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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Marching band woes
Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 10:10 PM on 10.23.10 |
->> Hi all,
A couple of times a year, I photograph a marching band event for the paper. I treat it like a regular sport, as I was in band in high school, so I understand the landscape.
Increasingly, I've found that the restrictions are tougher than many sports I typically cover.
The on-site photo marshals are usually friendly, but in recent years, typically hand out various photo restrictions, including:
"Stay in this [small] area, no roaming at all." I wonder if they worry about photographers running onto the field and grabbing a trumpet to play a quick version of "Louie Louie." Just bizarre.
"You can shoot field competition only, no photographing of bands warming up, not without prior approval." I get the sentiment, as it's not good to bug them prior to competition. If I have enough notice I'll get call the band director to get approval, but curiously have been denied in the past.
"No closeups of individuals, group shots only." I've been told a host of things, mostly concerning privacy issues of the competitors. Huh?
I wonder if marching band organizers have had problems with overzealous parents, but overall, I see the same numbers of GWCs at football or volleyball matches.
Marching band is not one of those things we (or most papers) spend a lot of time covering. Football goes on section fronts, and the access is usually great. The quality of the marching bands in Indiana is very high, but it does not get the same exposure typically, yet has tighter restrictions.
How is it in your part of the country? |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 10:22 PM on 10.23.10 |
| ->> On another note: While you'll see bands in parades everywhere, is the field-show marching band an American-only institution, or is it world-wide? |
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Crystal LoGiudice, Photographer
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Grand Island | NE | USA | Posted: 10:50 PM on 10.23.10 |
| ->> I have shot several marching band competitions (in Louisiana and Iowa)and I am also a colorguard/winterguard instructor and choreographer in my free time and I have not experienced any restrictions other than common sense things. I have shot one DCI show when they still had it in Baton Rouge, La. and there was a little more restrictions there but I had no problem photographing the corps warming up. |
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Blaine McCartney, Photographer
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Sheridan | WY | USA | Posted: 10:50 PM on 10.23.10 |
| ->> At the last paper I worked at in Nebraska, Columbus had a Marching Band Festival where probably around 20-30 schools participated in either marching or field competitions, or both. Not once was I denied any sort of access or even told where or where not to be. |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 11:11 PM on 10.23.10 |
| ->> Crystal, good point about DCI. I've photographed a couple of DCI events here in Indy, and I've found the restrictions to be FEWER for this elite marching band event than are those for the state high school circuit. |
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Chad Ryan, Photographer
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 1:10 AM on 10.24.10 |
->> Robert, I'm guessing the recent restrictions have a lot more to do with ISSMA's contract with their "official" photographer than they are willing to admit. They understand completely that newspapers, and I'm not suggesting the Star is doing it, but newspapers are shooting a ton of pics and putting them up for sale. They likely figure the restrictions will curb some of that, since it likely benefits them to have the official photog get the sales. This is the only reason for not allowing anyone to photograph individuals in my opinion because their photog is surely shooting individuals.
As far as the loss of access to warm up areas and such, I'm not sure. Could be more of the same, but it's probably another case of one person doing something stupid in the past and screwing it up for everyone else.
I was planning to add video coverage for our paper's website of the state competition at Lucas Oil next weekend. But if the restrictions are as bad as that, I'll forego suggesting the added video coverage and just sit it in the stands and enjoy watching my son play in the show. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 2:10 AM on 10.24.10 |
| ->> My wife is a colorguard and winterguard instructor as well, so I cover many competitions and as Crystal has already stated, no restrictions other than the obvious don't obstruct the event or participants. All access was never an issue, and they take the competitions very seriously here in Southern California. |
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John Korduner, Photographer
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Baton Rouge | LA | United States | Posted: 3:48 AM on 10.24.10 |
->> This sounds like a typical "Boyle's Law" type application. Pressure*Volume= Constant could just as easily be applied as Public interest * effort = Constant...and constant=profit margin.
