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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Writing a Paper About Photographers
Robby Gallagher, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Brookings | SD | USA | Posted: 11:12 PM on 12.09.10 |
->> Hey everyone!
I am writing a paper for my Media Administration and Management class on how photographers have to become managers. I have a few interviews lined up, but what I really need is web source. I need a couple articles or so.. Do you know of anything? Where I can find what I am looking for? Please let me know. Thanks! |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Robby Gallagher, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Brookings | SD | USA | Posted: 11:41 PM on 12.09.10 |
| ->> Ouch. Once again, I guess this was the wrong place to ask questions. Thanks everyone. |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 12:13 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2445
This interesting article is from this months newsletter. I think it would be appropriate for your project. |
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Robby Gallagher, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Brookings | SD | USA | Posted: 12:19 AM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> Thanks Patrick. I appreciate the help. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:56 AM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> Geez Robbie, seriously....you have all the makings of a sitcom. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:57 AM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> ooops, robby. my bad |
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Robby Gallagher, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Brookings | SD | USA | Posted: 1:47 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> I just want to go ahead and say...
You all are professionals right?
This is an online resource for sports photographers right?
All I did was ask a very simple question and the first answer I received was ridiculous. I was just looking for a resource for my paper, something that I had been looking for for a while now. Trust me, I googled the same thing that Mark did. I took what he did as a little insulting. Do I blow a things out of proportion sometimes? Yes. I wouldn't react the way I do, if the "Professionals" would act professional and be that resource that this site is said to have. Honestly, if you are going to post something just to be funny or to just flat out insult someone, go somewhere else. We all paid our dues here and some of us are trying to learn. So far, what I have learned from asking questions is...
1. Give up.
2. You are never going to be a professional sports photographer.
3. You have all the makings of a sitcom.
4. Hope you have a plan B or C.
5. You are reaping the rewards of joining this site. Most of these people commenting are photographers that would be speaking at photojournalism conferences.
That is just to name a few. Granted, yes, I do learn a little here and there and I get a few photographers that actually answer my questions. The one thing I have not learned on this site... is professionalism. I am not a professional. Not yet. However, when I do get there, at least I will know how not to act. I hope when those photographers who treat others so ridiculously poor on this site, get asked to speak at a photojournalism conference, they don't mention how they treat up and coming photographers. I can't imagine those some of the photographers being mentors to others. Do you treat the photographers you work with, the same way you treat some of the photographers on this page? I wouldn't think so.
I thought this site would be a great place to learn. However, I have learned on multiple occasions, that the photographers on this site aren't here to help. I realize that my photos are not top of the line, I realize I don't have all the gear that a "professional" photographer has, I realize that I have a long way to go in my development as a photographer, tell me something that I don't know. I got an idea, help me to better myself as a photographer. Am I saying you have to, because you are part of this site. Not at all. But if you are going to tear me apart, or try to discourage me every time I ask a question, why not fix the problem instead of causing more?
All I am asking is that if your post isn't seriously informative, if you are just posting to try to be funny but you know it is going to set off a member, just don't do it. There was a time when I asked for a portfolio critique, that was your time to tell me how bad my work was/is. Many of you give this site a bad name.
I had a guy ask me to sponsor him for this website, because he wanted to better his work. I told him not to waste his time. Take some time to read through this post again. I am not saying that I am a better photographer than anyone, I am not saying that you don't take great images, I am just asking that you take a look at your professionalism.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=37247 |
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Brad Mangin, Photographer
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Pleasanton | CA | USA | Posted: 2:11 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> Robby- please don't paint everyone on this site with such a broad brush. There are thousands of people here ranging all over the map in photo skills, people skills, etc.
There are some GREAT people on this site who might not weigh in on some of your threads because they are too busy, etc.
I am not familiar with where you live in South Dakota, but I imagine there are not many local pros in your area to learn from. That is very unfortunate for you as the best way to learn for me back in the day- and for many others- was from some wonderful pros in my area who mentored me and taught me the ropes. You need to get out and travel around to find someone in your area to help you in person.
