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How AP's photographer got 'the money shot'
Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Steve Russell, Photographer
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Toronto | ON | Canada | Posted: 10:27 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> Camilla Parker-Bowles, Prince Charles and Money Shot were not three things I like to see in a story!
But, an interesting read and a lesson learned about following your gut (and an angry mob)! |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 11:38 AM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> I do think it's ironic they're calling it "the money shot" because Dunham likely isn't going to be making much money off the image other than his AP salary. Were he a freelancer with good marketing skills and/or the right agent, he'd be making thousands off this image. |
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Angus Mordant, Student/Intern
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Sydney | NSW Australia | Australia | Posted: 11:59 AM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> I was at the same protest and followed the same group for a very short while, they began to die down so i left back to the main protest... Sh*t happens! |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 6:47 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> "Camilla Parker-Bowles, Prince Charles and Money Shot were not three things I like to see in a story"
Gee thanks. Now I have THAT ugly mental image to deal with... |
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Angus Mordant, Student/Intern
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Sydney | NSW Australia | Australia | Posted: 10:33 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> Whilst most certainly not "The money shot" i have added some of my images from the protest (And Pic number 10 from an earlier student protest in November)
Well done to Matt Dunham for pursuing the group all the way and getting such a killer shot!! |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 11:21 AM on 12.11.10 |
| ->> Colburn: Now THAT IS FUNNY. |
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Robert Caplin, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:05 PM on 12.11.10 |
->> nothing says classy photojournalist like an on-camera flash taken through someone's car window to get the shot.
i'll say it: crAP. |
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Peter Tarry, Photographer
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croydon | Surrey | England | Posted: 6:45 AM on 12.12.10 |
| ->> robert how would you have taken that shot ? it was a riot on a dark december night ! i dont understand why you are criticizing a photographer for doing his job and getting the picture that the worlds media wanted to see, i agree it was not perfect but then again many pictures are flawed . |
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Eric Seals, Photographer
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Detroit | MI | United States | Posted: 10:14 AM on 12.12.10 |
->> Thanks Jim for posting the link, I was curious about the whole scene.
I totally agree with you Peter! I don't understand the criticism of this image.
Then again after re-reading Robert's post perhaps he's just joking and using the word crap as a play on words since the AP in crap is in all caps? Pretty shitty (that's how you do a play on words) sense of humor if that's the case!
:-)
Eric |
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Eric Seals, Photographer
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Detroit | MI | United States | Posted: 10:21 AM on 12.12.10 |
->> Here's why......from the story quoting AP photographer Matt Dunham;
"I had previously turned off my flash because it had attracted protesters who had tried to wrench my camera away. But the light was so bad by this time it would have been impossible to get a shot inside a car without it." |
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 11:59 AM on 12.12.10 |
| ->> Is that picture even in focus? How many times do we say on this site, a crappy photo of somebody famous is still a crappy photo. To me this is just a crappy picture of two famous people. It does not tell a story, it could have been a paparazzi photo outside a nightclub in LA. You canny tell there is a protest going on. I'm with Robert. Crap. Just famous people. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Assistant
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:13 PM on 12.12.10 |
->> It is a crappy photo, no doubt about that. If I had that picture in my portfolio of Jon and Jane Smith of Podunk, Texas. Nobody would be commenting or congratulating me on anything.
But in this case, because they *are* famous people, it is definitely a newsworthy shot. And sometimes, newsworthy is more important than good. Sometimes.
I'd rather have both a good AND a newsworthy shot. But on any given day, I'd take either. |
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Matthew Hinton, Photographer, Assistant
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New Orleans | LA | USA | Posted: 12:34 PM on 12.12.10 |
->> From the story
"It is one of those shots that will surely be republished endlessly in future. It will have historical value because it catches a moment in the political life of Britain and the life of the heir to the throne."
It illustrates a lot things about a class society, like the shock of the upper class to the lower class, how even the higher class can't escape or ignore the economic troubles of the time.
It's news value is beyond question and it has emotion. It's more about the subject matter than a photographer's "style"
The quality of the image is not the great but it wasn't the best situation to make a great image. We can't always have pretty sunsets or golden hour light to make photos.
News value is what photojournalism about, it's not about winning photo contests. |
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Peter Tarry, Photographer
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croydon | Surrey | England | Posted: 12:58 PM on 12.12.10 |
| ->> any day that photography wins is a good day ! matt got the picture ! its huge over here and the story is still rumbling on and that picture is being used everywhere and will continue to do so ,he got what no one else got,result ! |
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Angus Mordant, Student/Intern
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Sydney | NSW Australia | Australia | Posted: 1:25 PM on 12.12.10 |
| ->> Well there was a Getty photog there whose image was front page of a couple of papers but the picture was not nearly as good. Dont have the paper handy but i'll try find it later. |
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Harrison Shull, Photographer
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Fayetteville, WV | Asheville, NC | | Posted: 3:36 PM on 12.12.10 |
->> "he got what no one else got,result !"