As interest in a sport increases, there's a proportionate decrease in likeliness someone will question the dictated terms of agreement. If the band wants 10 photographers, and there are 10 photographers interested in band we have equilibrium....but if there are 20 photographers, you need to increase the effort required until there's only 10 people willing to accept the terms. If there's only 5 photographers, you need to sweeten the terms until you find 5 additional photographers.
As previously stated, there's probably a contracted photographer. When you add enough parent volunteers willing to do what they're told, you begin to quickly approach equilibrium....and therein lies the question: Which photographer will agree to photograph the event wearing only a banana hammock and glittered press-on nails in order to secure the remaining credential? |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 4:25 PM on 10.24.10 |
->> @ Curtis, yes. There is normally an "official" photographer who works these events, normally with more access. I should have mentioned that earlier, and Chad Ryan hit the nail on the head, as far as that sort of thing goes locally. My paper does make a profit through sales of our images, but this benefits the parents/supporters, as there is potentially a larger pool of images from them to choose from.
It's out of my pay grade to make any decisions, but at some point, if access is just too cumbersome to navigate, we may just stop covering these things altogether. It's high school marching band, not the NFL. Still, I get a kick out of covering it, assuming I can do my job. I'll chat with my DOP this week.
@Louis, it's been a number of years, but I understand the So Cal marching band landscape well (Poway High School, 1987), and curiously, it's very similar here in Indiana, as far as competitiveness and zeal.
Thanks all, as I suspected, it seems to be a localized access issue. |
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Darron Silva, Photographer
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Granite Falls | NC | USA | Posted: 5:07 PM on 10.24.10 |
->> I'm surprised the Indy Star is putting up with these restrictions. Not being able to shoot an individual is a pretty big deal, IMHO. I would never shoot high school football, or any other high school sport, with such a restriction. Why should band be any different? The same goes for shooting warm ups and behind the scenes stuff.
I hope the Star and other papers in the state are able to work together to change the mind of the ISSMA's mind on this. If I recall correctly, there was a similar battle with the group over papers selling prints from high school athletics back when I was working in Indaiana in the late 1990s. The papers protested, and the state backed down.
Good luck with it. |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 6:30 PM on 10.24.10 |
| ->> Thanks Darron and John for your thoughts, I'll talk with my boss tomorrow, and we'll get it sorted out. |
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Chad Ryan, Photographer
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 8:28 PM on 10.24.10 |
->> It really is sad that things are this way in Indiana, as I'm sure they are in other states. I don't begrudge the "official" photog making money, but my contention is and has been that the contractor can not possibly cover the bands/teams from our coverage area the way we do. Not that they don't have the talent, just that there are too many bands/teams/kids to shoot in a short time. They are trying to get as many individuals photographed as possible and they could be from warm-ups, during the show or after. It doesn't matter to them as long as Joe Trombone player's pic makes the gallery for a possible sale.
I am trying to cover key moments and find interesting angles and visuals as much as possible, and to say that parents can't purchase my photos and must settle for something shot during a warm up is ridiculous. To be fair, I also don't agree with my newspaper's decision to have me post all of my photos to a for-sale gallery. I've protested that with my bosses, but you can figure how far that went. I do believe that being able to put up a gallery of tightly edited images would be a way to go that ISSMA and the newspapers could make work ... but they won't.
The last time I shot the state finals we still had pretty much free reign to move around and shoot individuals. This was maybe three or four years ago. Now if we're supposed to stay in one spot and just get groups I have to agree with Robert that it may not be worth the hassle to be there. I hate to admit that because these kids work their tails off and don't get much coverage at all. It's not their fault the parties that be are unreasonable. Not to mention, as a former trombone player I enjoy watching and photographing these shows.
