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Do not screw other photographers... the second screw!
Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 4:16 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Brian Blanco wrote:
->> Oh, and for the record, if that IS what we're talking about then that's just absurd. My kid is six weeks old and when he does eventually play in some league I'm going to take photos from wherever I want, whenever I want and however I want and I don;t want to hear squat from some league photographer.
Come on. Seriously?
Event photographers have been coming on here for years complaining about loosing this "T&E" stuff and I've always assumed it was something significant.
This is a photojournalism and sports photography message board. Taking snap shots of kids squatting next to soccer balls and putting some cheesy template around it is not exactly sports photography. No offense to the people who do i t (there may be money in it for all I know) but really? Is that what I've been reading about people so fiercely defending for all these years? Really?
What better way to start the sequel about respect for other photographer with this morsel from Mr. Blanco and how he views what I do. No offense to the people who do it??? How else am I supposed to receive that.
Yes, I do T&I and YES a still consider myself a damn good sports photographer. If you want to respect the industry and what I do, you don't need to buy a 5 x 7 from me, but you sure as hell don't need to say something like this! |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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| | | Posted: 4:19 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Brian
Be sure to remember its T&I shots you'll be shooting over the league shooters shoulder ... NOT T&A shots.
Those photos may be rampant on the Florida beaches, but not at Little League games :0) |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 4:26 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Paul,
I can read what I wrote and see where it appears offensive to someone who does that type of stuff and that certainly wasn't my intention, but what I'm really saying is that I know I get TIRED of reading about these turf wars between little league photographers on here ALL THE TIME. It just seems like a lot of drama for the type of work being done. That's all.
Let the event photographers make me as "Inappropriate" as much as they want, I get tired of reading about it. This T&E stuff is not worth the amount of "ink" that it gets on this site.
No disrespect to anyone. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 4:28 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> I have been shooting action sports as a major part of my work since 1978 ... over the years I also shoot T&I quite a bit .... I don't do T&I specifically for the money ... I do it because the parents want to buy it and diversity is the key to long term success ... it's servicing a need and that is what business is all about .... just because T&I may be considered less glamorous than capturing the winning touchdown in the Super Bowl, doesn't make it any less credible of an occupation. Paul A's action work is proof that T&I shooters are not one-trick ponies .... offering a quality product to a customer willing to pay for same should not be considered cheesy or lame ... it's honest work that helps fill the gaps between assignments and other opportunities ..... and when done well, a great sense of satisfaction for all involved. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 4:39 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Brian, if your "going to take photos from wherever I want, whenever I want and however I want and I don;t want to hear squat from some league photographer."
Your not only going to be disrespecting your fellow photographers, but also the league officials, other parents there to watch the game and probably embarrass the hell out of your kid as well.
Going into anything with that blowhard attitude accomplishes nothing for anyone.
If you'd like to photograph your own child, thats great, that should be every parents right, and given your a photographer, that means you've got better skills and tools than the average parent as well. More power to you and your family will have tons of great images and memories.
However, instead of being the typical little league jackass parent that gives all other parents a bad name with the example they are setting in front of the kids, why not show a little civility ?
Why not explain to the league and coaches, officials and anyone else who's got a role in regulating the game that your there to take photos of your child and is that okay with them. 99% of the time they will say thats just fine. Maybe due to space and safety concerns you might have to shoot outside the fence for a baseball game. Thats life.
Just because you might have a 400 2.8 does not mean you own the place or have any more rights than another parent. I see that every week with HS football games this year. Some parent thinks that just because they bought a new camera lens they should get to go out onto the field without asking permission from the schools AD or others in charge. They are stepping out in front of everyone else, literally onto the field because they feel more entitled than anyone else there doing a job.
As a parent you've got the right to pay your $6 for your ticket, and sit in your seat in the stands and not interfere with other fans enjoyment of the game. Thats all the more rights you've got. Doing this for a living or your equipment doesn't change that when your there as a parent.