Sure but the AP contract ensures that while Matt got pic, the AP and not Matt is likely reaping the rewards.
The only difference between this and the paparazzi is that those cutthroat bastards can get 6 figures for a "juicy" image and they leverage this "uniqueness" agaisnt all the smarmy mags that publish pix of that ilk.
Nice heads up play to follow the right mob and get a pic of any type (blurry & onboard flash), but just a shame to see the rewards go to AP and not the photog. |
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
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Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 3:50 PM on 12.12.10 |
->> Harrison,
What contract? You think everyone that works for AP is a freelancer. Guess what, he's staff. There are trade offs for losing your copyright like pension, 401k, health care, not having to buy your own equipment and car allowance. That's a hell of a lot more than I can say of a lot of the other so-called "wire services" out there. |
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Chip Litherland, Photographer
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Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 4:46 PM on 12.12.10 |
->> Just fyi, here's a link to the full-frame image...might answer your question as to why it looks soft. Everything looks soft when you crop to 10% of the frame.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/12/10/world/10london-3.html
Sometimes newsworthiness and content overrides all technicals. |
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
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Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 3:59 AM on 12.13.10 |
->> Also, if Matt Dunham were a freelancer, he would be getting PAID somewhere around $250 or more for the assignment and possibly get a share of the profits as many of the AP's freelancers and contributors do. Again, a lot more than I can say for some of the other "wire services."
And Craig, this http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/12/10/world/10london-3.html illustrates how Matt wasn't just shooting a "crappy picture of two famous people," but trying to tell the story by showing more of the scene like the good journalist (not a paparazzo) that he is. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 9:53 AM on 12.13.10 |
| ->> Chip -- thanks for posting that. The dude with the mustache, scarf and large beverage totally makes the frame. It's like the Royal Family version of the cigar guy!! |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 10:06 AM on 12.13.10 |
| ->> Mark T. - I'm pretty sure AP's most recent freelancer contract is an all-rights grabbing POS (unless they've changed something since I stopped freelancing for them a few years back). It's why a lot of shooters won't freelance for them anymore. |
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 11:59 AM on 12.13.10 |
->> Chip/Mark,
thanks for posting the link with the full image. When I first saw the photo, my first thought was, this picture says nothing of the scene, the car they are in, , etc, etc. The full frame does a MUCH better job of giving you an idea of the surroundings, and I think is a much better photo...why was is cropped so hard core?? |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:57 PM on 12.13.10 |
| ->> I personally think it's a pretty damn fine shot considering the times I've had to try and shoot through a car window and it is almost 99% of the time it's a case of epic FAIL. and on a side note, mark makes a fine point about the AP and staffers. I wouldn't cry too hard for Mr. Dunham, AP staffers (at least the ones I know) make far more money than that of us poor saps at "regular" newspapers. from what I understand they get full coverage of health benefits (with NO expense to themselves, a huge car allowance, OVERTIME (we haven't been able to turn in overtime in three years) tons of gear and the list continues. nope, you won't see my crying over the fact that Mr. Dunham won't reap the extra fruit of his labor. probably the funniest thing though was the scribbler in the article saying he would reap in lots of rewards for the shot. obviously, the poor scribe hasn't the faintest clue how photoj contests work. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 12:57 PM on 12.13.10 |
| ->> OK...he did a nice job and got the defining image of the "event". But let us not forget why the students were protesting: Thier tuition is getting tripled!! Chuck and is bride are figure heads, and he needs to see what the crown can do for their university subjects. Nice photo of a society sinking even further. |
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Chip Litherland, Photographer
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Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 1:02 PM on 12.13.10 |
->> Craig,
It was cropped because most media and tabloids could care less about the context. They care more about the shocked faces of the Royal family in distress. The cropped version is easier to write headlines for, can be printed/thumbnailed smaller with the same punch, and avoids the whole pesky thing of forcing readers to look and think.
Think of it as a visual straw to suck the content down faster.
To be fair, neither are really strong photographs technically, but they are strong on exclusivity and celebrity and the AP is the only wire to have it.
Kudos to the photog for getting it. That is all that matters. f/8 + be there. I can think of several Pulitzer winners which are absolute shambles of anything resembling composition.