It is really tough to learn everything about this profession from a website. Unfortunately you have become frustrated with some of the responses to your posts. I am sorry about that, but please realize this is NOTHING compared to how nutty things will become for you when you learn more about the business and advance as a photographer. It is very ugly out there right now. The best advice I can give you is to develop a VERY thick skin and learn to take criticism to both your words and pictures.
Best of luck. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:11 AM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> robby, I guess I'll take the bait. you have kind of asked for this. you have purported to BE a professional. you have BEEN selling yourself as a professional. this is a tough business and YES most of us DO treat each other the way that apparently makes you cringe. this site is a GREAT place to learn. I've been doing this for 37 years and I learn something new EVERY single week from this site. just because folks on this site aren't blowing smoke up your ass and telling you your work is "great" "stupendous" and "has something special" doesn't mean SS is a bad site. to be honest, I hate to be so brutal but your posts the past eight months border on comical. good god, you have been selling yourself as a professional for the last six months on this site and in you comment above you say "I am not a professional". WTF? which is it? do the people in your area that you sell your services to know YOU don't consider yourself a professional? I guess I just get tired of hearing GWC's (sorry man but I totally am putting you in that category) bitch and moan when they are called out and PROFESSIONAL's tell them the truth. I know you LOVE taking photos, so does my neighbor and his kid. but robby, you need to face cold hard facts. you're a hobbyist. you haven't received the adoration you want so now you wanna bitch slap sportsshooter members about their professionalism. dude, that is the wrong tree to be barking up. you seriously need to re-evaluate your career course. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 2:23 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> Robby,
I've worked in almost every form of media - radio, television, photojournalism. What I've learned from that experience is media people have some of the most fun and interesting personalities in the world. But media people also tend to have a good dose of gallows humor, more than a slight bit of cynicism, and more times than not are really good people.
But you have to learn to work with the personalities if you are going to benefit from the experience. With every rant about how this profession sucks and it's a road to nowhere, you have to keep in mind that it's coming from someone who continues to get up every day, by choice, and work in it. For every bashing about how you're asking stupid questions, there are nuggets of really good, solid advice that you should hear.
You have to have a thick skin and the willingness to accept that there will be zingers tossed your way, that sometimes people working in media will seem like downers, and sometimes it will be discouraging. Yet through it all you can learn a great, great deal if you stick it out and listen. |
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Robby Gallagher, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Brookings | SD | USA | Posted: 3:13 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> Chuck- I haven't played myself off as a professional. I say I am not a professional due to the fact that I am not a career photographer. Yes, one day I will be, but that day hasn't come yet. So if you want to call me a guy with a camera, you have every right to, just like you have every right to call me a hobbyist. I understand that photography has been a major part of your life, but it is a major part of mine as well. I am not looking for someone to tell me my work is amazing by any means, I am up for a critique of my work at any time. I find myself critique others work all the time. Not because mine is better, but I too notice things that should be fixed. For example, there are 3 images on your SS page in which the horizons are slanted. It isn't a big deal, and I don't plan to rub it in your face. For all I know you just threw the images on your site to have images. I don't know for sure if you put a ton of work into them. I am just trying to tell you that I noticed flaws of others, not because I am better, but because a flaw is a flaw. I am not going to sit here an get angry with you. I could come back with a more vile post than yours, but it isn't worth it. Things got blown out of proportion and I would prefer, if we keep future criticism of myself, my future, and my portfolio between us through e-mail or something to that effect.
Brad- I am not trying to label everyone on this site as a jerk or unprofessional. I may have over exaggerated a bit.
David- I am benefiting from the experience. Like you said, I do pull some stuff off this site that has been useful. Sometimes it is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Not every time, but sometimes.
