SportsShooter.com - Exclusive rights to photos

	Highland \| IL \| USA \| Posted: 9:51 PM on 11.02.10
	->> Where can you eat out three meals a day for $25? Are we reading this correctly that all they are offering you is to cover your expenses? I'm not an attorney, perhaps one of our in house guys will pipe up, but where's the consideration necessary to create a contract here? What exactly are you getting in return for all of your work and creativity?

Samuel Lewis, Photographer

	Miami \| FL \| USA \| Posted: 9:52 PM on 11.02.10
	->> You might want to consider the following: http://www.digitalphotopro.com/business/5-tips-for-avoiding-the-rights-grab...

Ian L. Sitren, Photographer

Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 10:02 PM on 11.02.10

->> I am not clear; is that in addition to what they are paying you for the two weeks?

And yes if you agree that the work is "work for hire" by contract, you have no further right to the photos.

If that is all they are paying you, my first thought is... Are you nuts? However if perhaps they are taking you around the world shooting in the French Alps and such, maybe it is a fun young guys adventure.

Is your gear insured?

Jayne Oncea, Photographer

	Saugus \| CA \| USA \| Posted: 10:35 PM on 11.02.10
	->> Hey,the $25 could cover a few years membership for SS

Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer

	McAllen \| TX \| USA \| Posted: 11:38 PM on 11.02.10
	->> "Do they have a right to own my photos" Please excuse this but, yes, if you are stupid enough to sell the copyright to your photos for $25 a day then they have every right to take advantage of you. We're all kind of hoping that you won't prove so gullible.

Mike Janes, Photographer

	Attica \| NY \| USA \| Posted: 12:12 AM on 11.03.10
	->> Yea, if you agree to it they have the right. Personally I wouldn't agree to it, and not sure what the secondary market would be for them. Two weeks of work and you walk away with nothing doesn't seem right. Non-profit and charity are two different things, have to remember that. Sporting event non-profit seems like you better be getting a day fee each day and some rights to your images.

Sina McCarthy, Photographer, Assistant

Fremont | CA | United States | Posted: 12:51 AM on 11.03.10

->> Patrick, I wish it was a typo, believe me. The organization is not well-funded and they're asking me to volunteer in exchange for the paid-trip out of the country.

Mark, they are provided meals full-day plus $25 per diem.

Ian, yes, my gear is insured. Armando and everyone else here, thanks for the advice. I have not signed the contract yet so it does not mean that I am going. The negotiation is still on the table. This is all new for me so please bear with me.

Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant

Boise | ID | US | Posted: 1:08 AM on 11.03.10

->> I would laugh if someone offered that to me. Not kidding, either. Nonprofit doesn't mean that no one is getting paid; it means that they don't have to pay taxes (usually).

You should get paid for your two weeks of all-day and all-night work.

$250/day without any usage rights, I might consider. That's where you (as someone who is a trained professional) start to make a living off your efforts. You still have to pay your own rent at home while you're gone.

Mark Peters, Photographer

Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 1:48 AM on 11.03.10

->> Look at it this way....

How much could you make doing something else? And what is the fair market value of the "vacation" part? Oh...is it a trip you would actually want to take and pay for yourself?

Because basically you are being asked to barter your time and work product for a "free" trip. But it isn't free. It is costing you two weeks of your life, your image rights and the opportunity to make money elsewhere. It might be cheaper and certainly more enjoyable to pay for a trip yourself with what you make during the time you aren't shooting for them - and do what you want, not what they want you to do all of the time.

Mike Janes, Photographer

Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 2:02 AM on 11.03.10

->> There are organizations out there that need help who are poorly funded, and if it's something you believe in there's no shame in providing that help. Note you have to really make sure they are poorly funded and not just crying poverty! However, what has been presented so far is, as Israel pointed out, laughable.

Personally, I'd start negotiating trying to keep as many rights as humanly possible, and a pay rate that is going to work out for both of you, as well as looking at secondary usage when you do keep your rights to make it worthwhile. If nothing can be reached tough, no go...hopefully something can.

Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor

Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 8:58 AM on 11.03.10

->> Working out of country for $25 a day? You will loose money the minute you commit to this. Money, that stuff that pays yur bills, is a much needed item if you are running a business. If you can afford to take off the time and treat this as a vacation, great. Otherwise donate a point & shoot, a few memory cards, and wish this "non-profit" group a nice trip. Is everyone else on the trip getting paid $25 per day?

Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer

McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 9:41 AM on 11.03.10

->> 1) Is this something that you'd really like to do photography-wise?
2) Is this non-profit a registered charity?

If so you might think about doing it and deducting a normal day-rate (say $500 per) as an in-kind donation to the charity.

You'd have to establish that by sending them an invoice for the regular amount less you "donation" amount equaling zero. Then have them sign off on the donation.

At least then you'd have a few thousand you could deduct on your tax return.

Richard Orr, Photographer

Longmeadow | MA | USA | Posted: 10:20 AM on 11.03.10

->> Sina,

You really need to be more specific about what it is they want you to do.

For example, my daughter works for a non-profit and they go to Haiti during their spring breaks to do missionary work. They use photos for their fund raising and what not.

If they were picking up the cost for me to go down and shoot for them, and I had the time, I would gladly do it for the cost of food. I am sure there would be some agreement that could be made about the use of the photos.

If it were the a charity that I was NOT deeply involved with, it doesn't really seem like a good idea.

My guess is that someone at the non-profit simply looked up what they should do on the internet and wrote it down.

I always use the "seek first to understand and then be understood" rule. Be prepared to explain to them why such a restrictive use agreement is not a good idea for you, and understand why they don't want to allow you to use your own work.

Life can be a discussion. It doesnt have to be an argument.

Alan Look, Photographer

	Bloomington/Normal \| IL \| United States \| Posted: 10:22 AM on 11.03.10
	->> Taking Jim's idea a little furter.... Every time they use your photo, bill them the same way so you can get the additional "charitable" donation. Of course, the bottom line is that you still have to make money and show a profit or your donation may still equal nothing. consult your CPA before you try going this route.

Dave Prelosky, Photographer

Lower Burrell | Pa | US | Posted: 10:35 AM on 11.03.10

->> You might want to bookmark this site:

http://www2.guidestar.org/

I found it while wandering through the web one day. If I recall there is a simple registration, but the access to information non-profits are required to provide is worth the bother. PDF copies of msndstory, public, IRS filings - their Form 990 - provide insight into nonprofit revenue and expenditures. The information seems to lag at least a year behind, but there is usually enough to see trends and basics.

Ian L. Sitren, Photographer

	Palm Springs \| CA \| USA \| Posted: 11:45 AM on 11.03.10
	->> Guys, the donation write off scheme was or still is not IRS acceptable. Been discussed many many times. Is there some newer rule? http://www.photoattorney.com/2006/07/deductions-for-donating-photography-to... "What about your time and talent that it takes to take the photo? Publication 526 specifically states that you cannot deduct the value of your time or services."

Nick Doan, Photographer, Assistant

	Scottsdale \| AZ \| USA \| Posted: 12:08 PM on 11.03.10
	->> Take it easy for a minute guys. The trip out of the country might be worth it... Say, I was offered a trip to Fiji, where the organization is going to put me into a four or five star hotel on the beach (with meals included), and I just needed to follow their executives into the woods two hours a day to shoot a retreat. That AND $25/day? I'd do it! ;)

Sina McCarthy, Photographer, Assistant

Fremont | CA | United States | Posted: 12:35 PM on 11.03.10

->> Thanks Richard, Dave and Nick! The trip to Slovakia is all paid for including five star hotel. I didn't expect that I would get criticisms like this from some people. The only reason that I would consider this offer is because I want to build my experience, portfolio and resume. I am still new in this area and this is once a lifetime opportunity to get my name recognize. For this sports photography business as newcomers, it is hard getting into the door. It takes years and I am have been doing this for over a year. As I build my experiences in negotiations, I can request for a higher pay.