Chip |
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
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Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 5:15 PM on 12.13.10 |
->> Bradley,
Where did I say otherwise? Or were you just venting? However, the AP's contributors do retain their copyright, but we're getting off topic here. |
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
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Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 5:16 PM on 12.13.10 |
| ->> Sorry, that should be Bradly. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 5:38 PM on 12.13.10 |
->> Matt - you said,
"...if Matt Dunham were a freelancer, he would be getting PAID somewhere around $250 or more for the assignment and possibly get a share of the profits as many of the AP's freelancers and contributors do."
True for the first part of your statement, but certainly not the latter part. When I said AP's freelance contract was an "all-rights grabbing POS" it meant that the freelancer does get paid for assignments but AP gets full copyright to the photos.
I don't know if they've changed their contract in the last couple of years, but I do know that I politely asked the AP bureau chief in my area not to call me for freelance assignments until the AP changed their freelance policies regarding copyright, and I haven't heard back from her since. |
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
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Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 5:55 PM on 12.13.10 |
->> Bradly,
I thought my statement was pretty clear, but I'll try again. The AP currently shares revenue with some of it's freelancers. Contributors that are on assignment for someone else already hold their copyright, retain it and let the AP post and sell them and then the revenue is shared. The AP has a lot of those now. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 6:13 PM on 12.13.10 |
| ->> Mark - I never said anything about contributors. Also, I'm curious to know why AP is sharing revenue with "some" and not all of their freelancers, if, in fact, that is the case. |
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
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Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 6:52 PM on 12.13.10 |
->> Jesus. Am I not speaking English here?
I said. "...if Matt Dunham were a freelancer, he would be getting PAID somewhere around $250 or more for the assignment and possibly get a share of the profits as many of the AP's freelancers and contributors do."
Bradly said, "True for the first part of your statement, but certainly not the latter part."
What was incorrect about any part my statement? You keep making soapbox statements about rights grabs. I never said anything about that, but you keep bringing it up in response to what I've said.
If you have any other questions about this, I suggest you contact them. I'm sure they're dying to hear from you.
For what it's worth, I'm not advocating one way or another. There was no contract when I was freelancing 13 years ago, so I never signed one and frankly don't know a great deal about it. I'm just an employee.
FWIW, all contracts are negotiable if you have a lot of talent or something someone really wants.
I am kind of curious, though. What agency are you or anyone else here currently working for if any and what are their terms? I'd be curious to see a comparison between, AP, Reuters, AFP, Getty and the others like US Presswire and Icon. We should probably start a new thread for that one, but it would be interesting to see.
I'm sorry for trying to correct the misinformation out there. You can go back to believing what you want to believe now. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 9:58 PM on 12.13.10 |
->> Bradly- I think that the reason you haven't heard back from them had more to do with your approach (reproach?) than lack of compliance with your request. I know four people who have four different contracts with AP ranging from full, partial, dual and no ownership. They come paired with proportional day rates ranging from salary, full day, partial day and no day rates. I would go in to the legal nuances of each but if you aren't at least familiar with the broad scope of what's been going on for years then it's going to be completely over your head and not make any sense, so I'll save my time.
Robert- Ironically you also can't spell CRap without your initials.
Harrison- Such are the perils of being a staff photographer for any paper, magazine, agency, team, corporation, etc., etc.. You can't poo-poo the ownership rights of a staffers photo when so many photographers on this site are struggling to get on staff or just hang on to their staff jobs.
Craig and Nick- Newsworthiness outranks technical merit from time to time and this is one of those times. It's not so much that it's a through-the-window shot of the Royal Family, it's that it's a shot of the royal family coming under attack from their countrymen. Sure they don't actually do anything like they did in the 1700's but that's probably the last time they also were so close to being lynched. Leave the protestors but substitute Camilla and Charles with Michelle and Barack and swap out their car with The Beast... If that doesn't make the photo interesting to you then I don't know what to tell you. |
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Sean D. Elliot, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Norwich | CT | USA | Posted: 11:16 PM on 12.13.10 |
| ->> see, if you wait long enough Witte will eventually lay down the law and get everyone straightened-out ;-) |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 12.14.10 |
->> Thomas - Actually, I have never approached the AP for anything. Rather, they approached me when other freelancers, colleagues of mine whom I respect, wouldn't sign the rights-grabbing contract offered to them, either. When I respectfully said I'd be happy to take the assignment(s) if we could negotiate a contract that would be amiable to both parties, I was politely told "thanks but no thanks" and they moved down the list until they found someone who would sign their contract.
Regardless, I've tagged your post as "Informative" anyway because now I know you're willing to comment on circumstances of which you clearly know nothing about. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 12:29 AM on 12.14.10 |
| ->> Clearly. |
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