Thank you all for the advice. It is much appreciated. |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 7:29 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> Robby, I'm not on here as much as guys like Chuck are, so am in a vacuum, but I'd start by browsing Poynter's website, and you might try shooting an email to guys like Kenny Irby or a Director of Photography at a newspaper you admire. They may have seen articles that might help you out.
While I can see the frustrations at the opening posts (gotta remember that Google bit!), lighten up my man, skip the diatribe. Responding with a "Dang, harsh guys! :) Seriously though, any articles you've seen would be a big help!" labels you as one of the fellas, and not, well, something else. |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 7:30 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> Robby, I'd start by browsing Poynter's website, and you might try shooting an email to guys like Kenny Irby or a Director of Photography at a newspaper you admire. They may have seen articles that might help you out.
While I can see the frustrations at the opening posts (gotta remember that Google bit!), lighten up my man, skip the diatribe. Responding with a "Dang, harsh guys! :) Seriously though, any articles you've seen would be a big help!" labels you as one of the fellas, and not, well, something else. |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 7:30 AM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> . |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 7:42 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> Robby -
I gave you the same answer I would give my own straight-A high school senior daughter. PhD candidate step-daughter, co-worker, colleague or subordinate - if they were to ask "a simple question" that is completely devoid of any indication that they had exerted one iota of effort to ascertain the answer themselves before asking.
That is exactly what you did.
Giving such an answer doesn't mean I think any of them - or you - are stupid, it means I think you haven't availed yourself of the obvious tools at your disposal.
You didn't ask a conceptual question nor did you ask us to provide qualitative guidance (e.g. who is your favorite/most trusted, etc. source). You asked "Where can I find what I'm looking for?".
Google.
Simple question, simple answer.
The problem, as it has been with other of your questions, is that your question or the preface to the question is incomplete. Had you indicated that you had checked x,y and z sources and were still struggling to find appropriate materials, or something similar, I would have simply replied with links to Harrington and Heller. But you didn't. As with your 50D rant, you failed to include pertinent information in your original post. That's important to getting a meaningful response. It's important here and it will be extremely important in your career. Being able to efficiently and effectively communicate a thought or request - particularly in an environment such as this where there is no benefit of body language or immediate feedback - is critical to obtaining desired results.
Go back and read your original question. Can you see what I am saying?
Did I provide you with a smart-ass response. Damn skippy I did. I meant to. If you were standing in front of me and asked the same question, you would have received basically the same response - go look it up yourself first, and if you still can't find it, then come to me for help. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 8:11 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> 1. Give up.
2. You are never going to be a professional XXXXXXX photographer.
3. You have all the makings of a sitcom. **Not those exact words but close**
4. Hope you have a plan B or C.
5. You are reaping the rewards of *** coming to this school***. Most of these people commenting are photographers that would be speaking at photojournalism conferences.
Wow all that for $25!!! It cost me (and my parents) 40 grand to have those same lessons foisted on me every week for several years.... BTW that was 40 grand when either a pack of cigarettes or a gallon of gasoline could be bought for under a buck.... |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 8:24 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> OK guys, I'm going to take Robby's side in this one.
Sure, you can Google (or Bing, or whatever search engine you want) for this stuff but that doesn't always return great results. We all know that with the various things search engines look for and people carefully monitoring their SEO that the results you seek may not be high up, and how many of us go past the first or second page of hits?
Robby's status on this site lists him as a student, so he is learning. He asked a question of professionals for classwork and we should respond in kind. How many of us in college asked questions that 20+ year pros should have responded flippantly, but they didn't? They patiently answered our questions, showed us a new trick or two and maybe gave us a couple rolls of that fancy new high-speed film we didn't have at a night game.
Web searches return all kinds of results and maybe someone knows a good site, like Robert's mention of Poynter, that can help him out. Also Trent's story in this month's newsletter. Articles like that are helpful. And a web search may not turn up that article from News Photographer a year or so ago that someone happens to have a copy around they can send to the questioner.
