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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Do not screw other photographers
Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 10:53 AM on 09.21.10 |
->> In the past two sessions for one of our soccer leagues, two kids that were on two different teams, have parents who are also professional photographers. Not GWC's, but shooters who have real photo businesses. One kid's parents bought nothing from us, and the other got just a team photo. When my kids are in something and I do not have the photo gig, I always buy some sort of package. Even if I hate the other photographer and their slime ball tactics, I feel it is only fair to support the industry. But to be so cheap as to buy just a team photo (5x7 at that) or nothing at all is truly lame. As if it is not hard enough out here, we can not even take care of our own?
Even outside of the money, the comments I get from these "fellow professionals" is just another sign that respect in our profession is like a slow leak in a tire....eventually it will all be flat. So last night, after another little snide comment was made at me, I told the parent/shooter that I buy from other photographers as a way of supporting the indistry and helping each other out.
Moral of the story...do not be a cheap prick and fork up the $15 bucks to make sure we all can make a living in a shrinking work environment. Yes, $15 is a drop in the bucket, but the money is not the issue, respect is. |
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Michael Ciu, Photographer, Assistant
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Lorain | OH | USA | Posted: 11:45 AM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> I do not like the school photographer at my son's school in the least, but I will always buy a photo. Can I take a picture of my kids in my studio that will technically look similar? Yes. Can I capture the mood my son was in while waiting in line with his friends, making faces at each other, having fun? No, and that is why I will buy from that company. My kid being a kid without me there. priceless. |
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Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | US | Posted: 11:53 AM on 09.21.10 |
->> I have to disagree with you here Sam. I'm not going to buy from you just because you're another pro shooter...I'd probably do it for the experience that Micahel Ciu was referring to but that's all.
This guy doesn't owe you anything as long as he doesn't bad mouth you for no reason or show you disrespect at the shoot what difference does it matter.
I'm sure we're going to have MILLIONS of photos of my girls so why the heck should I waste my money on a product that would be useless to me? All he needed was a team photo...you're lucky he bought that and didn't shoot his own and GIVE it to the rest of the team. How'd you like it if he screwed you like that? |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Indiana | IN | USA | Posted: 11:56 AM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> Sam, I wouldn't pay these people any attention. Go about your business and if they don't support you, then they don't. There isn't much you can do about it but complain and that hasn't put any money in your pocket either. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 12:30 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> Sorry, I have to agree with Delane. Nobody owes you a living. Case in point - photographs for my son. There's a photographer that comes to his daycare with great backdrops, nice props - not the boring same-ol-same-ol generic muslins. He does a good job with lighting but he puts more into the shot so it's actually a product worth buying. So he gets my business.
As Delane said - I have thousands of action shots of my son, why would I pay for a canned posed shot of him with a football?
Now, if said parents were giving away photos to other parents then I can see about hurting the industry. But the notion that someone should buy your product, when they don't need the product, nor want the product just because you're in the same industry doesn't make sense.
I mean seriously - are you going to turn around and hire that guy to shoot every one of your kids' birthday parties? (note: there are times when on a special occasion you might - not to support their business but to free you up from the task) Are you a cheap prick because you won't hire a photog for every personal photo op you have? |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 1:14 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> The intent of the thread was not about money, but respect and showing support for the industry. Plus, we rebate to the leagues, so you can support the league as well by getting a basic package.
John, This is not a hiring situation. But when my child is in a sport, dance, etc., I have bought a basic package just to support the photo biz and the organization. That is out of respect.
The money is trivial, but the attitude is not. Maybe I expect too much out of fellow pro shooters. I thought we could help eachother out and show some gratitude. Sorry if I am asking too much. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:20 PM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> Sam, if I applied your logic to "support the industry" I would be broke, well, more broke than I am. So when I go to the local arts festival and there are ten photographers showing their work, I'm supposed to buy something from each of them to "support the industry"? yikes, just yikes! |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 1:28 PM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> Another photographer purchasing a T&I package from you of their child is NOT a sign of respect .... Personally, it would take far more than $15 for me to feel respected by another working pro photographer .... for me, respect would be them asking for my advice, seeking my opinion on a business matter or offering to partner on an event ... it's a business ... I never sit around fussing over who buys, or who does not ... or what their occupation is .... life is too short to worry about such things ... I wouldn't appreciate the snide remarks though, but purchasing my products wouldn't be a break even on that either ... and ... never forget that "respect" is never handed out willy nilly ... it's earned ... sadly though no matter how hard you try ... some folks will never show respect to anyone .... you just keep on chugging and let someone else worry about the trivial stuff ... it has so little to do with success .... |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 1:31 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> this the beginning of a classic thread.