Anything more than that is a privilege and one that probably will be granted if you can conduct yourself like a mature adult. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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| | | Posted: 4:43 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Butch
If we had a quality league photographer or school event photographer around here, maybe I'd buy their photos. But the companies in this area that shoot sports are terrible ... and I don't just mean by my standards ... I have heard it from quite a few parents.
A local studio around here shoots schools and sports. The class photos they had shot of the 4th grade class (last grade in elementary schools) over the past few years were awful. Its a static photo of a bunch of kids, their teachers and the principal, it ain't rocket science ... the studio had a multi-year contract to shoot it and the school didn't want them shooting it again, but also didn't want to violate the contract, so it puts them in a sticky situation.
Again, if you can shoot that is great, but when I see a whole brick & mortar studio producing awful work after awful work ... I have no problem shooting my own kid playing ... and last year after being volunteered by the PTA President to shoot the 4th grade photo. Since I did it as a volunteer and donated all the prints to the 4th grade class there was no violation of the contract.
In this case ... why should my annual PTA dues subsidize a studio that clearly has no idea how to expose, compose, colour correct or properly shoot a photo? |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 5:03 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Why wasn't this topic allowed to just die with the last thread? |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 5:06 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Are you guys really expecting to make a measurable profit off of other photographers? I mean, we're not doctors and lawyers here. The 5x7 we can afford is simply not worth this much discussion. Now, if photographers talked each other up, then yeah, that'd make a difference because we'd all look like professionals. But no client wants to be around this kind of talk. :) |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 5:06 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Agreed, Bradly... |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 5:08 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Steven ... certainly you should not buy sub-standard work from anyone ... including myself ... and of course you should have the right to photograph your own child as you see fit ... doesn't bother me in the least .... in fact, I have parents behind me shooting their own shots as I work my T&I sessions all the time ... I don't care what they do because I usually hit 95-97% in sales ... I'm not losing anything by letting them snap a few shots over my shoulder ... last night I did the local AYSO U8 teams and sold 68 out of the 72 kids that play that level ... you don't hit those numbers on a voluntary purchase if your work or level of service sucks ...
All I was pointing that T&I done well is indeed an honorable profession and the genre should not be negatively labeled or take a back seat here on SS or anywhere for that matter ... honest hard work should never be belittled ... period. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 5:11 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Bradly, good question! Gee, I got my $25 worth out of thses two threads.
And I do not feel screwed for starting this discussion, discussion is what ss.com is all about. You can disagree with me without being insulting, rude and ignorant.
Happy shooting every one, and thanks for the e-mails from those who know what is like in the trenches of T&I. And if you do not think it is worhty of being called sports photography, bite me. Sorry, I was being rude, my bad. |
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John Tucker, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cordova | TN | USA | Posted: 5:53 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Sam, I think a lot of people have no clue about T&I sports photography. It may be just a kid kneeling next to a ball to some people, but it can be $4000 for less than 2 hours of shooting. That's significant for a struggling shooter. When you're the team photog and parents shoot over your shoulder, you lose those sales. Why is that loss any different from the losses suffered by newspaper photogs when the papers decide they'll run photos from the people off the streets and layoff the staff photographers? Any loss hurts. Why belittle a photographer because he shoots T&I for a living?
Butch Miller said it best, "T&I done well is indeed an honorable profession and the genre should not be negatively labeled or take a back seat here on SS or anywhere for that matter ... honest hard work should never be belittled ... period."
These Sportsshooters (T&I Shooters) work with schedules that most would not be able to do, shooting 10 kid teams every ten minutes for several hours. There is no time for perfect posing, no time to set up for the perfect shot, no time to check your strobist notes to see what's the best way to use the light. Why belittle this type of work?
I like what Jeff Mills says, "If you'd like to photograph your own child, thats great, that should be every parents right, and given your a photographer, that means you've got better skills and tools than the average parent as well. More power to you and your family will have tons of great images and memories."
and
"However, instead of being the typical little league jackass parent that gives all other parents a bad name with the example they are setting in front of the kids, why not show a little civility ?"