There are dumb questions on this forum all the time that could be answered with a Google search, but we provide regular answers. How many shooters ask to find a camera store or rental place in a certain town when a Google search could provide answers? Do we belittle him/her? No. People jump on with responses for their favorite camera shop and salesperson because they want to help out a fellow photographer-- and maybe help out a trusted salesperson with a reference for another sale and commission.
How many people ask questions about custom functions that could be answered with a look at the camera manual and 5 minutes of tinkering and learning on your own? We don't say "read your manual, stupid." We answer with "I like using setting 2 on that one because I feel it gives me faster AF response." Something someone could learn by themselves by experimenting like we did to learn it for the answer we give. But we answer and don't call them out.
And sometimes, folks, we just ask a question that when we hear the answer we say "duh, why didn't I think of that?" but maybe it just doesn't cross our mind and we need a bump.
A bump, not a slap in the face. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 9:34 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> I'm going to agree with George here.
If someone asks a question and you have nothing positive to say, remain QUIET.
I can't tell you how many times I google something and can't find what I am looking for. I also can't tell you how many times I will be on the phone with a photo friend and we both google the same thing, yet get different results. There are also times when I am on my Blackberry and googling is either too slow or the type is too damn small no matter how many times I zoom in. It is faster and more effective if I post a question here-especially if I am out and need something fast. There are also other things to take into consideration when people ask questions that you may think the answer can be found-stress takes a huge toll on people's minds and one can easily find the answer hard to find.
Case in point-a few weeks ago I couldn't remember why my D3's mirror wouldn't lock up for cleaning. I have done this before but forgot, and once before it didn't work. I was out on a shoot, no manual, so I posted the question here and in less than a minute I had the answer (the battery has to be fully charged...thanks Max for the fast answer).
There are so many members here who are scared to death to post anything here because of the responses they may get.
I could care less how long someone has been shooting. I was told early on and I will always feel this way-there are no dumb questions.
DLR |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 10:15 AM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> Deb, I have a 16 year old son who may be the exception to that last point you made! Some of the things he's asked if he can do....wow, just wow. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 10:30 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> If someone asks a question and you have nothing positive to say, remain QUIET.
I absolutely disagree with this assertion. I've learned a lot of really solid life lessons from grumpy guys in barber shops, many of these lessons starting with something along the lines of "Son, you think you know about (subject)? You don't know (expletive) about (subject). Let me tell you about (subject)...". You listen, you learn.
If you ask someone a question, it's not the responsibility of the person being asked to deliver it to you on a platter. You're asking them for information. Some are natural born teachers, some are grumps, some are candy-coaters. All have knowledge. All have things to offer, packaged in different ways. You take what comes, you listen and learn, and you show respect - even if there's not much coming the other way. You're the one asking them the question, and they're giving you their time for free. That simple act requires at least a modicum of respect, even if they're obnoxious and insulting in their response. At the very least say "thank you", and slowly back away.
If you do this you can learn a hell of a lot about the world, in all sorts of situations, in all walks of life.
If that doesn't work for you...stick with Google. It's nice and pretty. :-) |
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Ethan Magoc, Student/Intern
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Erie | PA | United States | Posted: 10:34 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> http://www.amazon.com/Best-Business-Practices-Photographers-Harrington/dp/1...
/same author/
http://rising.blackstar.com/in-both-the-craft-and-business-of-photography-p...
http://www.asmp.org/strictlybusiness/
http://www.newmediaphotographer.com/2010/12/where-is-the-business-of-photog.../
http://blog.photoshelter.com/2010/04/the-mix-the-marketing-strategies-of-su...
http://blog.photoshelter.com/2010/09/8-best-business-practices-for-event-ph...
http://blog.photoshelter.com/mt-search.cgi?search=%22My+Nose%2C+Your+Business.%22&IncludeBlogs=4&x=0&y=0
Should be enough to get you going, unless I'm totally missing your question. Managers? Baseball managers? Business managers, I assume? Always good to provide clarity when asking for help.