As of now, the negotiation is still on the table and I am still learning.

Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer

	McAllen \| TX \| USA \| Posted: 12:52 PM on 11.03.10
	->> "Publication 526 specifically states that you cannot deduct the value of your time or services." Hmmm. Do the trip, charge them $500 per day, let them cut you a check and then donate the money back to them...

Angel Valentin, Photographer

RIO GRANDE | PR | Puerto Rico | Posted: 1:13 PM on 11.03.10

->> Hey Sina, if you wanna do it go ahead and do it. You'll learn some day what works and what doesn't. In the end your decision is yours to make. Your reputation and name are yours to protect. You'll learn. The advice given by others is based on their experiences which you seemed to be seeking. Don't be offended because you don't like what they said. It's hard out here for full time freelancers so resentment, veiled or otherwise, is natural. So suck it up, you'll learn to deal with snipes as you get older. If I didn't have to worry about paying cost of living expenses I'd go around the world shooting and giving away images for free.

Alan Look, Photographer

	Bloomington/Normal \| IL \| United States \| Posted: 2:14 PM on 11.03.10
	->> Guess I learned something today. Another $25 well spent this year.

Dustin Bradford, Photographer, Photo Editor

Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 2:37 PM on 11.03.10

->> Uh guys, "per diem" USUALLY means your daily meal/incidental allowance. $25 is a little low, I used to get 40-60 per day, but this is not a COMPENSATION amount, instead, it is intended to reimburse travel expenses and reduce the burden on traveler of keeping receipts, etc.

Not saying whether or not the overall deal is bad or good, but jumping all over the incedental expense reimbursement rate is probably overkill.

John H. Reid III, Photographer

	Gates Mills \| OH \| USA \| Posted: 3:01 PM on 11.03.10
	->> Sina, Make sure you read the contact VERY closely. Granting exclusive rights may prevent you from even using photos in your portfolio. And as Angel Valentin said, those of us who make our living primarily from sports photography are not going to be pleased, as we often get clients wanting us to do work for free (or WFH at a very low rate) because "well, such and such does it that way."

Landon Finch, Photographer

	Colorado Springs \| CO \| USA \| Posted: 3:25 PM on 11.03.10
	->> "Hmmm. Do the trip, charge them $500 per day, let them cut you a check and then donate the money back to them..." Is that TurboTax advice? You have to claim the $500 as income and then you'd write it off. It's a wash (if its even legal).

Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer

	McAllen \| TX \| USA \| Posted: 3:42 PM on 11.03.10
	->> If BP can deduct $10billion from their taxes out of the $20billion Gulf recovery fund that they've set up there's got to be some way to work the deal. A quick incorporation perhaps?

Ron Scheffler, Photographer

Hamilton (Toronto area) | Ontario | Canada | Posted: 3:59 PM on 11.03.10

->> Is the five star hotel donating rooms to this non-profit? It kind of strikes me as strange that they would be staying at a high end hotel if they have funding issues.

At the least, if you really want to do this, you should negotiate a non-exclusive use contract that also clarifies that the non-profit will not sell or share your work to third parties. Since you are, after all, donating two weeks of your time, during which you will not be generating income, the organization should understand that you need to find secondary revenue streams for these images... but you also need to determine whether it's possible to do so. Will anyone other than the non-profit care about this event and want to buy photos? Will these be photos of high profile athletes? Will this event be covered by international media such as AP, Reuters, AFP, Getty, etc.? If so, then the likelihood of you generating additional revenue will be reduced due to the very efficient international image distribution of these agencies.

I sympathize with you because you're in that catch-22 situation where you need the experience but are having difficulty getting work without experience... Please try to understand why some comments have been highly critical and how this type of situation has been a detriment to making a career from sports photography specifically, and from photography in general.

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