Shoot all the shots you want of your child, but have the common courtesy to not take business away from the guy that is contracted to do your child's work. Usually a contract that involves donating back to the league. You read on here weekly of newspapers laying off photogs, magazines cutting staff......could it be because they are accepting photos from an outside source? Maybe it was the GWC that stood on the sidelines because he had a 400 2.8 and he would give them photos for free? Does it matter to you whose toes you step on? Only when it's yours that get stepped on? Some are so arrogant that they think their work is the best around and no GUY WITH CAMERA can take their place......it's happening everyday. Open your eyes folks.
Insult Sam all you want, be rude and ignorant, but his point is well taken by this photographer and I truly see where he is coming from. Let the "huhs" and "Inappropriates" fall where they may. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 6:20 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Firstly I disagree with Sam's original post.
Now for those of you beating your chests that you will do what you want, where you want, when you want, and provide files to who you want, for whatever you choose......
Please keep that all in mind when a T&I or event shooter (or dentist who's kid is on the team) who also owns a 300, 400, or what ever lens makes you go oooooooohhhhh and has a free weekend and decides that shooting at a college or pro sporting event on spec or for fun is HIS (or HER) prerogative and that all the whiners can go sh1t in their hats. It goes both ways.
It never fails to amaze me that the very same people who want the sidelines at their events policed, and want the NCAA or pro league to do something about keeping photographers from diluting the value of their product don't see any issue being a 'GWC' themselves at an event where THEY are the outsider.
Threads like this have a way of bringing out people's true colors.
Wow thank goodness that I was knee deep in WORK the last two days and didn't see or have time to get too involved in this tread. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 6:47 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Wow. Eric, what a refreshing point of view. My kid never played sports. It was a double edged sword to me. I (tried) to play sports in HS for all four years, I pretty much sucked...ok...I sucked. but after covering sports (I worked at really small papers so I'm talking little league, middle school, jr. high and high school) and I saw how parents acted and treated their kids I was relieved when my boy didn't want to play sports. oh he played t-ball for a while and I shot photos of him, but that was back in the day when EVERYONE and their DOG didn't own a camera. I know things are different now. would I go and shoot photos of him with all the high end equipment available to me now? probably. would I try and undercut by GIVING AWAY photos to other parents? definitely not. especially if some dude (or dudette) was there trying to make a living. that said, I also would not get in the way or interfere with said shooter while he was doing his job. that's where there is somewhat of a difference in the GWC's at college games. most of them have no etiquette or knowledge of what they can or cannot do. and quite frankly a lot of them are fans and get all wound up about the game and quite frequently loose their heads....wow, sorry got long winded here...but I like that you made this point. it's food for thought and something professionals who decide to shoot at a game a T&I shooter is at need to be aware of. the high and mighty attitude is bad at any venue. but on the other end of the spectrum, professionals who do this day in and day out WON'T interfere with the event photographer. just because we're there doesn't make us the enemy. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 7:06 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> It's little league people... LITTLE LEAGUE.
It is designed, from the ground up, to be FUN. To be an opportunity for kids and parents to share the love of sports and learn and grow and all of that great stuff.
My point, by saying that I'll take pictures from 'wherever I want, whenever I want and however I want', is that it's MY KID... in a PUBLICLY FUNDED PARK.
Granted I should have specified that I wouldn't want to be shooting from an area otherwise not accessible to other parents; I meant shooting in the little league park itself not from some 'highly coveted sideline spot'. But if, as it was described earlier, there are parents standing around where they're supposed to be (with their kid) and some event photographer poses my kid next to a soccer ball, I have every right to snap a photo. Just like I would have every right to bring long glass and shoot MY KID during the action. I'd never step on an event photographer's toes by shooting other kids and giving away prints but my point, and I did have one, is that these event shooters don't own the park, my kid, or the exclusive right to own long glass.