Just a tip from a fellow student -- it was best to not lash out so quickly with "Ouch. Once again, I guess this was the wrong place to ask questions. Thanks everyone." Just seems to others as if you're super immature, mate. Don't spread thanks/appreciation if you don't mean them. Makes you look insincere and, thus, unprofessional.
I think Chuck keeps referring to the fact you have yourself listed FIRST as a "professional photographer" on your member page. Not necessarily your fault, as it's an automated feature of this site to help SEO. BUT you may want to remove that until after you graduate—strictly roll with the "student/intern" tag for the time being. That's who we are right now, and unless we're clearing $1k/week (not likely in the current market, anyway) on photo gigs, it's best not to pretend otherwise. You can find it under "Your account information" in your member area.
And FYI, I was the one to mark your post where you decided to critique Chuck's work as inappropriate. Didn't quite see how that fit, and (in my opinion) it just looked petty. And I know he hasn't had a chance to respond yet, but he quite possibly had reason for tilting his horizons. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 10:52 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> robby-
i've got to tell you, just the title of the thread and your name as the poster caused a whole mouthful of quality dunkin donuts coffee to travel from the warm confines of my mouth, through my nasal cavity, and onto my notebook screen. why? because i was anticipating what liddy might have already written. you see, chuck is not here to offer useful professional advice to students. he is here to entertain us. it's best to dismiss him as the cranky old man he admits to being.
that said, he's actually a pretty good dude. i'd bet your dirty camera that if you sent him a personal email asking the same exact question, he'd google your query for you. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 1:38 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> Robby,
Hopefully, you and others will take two important lessons from this thread.
First, take Brad's advice and find a local mentor or two. The one on one, face to face contact will be invaluable to your growth as photographer. Find someone who's work you want emulate, who is very successful and more crotchety than Mr. Liddy, who compared to the mentor I found when I was your age is a big, well-meaning wuss :-) Be persistent and tenacious in building a relationship with him or her. You'll know you have found the right person if they come right out and say your stuff sucks. If you are getting candy-coated, ego boosting reviews, move on.
My favorite mentor was a local studio owner and pj who bought his photo supplies from the camera store I worked at. No one wanted to wait on him because of his gruff, seemingly abrasive demeanor so whenever he came everybody would slip to the back or hang on to the customer they were waiting on just a little longer at the register until I could wait on him.
After seeing some of his work and learning about his experience, I made up my mind to ask him to critique my port. I bought a nice 11x14 book that week and printed 25 of my best news and portrait images. His first critique was brutal, full of what were you thinking, off-color barbs and is this the best you could do? A few weeks later I redid my port. Basically, the same ass-whopping but this time with a few pointers at the end. His critiques were always nit-picky, always included a slap to the back of the head much like Agent Gibbs does to DiNuzzo on NCIS and grew harsher. Just when I thought I was getting something right he'd find something else wrong. It took about a year for my mentor, and I love the man to this day, to finally utter the words, "Nice photo, Brooks." The words came unexpectedly and were the sweetest three I can remember from my early years.
The second, is learn to communicate better and more professionally, which Mr. Peters ever so gently, with a touch of humor tried to explain in his second post. I would assume you took as a personal attack when in fact it is probably one of the most important things you can learn here. Whether it be face to face, email or posting on a forum how you communicate and how much information you communicate will directly affect the quality of the answers you will received. Put a little more thought and effort into your posts. Remember that most of the readers don't know YOU or your experience, so you need to preface your questions with some background information.
Third and probably one of the most important one you will need to carry the rest of your life is 'RESPECT IS EARNED' and how you communicate with others in the SS community, with industry professionals and your future clients will determine the level of success you can expect in the future. If you want others to respect you as photographer, as a professional, you need to EARN that respect.
