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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Newsletter Story: Shoot Becomes Business Lesson
Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 11:36 AM on 12.09.10 |
->> http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2452
This was a great story. It was awesome to see a young photographer doing his homework and knowing his work had value. Great portraits too. Great to see him going to another local photographer for advice, great to actually know his CODB and tell the editor that he needed more money. Great to notice that the job was for a cover and should be much more than $300, student or not. 30 minute shoot or not...was ALMOST one of the best stories I have ever read on SportsShooter.
Right up until the last paragraph:
"In the end, I took the job with Dime for two reasons: 1) I’d rather it be me shooting a portrait of John Wall than anyone else and I had something specific I wanted to try, and 2), the most important point (which I learned by asking a photographer who knows a lot more than I do): Because Dime was careless enough to never ask me to sign a contract BEFORE I did the work, as soon as I pushed the shutter button I owned the copyright to the images."
The article never says this for sure, but it sounds like Ed took the job at $300 and was stoked because he owned the images. I hope that the lesson he learned and ended up taking the job for was a rate vs. space (which would be much higher for the cover) and that you own the images whether you contract with the publication or not, unless the contract is WFH, which then you would negotiate that out.
In the end, it appears as though he got only $300 for a cover of Dime, but own the image. Still a bad deal and nothing was really learned at all.
Am I reading this wrong? Did anybody read it that way.
I am hoping the lesson was that in the end, he was paid appropriately for his work AND kept his copyright to resale those images...
Again, good story, I just hope the lesson really was learned! |
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Rod Oracheski, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Wainwright | AB | Canada | Posted: 11:46 AM on 12.09.10 |
->> I read it the same way.
"Plus, if the shoot turns out great, we’ll keep you in mind for future shoots."
I've always loved that line. 'Hey, we're going to pay you pennies now but if you do great work we'll keep you in mind to underpay again later!'
It's probably a far more convincing line in their heads. |
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Lane Hickenbottom, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | usa | Posted: 12:33 PM on 12.09.10 |
->> ====>"Sure, we had emailed back and forth, but that kind of stuff doesn't really hold up in court like a good ole fashioned signed contract."
Not a lawyer, but I've seen one portrayed on TV. I think in most states an email agreement would hold up as a contractual agreement.
=====>"I said, “Everybody else may be an asshole, but I’m not.” I said"
Still not a lawyer, but again find myself disagreeing.
I know this is quoting a fictitious conversation, but something both the author and Harlan Ellison failed to do was negotiate a better deal for themselves.
The art of negotiation is an important part to getting what you want. And the first rule is to not be offended by low-ball offers. It's important to realize that there are many people out there who ARE willing to give their work away for nothing. That means it's your job to convince your client that you have something special to offer and that it is in their best interest to pony up the coin to pay you for it.
====>My overhead alone on a shoot with this much involvement is just over $900.
So for doing it for $300 the author not only failed to pay himself, but lost $600 in overhead. Bummer. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 1:38 PM on 12.09.10 |
| ->> Prices will always stay low as long as people aren't willing to reject low-ball offers... |
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Daniel Berman, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 2:26 PM on 12.09.10 |
->> Craig,
Thanks for posting this thread — It definitely sounds like he took the job for $300.
I don't understand why, once he learned about the cover and the going rate, he didn't bring that information back to Dime and renegotiate?
It sounds like he didn't really attempt to negotiate. He asked, but he didn't negotiate.
The most important lesson to glean from the article is to do your homework, know your client's needs and negotiate a contract fair to both parties.
Student or not.
Daniel |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 3:47 PM on 12.09.10 |
| ->> What an odd article. It's one thing to be naive. It's another to be knowledgeable and do it anyway... |
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Matt Brown, Photographer
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Fullerton | CA | USA | Posted: 4:58 PM on 12.09.10 |
| ->> $300? Nobody will care about John Wall at UK photos. I don't see big sales or any at all. That was a bad move. Dime will never pay you real money. It's ok to say no. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:40 PM on 12.09.10 |
| ->> That is without a doubt the silliest thing I've read in a long time. So this kid goes on and on about all these great business practices that have been preached on this site for years. the people at this magazine(?) use ALL the phrases that make you want to punch someone in the mouth...you know.."you're only a student" "it'll be great exposure" "we'll use you again if your shit is any good, yadda yadda yadda....after finding out it will be a cover shot he demands more money...I'm saying to myself, "go baby go! show these idiots you know what your doing!" then as craig said, I read the last paragraph. wtf? all it said to me is that even though he knew he was getting screwed over it was okay because he didn't want anyone else shooting it....there is not a single iota difference in that attitude than in the guys who shoot for free just to get access. John Wall in a kentucky uniform? resell? really? to who? he doesn't play there anymore....geez, maybe we are getting what we deserve when I see stuff like this....you know you're getting screwed but do it anyway.....guess that college education stuff is a little overrated..... |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 9:18 PM on 12.09.10 |
->> " I could have limited them to one 1/4-page image, six thumbnails, whatever I fancied. I could have even sold all the photos to publications like Sports Illustrated. I had no contractual obligation to give Dime Magazine a single photo. Sure, we had emailed back and forth, but that kind of stuff doesn't really hold up in court like a good ole fashioned signed contract."
And since you didn't have a contract they could have told you to pound sand and paid nothing. Seems like a Pyrrhic victory to me. |
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Andrew Nelles, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | usa | Posted: 9:30 PM on 12.09.10 |
->> Mark is right, having a contract for an assignment has saved my butt several times.
Has a client once tell me their "budget has changed" the day after a shoot, tried to pay less than half of the agreed rate. Our signed contract saved me on that one. |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 9:56 PM on 12.09.10 |
| ->> I don't think Ed is a member anymore, but he can be reached at ecmatthewsphotography@gmail.com . Maybe he can answer the question on how much he was paid. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:10 PM on 12.09.10 |
| ->> stew, he was paid $300. did you read the story? |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 11:18 PM on 12.09.10 |
| ->> Hey Chuck, yes, I read the story. And from what I can tell, it does sound like he shot it for $300. Ed does not confirm this, but leaves it very vague at the end, as he was justifying shooting it for $300 for his stated reasons. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 11:58 PM on 12.09.10 |
->> Wow.
These are not exactly "at the buzzer in the finals" images. Posed studio shots of John Wall in a Kentucky jersey - images almost certainly not model released and definitely not trademark released for the Kentucky jersey - will be worth...oh...basically nothing.
Without releases, who is going to want to license these shots - particularly after they've already run in another publication? Wall is a college basketball player. A well covered, heavily hyped player. Unique images during gameplay might have some value. But posed studio shots? I wonder if the author has ever heard of "media day"?
So all of the author's pontificating about business practices amounted to...oh...basically nothing. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 7:53 AM on 12.10.10 |
->> "Stupid is as stupid does" - Forrest Gump.
It's rare, but I'm essentially speechless. With all due respect, Ed, where ever you are, I hope you have a backup plan in life because if the photojournalism thing doesn't work out, you're screwed. How many times do we have to preach the same thing over and over before it sinks in?
I'm going for a run. After reading this, I need it. |
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