And, just so we're clear: we're still talking about little league... it's supposed to be fun and about the parents and kids... not about turf, or money, or contracts or my personal favorite, 'respecting' a photographer, it's about the kids... remember them? Parents have a right to photograph their kids. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 7:18 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Indeed, Brian, INDEED!!! |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Northwest Missouri | MO | USA | Posted: 7:50 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> I feel no obligation to buy from an event photographer or a T&I shooter. But, those are decision I will make at the time. I probably will buy some photos when I feel it's appropriate.
I bought Scholastic photos this year. I did shoot over the photographer's shoulder, but I did it in a journalistic manner and included their photographer in my photo. What they do is unique from what I would do and it's good for my family to have an heirloom that captures my child as he is right now.
The "screwing" comes if I were to attend a game and undermine someone else's business by undercutting or offering free photos to other families. That's not something I would be inclined to do. As a professional, I feel it's only appropriate in that situation to photograph the situation for my family.
This past summer my friends Mike and Karen photographed my cousin's wedding and I shot right along with them as well. But here's the thing, I helped them get the job in the first place. I also provided all my photos to them as part of their official coverage. And I later deleted my photos which didn't include my children. It removed the opportunity and possibility that I could affect their business in a negative fashion even though it was a fellow family member's wedding.
Loyalty to the profession and one's family vary. Some pros would screw a working photographer because their family is involved, but if you've had it done to you... how could you do that to another pro? |
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John Tucker, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cordova | TN | USA | Posted: 8:22 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Brian, if you were the person with that contract, you'd see things in a different light. You say "little League" as if it is below what some "pro Sport" photographer does. Little League is big business to some people. I saw 3 leagues shot last week that grossed the photog over $10K. $10K is not little league to a photographer these days, especially when it's done in less than 6 hours total. This is JUST T&I, not action shots. Parents may have a right to photograph their kids, but what if the Pro players parents were ALL able to stand along the sidelines and shoot their "kids"? Even if it was the college kids parents doing it, would it be right? You say I'm comparing apples to oranges now..........but in reality it boils down to the same thing. Someone shooting where they are not supposed to be will put a hurt on some legitimate photogs pockets. Does it matter if it's a guy shooting the Dallas Cowboys or some Pop Warner team? Taking from someone's pocket is the same at any level. I've shot T&I for a small town here in TN for the past 6 years. The local newspaper guy has a kid that plays on one of the teams. This guy ALWAYS buys a packet from me. Once again, he is the local sports photographer. Is it because my stuff is great, probably not.....we're shooting teams (9-15 players per team) every 10 minutes. He buys because he supports the league. We donate to the league. He's not trying to undercut me, not trying to score action shots to interfere with my business. I've not even considered it being a "respect" issue. I do think highly of the guy for buying. There's some people riding very "high horses" and they forget that not every SPORTSSHOOTER shoots for Sports Illustrated. You can bet that Peyton Manning had some guy shoot his T&I along the way and to someone that photo is a prized item. Glad to see that some people get this conversation, sad to see that some people are too far above us other shooters to even open their eyes! |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 9:10 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> John, this will be my last post on this issue as I know when I'm wasting my time.
If you think that I say "little league" as if I'm looking down my nose at people who shoot little league then you should reread my last post (admittedly my post on the last thread wasn't well-worded and likely appears, incorrectly, as elitist).
My wife, for the record, is a sports writer/photographer for a small weekly paper and covers prep and youth sports exclusively. You can rest assured that I don't look down my nose at my own wife just because I shoot pro sports and she shoots youth sports. She's a dedicated journalist and the work she does is well-received by her readers and is very important to this community.
I say "little league" to remind people that it's NOT about "$10K" contracts, but that it's about children. It just strikes me as odd to hear all of these shooters having these absurd turf battles and being so defensive about something that is supposed to be fun and enjoyable and is, at the end of the day, about children.