Responding to posts with "...Ouch. Once again, I guess this was the wrong place to ask questions." or "I too notice things that should be fixed. For example, there are 3 images on your SS page"... (sidebar - the correct way to describe 'slanted' in this industry is with the word 'tilted', BTW) as well as some of those in you camera cleaning post, simply will not earn you the respect as a professional. You wrote, "...when I do get there, at least I will know how not to act. I hope when those photographers who treat others so ridiculously poor on this site.." yet you did the very thing you said you wouldn't do in the following post lashing out at Mr. Liddy.
In closing, if you want the respect of the members of this community and to be treated as a professional, stop reacting and show a tiny bit of respect to other, as well as yourself by listening, communicating better, learning and thinking before you type. If you want to be treated like a professional, lead the way by acting like one. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 1:41 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> Debra wrote: "If someone asks a question and you have nothing positive to say, remain QUIET."
Likewise, if someone answers a question and you have nothing positive to say, remain QUIET ;-) |
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Eric Seals, Photographer
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Detroit | MI | United States | Posted: 2:02 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> Well said Clark!! Especially your 2nd and 3rd point.
Eric |
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Rod Oracheski, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Wainwright | AB | Canada | Posted: 2:31 PM on 12.10.10 |
| ->> It's unfortunate, but most of the time the people most likely to want to respond are the least likely to want to help. |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 3:28 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> Somewhere in the middle of all of this is a little bit on enlightenment. I concur that the way this whole thread started was, well, lacking. There are certainly things Robby G (which, BTW, you have to drop, it just screams Ali G) could have said to get a better response.
The difference between "do you know of anything" and "I have Googled myself to death, but still can't find an impactful article" is pretty big. The latter would have probably gotten a much more favorable response, especially for a student.
In the end, the ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer theory came into play.
Robby, no one is going to hand you anything in life if your approach looks lazy. The question the way you posted it looked lazy and you were met with an anvil. If you really want to know something, you need to seek out that wisdom as if finding the answer is the most important thing in your world. Ah, that last sentence was weak, waiting for my mind to catch up - passionate, that is the word I was waiting for. You need to let everyone see your passion.
And...you better develop some thicker skin. Professionals, as you would call them, speak their mind, as they should. A professional will absolutely murder you for taking a lazy photo, but will praise you just as much for making a stunning image. You better get used to that.
Finally, before you start critiquing the work of others, take a hard look at your own work. We all have areas of deficiency in our work, but openly bashing an established professional just because he hurt your feelings is far from professional behavior.
You want to try this again? How about asking the question you really meant to ask it the first time? It might be a good exercise and, you can actually say you learned something from SS? |
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Derek Montgomery, Photographer
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 4:31 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> What Brad said... well put Brad!
Plus, what the heck, I think we should just take Robby out back and beat the shit out of him. How DARE he ask a question before doing 15 minutes of research on Google, archives on this board, and doing careful introspection about his ability to withstand being ridiculed and castigated should his question be deemed not worthy. Yet another reason why 95% of the members of SS do not participate on this board.
One thing I always start with in my workshops is "There is no such thing as a dumb question". Every single one of us on this board at one time or another has displayed immaturity, lack of judgment, lack of experience and been a pain in the ass to others in the pursuit of this profession; indeed, I am at the front of the line in that regard, but little by little I learned, and now I know the people I respect in this business and those for whom I wouldn't give a plugged nickel, all based on how they treated me when I was less experienced.
True class comes from those who can recognize these traits in others for what they are, have empathy, and treat them with respect and dignity. Robby is OBVIOUSLY a young, inexperienced, student intern who is at least trying to be better. How does that not deserve your respect?
What's the one thing that is pounded into everyone's head here; "Be Careful What You Say Because This Is Industry Is A Small World; Your Reputation Follows You" Can this not also be true for the assholes who respond to others PUBLICLY with derision and ridicule? If someone truly steps on their dick here, then send them a private email. Being rough on someone when critiqing their work is one thing; but PUBLICLY treating someone like crap for asking a freakin' question puts things in a totally different ballpark. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 6:52 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> Clark,
I will never keep quiet when someone answers a question in a rude way. Maybe people think it is a dumb question, maybe it wasn't worded correctly, maybe you know more than the person asking. WHY be rude to a fellow member, someone here wanting to learn.