Problem is ISSMA just wants us to have a picture that says, "You were there," and in my case, my bosses just want our paper to have a picture that says, "We were there," along with 250 more to sell. |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 9:26 PM on 10.24.10 |
| ->> How about just saying no? When it comes to organizers dictating what you can shoot ("group shots only") then I'd be okay with a photographer shooting nothing. Any problems of "For God's sake man, what do we print?" can be addressed later. |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 10:31 PM on 10.24.10 |
->> Chad,
FYI: One thing that you'll find if you come down for finals is a set of restrictions detailing that there are some band members who are not "cleared" via an official waiver for appearance in media outlets. It's frustrating. Start working your local band directors early. . .
Jim,
Respectfully, I'm not in the habit of coming back with nothing from my shoots. If there is 0% chance/absolutely zero opportunity to make photos, that's one thing, but when I get on the scene of a story, and there are restrictions, I work within the parameters, make publishable images, and figure I'll sort it out later. As my old DOP Chip Maury used to say: "we can't publish an excuse." |
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Jeannette Merten, Photographer
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 1:10 AM on 10.25.10 |
->> "a set of restrictions detailing that there are some band members who are not "cleared" via an official waiver for appearance in media outlets."
I'm curious how this could stand up in court - there is not an expectation of privacy at a large public event like a band performance meet. While schools often have these for "in the classroom" situations (where there is some privacy) - on a football field or stadium? I doubt it. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 1:57 AM on 10.25.10 |
->> Take it from the parent of a student that is a member of one of the top marching band programs in the state of California ... YOU HAVE NO IDEA!
(I have shot maybe 25 marching band field show competitions in the past 3 1/2 years ...including the Bands of America Grand Nationals held in Indianapolis every year. I think some of the best photographs I've made the past few years have involved my daughter's marching band ... behind-the-scenes, practice and field show competitions.) |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 8:00 AM on 10.25.10 |
| ->> Bert, so true. Access gets nice images for these events, and Grand Nationals is no exception. I'm sure you have some killer stuff. I don't have the competitions under my belt that you do, but just for the heck of it, I just updated my page with pix from a couple of competitions a few years ago; all backstage and reax pix, stuff requiring better than "in the photo pen" access. |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 8:04 AM on 10.25.10 |
| ->> Hey Jeannette, cool set of pix! A 600 person marching band! Unreal! |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 12:46 PM on 10.25.10 |
->> "I'm not in the habit of coming back with nothing from my shoots"
That is, generally, a good thing but when we've been confronted by somewhat similar situations (an AD changing long established state-wide rules about where photogs can shoot football games from) we got permission from our editor to walk. The AD soon changed his mind after he realized that there'd be no pictures of his team in the paper.
Sometimes it's better to just say no. |
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Tom Gannam, Photographer
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St. Louis | MO | USA | Posted: 8:08 PM on 10.25.10 |
->> As far as Marching band competitions go, I have probably photographed every aspect of them at some time or another. One of my main clients is the contracted photography company at hundred of these things every year. While we are the "official" photographers at a lot of them, I always see the local guys shooting and have rarely ever seen or heard of them being given any undo restrictions, other than staying off the field and other common sense stuff.
It sounds like another example of somebody putting restrictions in place just to be able to say they make the rules and you have to follow them. After having shot competitions from the small local high schools in Iowa to the National championships and DCI competitions I find it silly that some governing body would find it necessary to put in place arbitrary restrictions. After all, Most photographers that I have had the pleasure of chatting with over the years are following one band around or are merely covering the story of the competition as an event and are doing little to effect the competition as a whole. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Indiana | IN | USA | Posted: 11:26 PM on 10.25.10 |
->> Robert, I'm sorry to hear you've had to deal with the conditions and restrictions you spoke about. I never shot marching bands until I came back to Indiana 2 1/2 years ago and working at such a small circulation, we tend to do a lot of that here.
One high school in particular typically makes it to the state finals each year, sort of a tradition. And we cover these ISSMA events from beginning to end. Yeah, it sort of gets old, but I have taken it as a challenge to try to do as many different things with it as I can. It has worked out pretty well. Plus, I have received a lot of good tips from members here on the site about how to work different angles of the competition.