I'm not "too far above" anybody or on a "high horse", but I know when people are taking youth sports photography too far when they're up-in-arms over parents taking their own photos. It's about kids. |
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 9:20 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Does your "10k for six hours" figure include Ll the post processing, printing, package and distributing, entering payments, processing credit cards, time and costs? I can't imagine it does. I shot 200 kids for my daughters dance studio and was buried for over a week. I wouldn't want to do that very often. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:07 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> $10,000. for one week? excuse me for putting on my "WTF Glasses!!!" I call bulls@#t on that figure. If a photographer could make that much money A WEEK shooting youth sports EVERYBODY and their DOG,CAT and pet HAMSTER would be shooting youth sports. this thread has grown beyond ridiculous. just because the original poster got his nose out of joint from a couple of comments by GWC's. I know some of you GWC's out there (oh come on, there are several thousand on this site) HATE when you're called out but please....bashing legitimate working professionals because you think they are stepping on your turf for shooting their own kids is crap. oh and as a disclaimer......IF you can TRULY prove someone makes $10,000 A WEEK shooting little league....call me...I'll carry your bags for you. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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| | | Posted: 10:23 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Chuck,
I though you pulled in $250,000 a year, plus stock options and a corporate jet at The News & Observer... no wait, that is only a measly $4807 as week ... no wonder you're pissed to find out that little league photogs are pulling in $10k a week... |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 10:23 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> "If they are other shooters in your market and you all know each other and compete with each other, why not just throw them a print or two of their kid?" Chip, I've done that countless times and in return get shooters who shoot every game their kid plays in and gives away the pics to the parents because they are his friends.
"Are you guys really expecting to make a measurable profit off of other photographers? I mean, we're not doctors and lawyers here. The 5x7 we can afford is simply not worth this much discussion." Israel, the 5x7 print sale isn't the point. It's the shooter or GWC who shows up to every game their kid is in, shoots the entire game, and gives the files away to the other parents that causes the problem.
When I started shooting the high school five years ago, I was the only one there. I was the only one willing to do it. I worked my rear end off, the parents ate it up, and I sold a ton. I donated a portion of the proceeds back to the sports program and all was good for a long time. Then the booster club and a new head coach decided I was making too much money and they were missing out. They opened the sidelines to anyone and everyone who was willing to give away the farm. My sales literally went to zero in one season, and I'm a darn good shooter. You simply can not compete with free.
I shot Pop Warner football for two seasons, and this is a small sample of the quality of product I put out http://prints.alltherightshots.com/pop_warner_sample At the end of the second season I sat down to decide once and for all if it was worth my time (because there were an awful lot of GWC's on the sidelines). I had no problem when another shooter showed up to shoot their kid - in fact, I offered whatever help and advice I could. I did, however, have a problem when that same photographer kept showing up at game after game (I mean really, how many kids does this guy have?). When I learned that my net was $0.11 per hour, I said no thanks to the next season. Point again - you simply can not compete with free, no matter how good your product is.
When a shooter shows up, as long as he sticks to his own kid, I have no problem. More power to him. But I get very territorial when I have a contract and someone starts taking food off my table just because they can. It tends to make me grouchy. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 10:25 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Craig and Chuck, he said $10K gross.
I've grossed several K in one day on a small T&I deal, so I don't doubt it's possible with the bigger leagues. |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Northwest Missouri | MO | USA | Posted: 10:31 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> That figure isn't out of the question. I worked an event where we did 15K in total sales once you included the awards photos. We had four photogs working the event in addition to a sales table. There aren't a whole lot of people around here who can staff with truly competent photographers or conduct this type of business. |
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David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 10:48 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> "those who know what is like in the trenches of T&I"
"Trenches"? Really?
Please tell me this is tongue-in-cheek or hyperbole.
After all there are quite a few folk here who have photographed in the real "trenches" of life.