How many members are there on SS, and how many members are there that once had a voice here that we never see again. Ever think why they don't post? Why they don't come here? Could it be that they are tired of the BS? |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 6:55 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> Robby, You might try contacting David Yarnold. He went from staff photographer at the San Jose Mercury news to some very senior editing positions at that paper. He is currently CEO of the National Audubon Society.
--Mark |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 7:47 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> Robby,
You had asked for web sources, but I have to point you in the direction of John Harrington's book "Best Business Practices for Photographers" Second Edition. http://tinyurl.com/2fflqaz This is an incredible book on what photographers must do as managers to effectively run a business. I don't know him personally, but I understand he's very receptive to guys like yourself asking questions, especially in pursuit of a degree. Knock on his (virtual) door and see what he will do for an interview. At the very least you should read his book for REAL insight into what is required to run a photography business.
Also, try researching "copyright for photographers". There are very important issues surrounding protecting your work that is unique to those of us in creative businesses.
Photographers are as different as anything else, and with the economy, many have left the industry; a friend of mine up in Reno threw in the towel on a 27 year wedding business. My business, however, is increasing every year, and I am very positive about 2011. So it's just all in who you talk to. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 10:53 PM on 12.10.10 |
->> the NPPA has a mentor program that could be very useful. you simply search for people in your area who have signed up to mentor students or new professionals. they have a little database on their website. i met scott strazzante here in chicago this way. he's a tribune guy who was super-cool about offering a few hours of shadow time, just because i asked.
you might be able to find someone like this too. nppa.org |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 12:26 AM on 12.11.10 |
->> Hey Debra,
I apologize if there was a misunderstanding in my last post that started with a quote from you. Looking back at it I can see how it could be misinterpreted. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding as it was a play on your words which I feel is just as important as the sound advice that statement made which was quoted. I'm sorry if I offended you. Truly, it was unintentional and not directly intended toward you. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:45 AM on 12.11.10 |
| ->> Respectfully, just because you might not agree with someone doesn't mean it's BS. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you flag them inappropriate. I know I'm likely to get some people riled up by saying this but most of us who are in the news business have a hard edge. we have somewhat skewed and irreverent sense of humor. it doesn't mean we're bad people. sometimes there ARE dumb questions. I've asked my share of stupid questions and probably will continue to ask stupid questions, it's human nature. I think if someone is planning and has their heart set to get into this end of the photo business (photojournalism) they should be prepared for a little rough treatment. to be honest, treating someone with "kid" gloves all the time in this day and age doesn't do them any favors. I can tell you right now I've seen the effects of a kid getting out of j-school and not having any "real life" experience in the news room. it wasn't pretty. I've seen reporters and photographers, adults mind you, end up crying when an editor reamed them. this business is not for the faint of heart. rude? you betcha. bad? not necessarily. robby and I exchanged some emails...I won't go into what was said, I hope it came out in a positive light for him. but it's really sad that many times on this message board when people actually are trying to help someone by being TRUTHFUL with them there is a great gnashing of teeth and outpouring of shock because sunshine wasn't blwn up their arse. that's just not how life works no matter what kind of rose colored glasses you might be wearing. I'm actually a "glass 3/4's full" kind of guy....but I'm goig to be brutally honest about some things....of course, now I expect to get an OT... |
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Jim Owens, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | usa | Posted: 10:16 AM on 12.11.10 |
->> Chuck, THAT was a good response.
Jim |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 1:58 PM on 12.11.10 |
->> You all are gonna think I'm totally crazy here, but as I read each and every post to this thread, I got randomly reminded of my favorite scenes from one of my favorite classic movies of all time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7oGGP0BWYE
[Good lord I love YouTube!!]
Robby:
What you need is the SportsShooter equivalent of "Sanctuary."