And.. I have never once had any issues with ISSMA officials or any parents. I try to go do my job the best way possible and get out of the way when finished. The band directors at both high schools here that I cover have been pretty awesome people to work with. I have had unlimited access to practices and during competition days, these folks have given me up close and personal access to nearly everything I needed to do to come away with the images I wanted.
Even the parents have been very good to work with. Sometimes parents can be difficult to work with, but I have to admit, I've never had that problem here. They are good people to know especially when you're trying to gather information, like names. Very important.
Here is my latest work from Saturday: http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=300 |
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Stephen Brashear, Photographer, Assistant
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Seattle | WA | USA | Posted: 2:32 AM on 10.26.10 |
| ->> I'd be very leery of "a set of restrictions detailing that there are some band members who are not "cleared" via an official waiver for appearance in media outlets." Besides the fact there there is not a 'reasonable expectation of privacy' at a band competition, the general right to privacy afforded students at school and in the classroom does not extend to activities such as band and athletics, because they are extracurricular activities, which student voluntarily take part in. To me there is an ulterior motive behind the restriction. |
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Robert Scheer, Photographer
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Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 8:52 AM on 10.26.10 |
->> Jeff, I'm glad it's been smooth for you down in Princeton. You've got the luxury of building up a great rapport with the local folks, which helps you a lot I'm sure.
We just don't do too much marching band stuff at The Star, other than a quick hit for our zoned editions once or twice a year. Not enough to build up much in the way of local relationships, but really it shouldn't come down to that. I'm covering a big volleyball match tonight, of a team I haven't covered in a couple of years, and I'm sure access will be excellent.
But, about 8-10 years ago we had a reporter and a few photographers do a six month mini-project on one of the local bands (Lawrence Central High School). Access was and is great with them, but it's just one of many local bands we cover.
Curiously, after the piece published, along with the "atta boy!" calls and emails, we got a significant number of correspondence from ticked off parents with kids at other schools, wanting to know why we didn't cover THEM! Sigh. . . . . |
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Chad Ryan, Photographer
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 10:04 AM on 10.26.10 |
->> A few years ago, I did multimedia pieces from every band in our coverage area, something like 20 + bands. Every one of the directors was great and helpful. The kids were great, and of course the parents all wanted their kids to be in the clips. Everyone loved the project and wondered why I couldn't do it again in the following years.
My point is that if these restrictions are going to be enforced, it is 100% the doing of ISSMA - not the directors or anyone else actually involved with the bands. They want to control everything. I was as a regional competition two weeks ago watching my son's band. The announcer at the venue made sure to let everyone know, multiple times, that ISSMA owned the copyright to all still photos and video produced from the event. I understand this isn't a new thing, but it still doesn't sit well with me when a governing body claims to own copyrights to all content produced. In any case, I put together a video of the performance from the stands for our use at home, but for the average parent the ominous copyright warnings must have been a little unsettling. Then again, maybe the parents don't listen to care about ISSMA's blanket rights grab.
I'm rambling now, but I would have liked to have covered the state finals this weekend, but instead I'm going to take my family down, watch my son compete then stop at either PF Changs or Buca Di Beppo for dinner on the way home. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 10:59 AM on 10.26.10 |
->> Robert, oh I feel the pain of "why didn't you cover our ..." I hear that constantly. And bumping into people here that are aunts, uncles, cousins, in-laws of other people you just covered is more than a frequent occurrence. It's sad the organizing body makes it difficult for coverage.
You are right, it's much easier to build a relationship with people here because it is so small and very rural too. (Thank goodness Evansville is close). As you know, high school gyms often have very poor lighting. I had the opportunity to have some input at a school renovation project about that issue.
I made suggestions to the athletic director at this school concerning the lights and the color of the playing surface itself. They listened. The lights were improved tremendously and the floor was redone to a brighter surface. It had been this nasty, deep yellow color. Also, the lanes had been painted a deep maroon and those were eliminated completely. Players faces would have a red cast to them all the time. That problem has been remedied. |
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