Just sayin'... |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:06 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Okay, since I obviously stuck my foot in my mouth AGAIN. I have decided to carry a salt shaker with me....oh and I might just get out of this damn PESKY newspaper bidness!!! |
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John Tucker, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cordova | TN | USA | Posted: 11:45 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Chuck, call BS on it all you want, but do it one week and see what you can do. I've done it shooting one leagues soccer and baseball teams (35 baseball, 33 soccer) in back to back Saturdays. The one I mentioned earlier was done in 3 2 hour sessions and it grossed over 10K. BTW Chuck, I ALWAYS appreciate your comments, but you're off on the BS call.
I DON'T shoot the action shots as that market is all but dead in this area because of the GWC's. That's the point I think has been missed, LITTLE LEAGUE as it may be, it's BIG BUSINESS for some people. Sit back and make all the rude comments and think less of the guy shooting T&I, but there are some that make it happen and make it happen in a big way. Just because a guy works for a newspaper don't make the guy some hot shot that's better than the guy that shoots kids posing beside a ball. The newspaper guy may have benefits and perks that the T&I guy don't have.....THAT IS WHY SAM MADE SUCH A BIG DEAL OF IT.....anyone shooting when you are the contracted guy, TAKES MONEY FROM YOUR POCKET......nobody cares about that stuff until it happens to be your pocket that it is taken from.
David, talk about trenches of life.....your area (my old stomping grounds) was hit by a tornado earlier this year...I'm sure you were in those trenches......I bet somewhere in those trenches a family would give anything for their kids T&I pictures......or ANY picture. Football sidelines have always been called trenches and dealing with parents, directors, & little Bobby that is in a mood, puts the T&I guy in a trench.......nope, it not the LaGrange area of Toledo, but it can feel like it at times.....try shooting a horrible area of a town's T&I where EVERYONE pays in cash and you're carrying the money bag...you'll think you're in the trenches of life!
There's way too much criticism of the "small guy" on the boards and it's a real shame since everyone here was a "small guy" once. Once again, Thanks for Post Sam, it made me see that there are people that face the same crap as I do. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 1:38 AM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> Damn Chuck, too bad you did not say Seniors and Underclass and just limited it to youth sports, I had my deposit slips ready!!! |
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
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Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 6:40 AM on 09.23.10 |
->> Audit --
35 teams x 15 players each = 525 individuals. 5x7 individual and a 8x10 team picture (mem mate) for $19.00-$20.00 per = $10,000+-
1 team shot + 15 players = 16 shots in 10 minutes. 37.5 seconds per shot. Amazing!!! |
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Monty Rand, Photographer
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Bangor | ME | USA | Posted: 6:55 AM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> Kevin, I like your math. I shoot T&I and make great bank shooting it. I also do some college work as well. Would I love to be shooting professional sports....yes. Should I give up shooting T&I because it's not so glamorous as some have suggested.....no. I think I'll keep my 6 figure income until those more glamorous jobs come along that pay the big bucks :) |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 9:07 AM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> Kevin 10 minutes would have felt like a luxury at the T&I where the league scheduled a team every THREE minutes. My second shooter for day two of that gig is a member here and can easily vouch not only for my shoot but those of other T&I shooters as well. |
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John Tucker, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cordova | TN | USA | Posted: 11:12 AM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> Kevin, I wish I had 37.5 seconds for each kid some days....seriously, how long does it take to say knee on the ground, face the camera, smile........Doubt all you want.....The T&I guys do the math on the way to the bank, not while snapping a kid. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 1:02 PM on 09.23.10 |
->> So ... is this class warfare now?
Working PJ complains about a Poser on a D1 college sideline with a Rebel and kit lens = bad and the wrath of all that is good and holy should befall them for their mere presence in the venue because they are making life difficult for all involved .....
T&I shooter complains about the ups and downs of their trade = what are you complaining about ? It's only LITTLE LEAGUE! GET OVER IT! ... and how'd you get on SS in the first place because you are all talking bulls@#t? ....