I mean, I think you asked a reasonable question, but given your past "encounters" on this message board, it's hard for a lot of folks to take you seriously, I guess.
Brad and several others offer some great advice. It's hard to have the kind of conversation I think you want to have on something like this message board; I think you'll find the signal-to-noise ratio to be too daunting.
Maybe you ought to work on developing some one-on-one, more mentor-like relationships with people.
Good luck with that paper.
- gerry - |
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David Dermer, Photographer
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Cortland | Oh | 44410 | Posted: 2:25 PM on 12.11.10 |
->> When you can stand on the sideline and speak to some photographers on the sidelines at NFL/NCAA/High School games and they are informative and respectful to you, not just telling you that you should give up and go home.
Or you can walk into a camera store and not exactly know what your wanting but can ask for help and they help you, not just telling you to leave.
But if you ask for any sort of help in the world on here well your going to be made the but of jokes and emailed by people who dont include their names telling you that all your shots suck.
Its always easy to sit in the stands and yell and complain about everything or everyone around you.
But if it was easy to take photos then everyone would have the best equpiment in the world and have easy acess to NFL sidelines every weekend.
If I have a question I ask it. I dont step on peoples toes because I never know if there will come a day where I will ask something of that person.
Untill next weeks message board post where we go into this same subject again. Have a great weekend! |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 3:17 PM on 12.11.10 |
->> Robby,
Take comfort in the fact that even with your GWC hobbyist skills and not even being a full-time photographer you are a Senior Member on this site and as such can sponsor other photographers. I have been a member of this site since 2004 and do not have Senior Member status. The upside is no one asks me to sponsor them. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 7:25 PM on 12.11.10 |
->> I've emailed Robby from time to time. Yes, he does post some questions and threads that some of us see as almost "puppy dog" like. He's just happy to be here, of that I'm sure.
In many ways, Robby is still a amateur - but he wants to BE a professional photographer so bad he can taste it. *IF* you send him a critique of his work, he'll respond and seems appreciative regardless of whether or not you offer criticism or praise. IF Robby is guilty of one thing, I think it's his expectation that hanging with this group will somehow make it automatically better. I think he feels there's a secret handshake and he hopes to learn it. Say what you want, he's certainly excited to be here - he has passion.
Robby, here's the secret handshake: HARD WORK. Use that passion, which you possess in considerable quantities, the fuel and drive the HARD WORK. Learn your craft. HARD WORK and passion are a good combination. You'll need both in large quantities.
No response from me would be complete without saying the following: You must take BUSINESS COURSES. I don't mean one or two either, you'll need to pretty much earn a minor. The job market you're going into is ugly and there are plenty of seasoned pros looking for jobs right now. IF you have no background or education in business, you'll get killed.
So:
•the secret handshake is to work hard.
•Be passionate, but don't run to SS.com to get answers to everything. Use it when you're stuck. Otherwise, see the first bullet
•Look for a mentor
•Take business courses...
Just my .02 ...
M |
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Joe Morahan, Photographer
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Denver | Co | USA | Posted: 8:55 PM on 12.11.10 |
| ->> +1 Michael!!!! |
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Sherrlyn Borkgren, Photographer
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Eugene | OR | USA | Posted: 6:55 PM on 12.13.10 |
->> This could be the material for a book
"How to Become Famous Quickly"
Robby I'll never forget your name. I think questioning human beings instead of only googling is a respectable way to brainstorm ideas or just hear what others may want to share.
I'm an intermittent kinda SS member so I don't know if I missed some former messaging. It is interesting the correspondence that Robby's question provoked. (good or bad). Isn't interaction with other photographers what we are all here for...? As I read through some of these responses it reminds me how differently we can all perceive the same idea.
Perhaps when posing a question just letting people know that you've done some of your homework and share what you've learned thus far might earn you more respect for your question.
Life is Beautiful! Create! Enjoy! |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 6:59 PM on 12.13.10 |
| ->> Very, very well put Sherrlyn... |
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