlled first at the conference level and then at the institution. The only other issue, to my knowledge, is the requirement by the NCAA is that student-athletes or their families are not given preferential pricing or accessing to the images.
The athletes grant the right for the institution and conference to distribute their likeness and quotes as the see fit via the perpetual model-release clause in their scholarship contract. The have no recourse with the University, their agents or assignees.
The effect on the market IMHO in minimal since photographers were not likely given access and permission to sell images in the first place. If this were the 1990's when access was free and nearly unfettered it would be a big issue.
"And not to mention they don't have permission to do so."
Your initial post is unclear. Are these your images that they are giving away or images that were created by them or shot for them? More importantly, what school is it, Frank? While they may allow downloads, the use may still be restrictive. It would be interesting to see their TOS and the rights they are conveying. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 4:46 PM on 12.21.10 |
->> Good points Clark, but I think a MAJOR caveat to this is that when you post images for all the world to see and don't explicitly limit what the world can do with them, then you can run in to an instance where and image might find it's way in to a commercial enterprise, and thus jeopardize the player's eligibility.
I mean maybe the Facebook page states that these are for home display purposes only. Does that mean people will abide by it? Not necessarily. But it does somewhat indemnify the school. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 4:55 PM on 12.21.10 |
->> Thomas that was in essence a point that I advised Frank to bring up with the school. While the school's and or Facebook's TOS may ban commercial use of the photo, the last thing that any school would want is to have to bench a key player while the NCAA sorted out a possible eligibility issue.
My advise to Frank, based on the email he sent, was to sit with the school and determine if the real intent is to put the photos out there full res or if this is something that they are doing because of a lack of understanding on their part. I'm willing to bet that at the end of the day the school was looking for a cool fan page and not looking to endanger one of their programs, dilute the value of the photos, and or cause extra work and worries for the IP rights holders.
This may call for nothing more than adding an additional service to the school(s) by providing them with the full res files that they need AND a separate folder of facebook files.
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 6:15 PM on 12.21.10 |
->> "I think a MAJOR caveat to this is that when you post images for all the world to see ... and thus jeopardize the player's eligibility."
If some business did use an image to market their product or services, the NCAA isn't going to immediately sideline the athlete. They will ask the school to do an investigation and present their findings which will be real easy. The compliance office will simply say the were not contacted by nor granted permission to the offending business. Student athletes in good standing know not to talk to business folks without first checking with the SID and/or compliance office so end of story as far as the NCAA.
The school will proceed after the business, likely to result in a simple cease and desist letter initially, to discontinue the use. Unless the business owner is stupid as a rock, pursuing an IP cases is usually not in their best interest from a PR stand points so s/he, the business owner, will slip away with a slap on the wrist, but at least enjoyed some benefit from the ad and use of the image.
Yes, certainly a risk putting the high res out there for any one to have access to, but then again the same business owner or graphic artist could have contacted the SID and received the image and did the same thing from a print or digital file.
What is interesting in this case whether or not FaceBook's TOS trump terms and conditions issued by the institution (if any are stated) once the files are uploaded. I'm still interested in seeing the terms and conditions for downloads. In essence, Facebook has been granted the right to distribute the images without any exposure.
This would not be such a big issue except the Facebook upload mechanism purposefully removes the IPTC info files uploaded to their server (or so it has the last time I uploaded and then copied the file back to my computer and looked in PhotoMechanic).
While it is logical to assume that the photos are made available with private viewing rights only, actual rights conveyed will not be readily available unless stated in Facebook's caption field or without any other written documentation. This definitely leads to some pretty loose interpretation of the right the downloader has assumed once s/he has the images on their computer. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 1:18 PM on 12.22.10 |
->> You own all of the content and information you post on Facebook, and you can control how it is shared through your privacy and application settings. In addition:
1. For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos ("IP content"), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook ("IP License"). This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it.
4. When you publish content or information using the "everyone" setting, it means that you are allowing everyone, including people off of Facebook, to access and use that information, and to associate it with you (i.e., your name and profile picture).
So whereas the school DOES have the commercial rights to the images is the school then giving THOSE rights to Facebook and granting to Facebook the right to transfer those rights to a third party? Sure looks like that door is open to me....
Absent a second contract between the school and Facebook, I'd say that ALL rights are granted and worse yet should a company like Google eventually buy Facebook those rights including the commercial rights will become part of the sale.
They state:
"everyone" setting, it means that you are allowing everyone, including people off of Facebook, to access and use that information
To me that means that in section #1 you grant to Facebook a blanket transferable license to the image and THEN in item 4 they are granting it to everyone if that is what your settings are set to....
Again there aren't any conditions or exclusions being thrown in other than what you set your privacy and app setting to. Lets assume that if the school is setting up a 'fan page' that the privacy settings are set to 'Everyone'. It would be one thing if the school DIDN'T have the rights to the images and could try to shield commercial use under the guise of not being able to convey what they don't own BUT if the athlete has granted commercial rights to the school AND the school has in turn agreed to a blanket TOS such as the one above it would look to me to be one hell of a HUGE gray pool to wade into.
I just don't know why any school would even consider risking it. Lo-res watermarked images that will endup in the pseudo public domain is bad enough. Putting the originals out there just screams ignorance of the risks.
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 5:53 AM on 12.23.10 |
->> Gang...come on, we can do better than this. Read the rules. They're easy to find. Don't need to call any friends who work for the NCAA, try to remember what so-and-so said to you a couple of years ago, or anything like that.
12.5.1.1.3 Distribution of Institutional Items through Commercial Outlets. A member institution may distribute noncommercial items that include names or pictures of student-athletes (items not for sale) at commercial establishments, provided the institution generally distributes such items to other commercial establishments in the community and the distribution of the items does not require the recipient to
make a purchase at the commercial establishment. (Adopted: 1/16/93, Revised: 5/21/08)
Lots more likely applicable regs here: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D111.pdf |
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