Come on people ... we are all in the same boat here .... some are full time staffers ... some part time with a day job, some freelancers and some are sole proprietors that fill the gaps between action assignments by shooting T&I ... and God forbid ... senior portraits and weddings ( gasp! )
There is room for all these topics to be discussed here ... there is also the need to listen before we speak (or read carefully before we type in this case) so that we offer honest appraisals and opinions .. there is no need to call out others here on such issues ... we all have our problems that we face in our day-today struggles to earn a living ... and who better to discuss those problems with than other like-minded folk who have a vested interest in the outcome ... and last I looked, no one gained admittance to SS via their T&I portfolio .... but their sports action/PJ efforts.
I have worked both spectrums .... full time PJ for 24 years working youth (including 18 LLWS), HS, D1-D2-D3 college, NFL, MLB and NBA events .... I've worked shoulder-to-shoulder with Pulitzer Prize winners and Dad's with a camera shooting their child's first game ... I've also been a sole proprietor for 12 years with a diverse line of offerings ... it''s all hard work ... worthy of credit ...
As indicated, T&I work for larger leagues can gross big dollars ... the shooting time in many cases is a brief time period ... processing all those images and preparing them for delivery is not ... and the profit margin, for the time and effort and equipment invested is not a get rich quick scheme .... and when you are competing with others for the job .... it's no easy deal to land the contract in many areas because it is quite competitive .... in the process some feelings get hurt ... but no less painful or undesirable than those bumps in the road that staff shooters face in their efforts ....
As I have said before ... T&I work may sound like trivial stuff to some ... (and I wager with the current trend of layoffs, there will be more than few members here seeking out some T&I work in the not to distant future and be glad to get it) ... remember there would be no T&I shot or sold if the customers didn't want to buy the end product ... just as there would be no sale of a cover photo on SI this week if there were not readers willing to put down their hard earned cash to pick up a copy at the local newsstand ... the fact that one image will be viewed by millions, and the other by a single family, shouldn't diminish the either photographer involved ... they both provided a service to the best of their ability for the commissioned end product .... there's plenty of room for diversity in this business .... it's all good in the end .... so why shouldn't we all show a little more respect to each other when discussing these issues? |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 2:42 PM on 09.23.10 |
->> Qoute from a participant on this thread: "I'm intensely passionate about what I do. I hope that comes across in my images. Photojournalism is so much more than my profession - it's my responsibility, and it's what I've chosen to contribute."
I have chosen, in a different market,to contribute by capturing images that will be cherished by families for a very long time as well. I bring the same passion and dedication to the table. Hopefully no one here, PJ/action/T&I or whatever type of photographer, gets the same phone calls I get to replace images lost in floods and fires, or worse to get an 8x10 for a child's funeral arrangement.
Butch hit the nail on the head in his comments above. So be passionate for your craft, no matter what rows you have chosen to plow. |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 5:01 PM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> Well said Bruce! And whoever marked Bruce with a "huh"... how much more clarity do you need? |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 7:14 PM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> LOL... Oops, I meant Butch. Well said, Butch! Okay, I'm marking my own last post with a HUH. Too funny. |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 7:42 PM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> That's alright Paul, you can call me anything you want as long as it isn't late for dinner ;-) |
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David Butler II, Photographer
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Somers | CT | USA | Posted: 10:24 PM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> what is T&I |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 10:53 PM on 09.23.10 |
| ->> T&I = Team and Individual ... very popular with youth sports ... packages can include prints in various sizes, buttons, posters, decals, trading cards bookmarks ... the list goes on ... maybe not the subject matter that will end up in the Louvre ... but parents and grandparents love them .... |
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Monty Rand, Photographer
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Bangor | ME | USA | Posted: 10:00 AM on 09.24.10 |
| ->> Well said Butch. Kuddos to you!! |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 11:01 AM on 09.24.10 |
->> Butch well said. I just couldn't write that without going dark or negative. I tried..... Deleted 4 or 5 attempts and finally gave up. The bright side of all that frustrated un-posted writing is that I did get on the phone and talk it though with someone who I respect and who I wanted to make sure knew where I was coming from.
Food for thought:
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
Just because it isn't wrong doesn't mean that it's right.
~Eric |
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