"I feel it is only fair to support the industry"
dude. so by NOT buying a photo package, i am being unfair to the industry and the individual? what if the individual sucks at taking pictures- which is a close second to the fact that most of us are professional photographers. i can't believe i'm typing this, but why would i pay you to snap pictures of my kids? is it so i can sit on my lawn chair and focus on yelling obscenities to the coach and referees without the distraction of taking my own pictures?
in fact, if everyone in attendance had their face behind a camera, i bet there would be significantly less stress on the sidelines, in the bleachers and on the bench. |
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Ryan Gibson, Photographer
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Calhoun | GA | United States | Posted: 1:46 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> @ Sam - I get what you're saying about the snide comments. That's not cool and I've experienced it myself on occasion. I have to disagree about purchasing photos though. As a photographer and a parent I must say that when viewing photos of my children and deciding whether to purchase I am a consumer and make my decision based on value vs. cost. 9 times out of 10 I will buy a photo of my child simply for the reasons listed by Michael. I do not however feel any obligation to do so out of respect or courtesy. I have nothing but respect for fellow photographers and the industry as a whole, but you better believe that if I get a proof of my daughter and her eyes are closed and there's a pole growing out of her head I WILL NOT be purchasing prints simply out of obligation or respect. Bottom line - if the value justifies the cost, I will buy - just like every other parent I know.
That said - I'm sure there are parents / photographers that will refuse to purchase simply because they DON'T want to support their competition. Nothing you can do about that but go about your business and try to create a product that a parent just CAN'T turn down. That's all you / we can do. |
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Nick Doan, Photographer, Assistant
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:51 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> I love pictures of my kids. I always buy their school photos because I know it's hard to mess up a can/posed shot.
However, I have a hard time buy photos of my son playing sports. Mostly, because I get to look at the photos taken by his team photographer. The underexposed, poorly framed, uncropped, ghastly crap that parents buy because they also love any photos of their kids.
I'm not saying Sam is taking crap photos. I'm just saying that I don't owe it to this industry or anybody to support people who take crappy photos. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 3:33 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> I buy the school photo of my kid because it is a nice annual thing to see his growth and it makes nice packages to send out to family members etc.
However, I can do something similar if I like, but I choose to not do "studio" shots of my son. I like candid moments, not posing. I'll leave that to the school photographer.
But when it comes to league stuff, etc. Why shouldn't I do it myself? I have the skill, I have the equipment and I have fun doing it. I shot one of my nephew's soccer games this fall and my sister-in-law was thrilled to get some peak action featuring just him and she has the right to do whatever she wants with the picture. If she wants to make 20 copies and send it to family or make a 16x20 she can.
Should a plumber not repair the leaking toilet in his house but hire another one just to support the industry? No. It's his trade and he can do it himself.
Should I hire a gardener to cut my grass just to support the economy? I could, but I choose to do it myself and put that money in my pocket.
I kind of see your logic of give the official photographer $15 for a package, but why not save yourself that $15 and expect that when his kid is playing in a league you provide packages for that you will simply not get that $15 sale.
As for the snide comments, they should keep those to themselves and let you do your job. I understand the frustration league shooters have with GWCs but if someone is a professional and can do the job themselves and wants to then why not? They are not playing with a hobby by spending $3,000 of (for them) disposable income on camera gear to shoot their kid's games. This is a professional who has tens of thousands of dollars invested and may as well save a few bucks by doing it on their own. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 4:01 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> "I understand the frustration league shooters have with GWCs but if someone is a professional and can do the job themselves and wants to then why not? They are not playing with a hobby by spending $3,000 of (for them) disposable income on camera gear to shoot their kid's games. This is a professional who has tens of thousands of dollars invested and may as well save a few bucks by doing it on their own."
George - I guess I'm having difficulty with your distinction. If a parent with a camera - any type of camera - can take a photo of their child that is good enough for them - why should they pay another person to do it? I'm not a full time plumber, but should I pay one to replace the faucet in my bathroom sink if I can do a competent job myself? Does a photographer hire an IT professional to install a router in their home just because they're not a full time professional?
Again, I get the difference with giving work away to other parents. But just because a person isn't a full time pro at something doesn't mean they should have to pay one to do a job they are fully capable of doing. So, I fail to see, in your example, why the non-full-time-photographer consumer should be expected to buy a product and spend their hard earned money but the pro shouldn't. Makes no sense - either you're providing a product the customer values at a price they can afford or you're not. Their employment status or professional status is irrelevant - especially in regards to a luxury item like sports photos. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 4:17 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> If everyone would like to send me $5 each to help show some respect for our industry I'd sure appreciate it.
Seriously though Sam, I'm a little confused here, is it about respect or money ?
You stated "Moral of the story...do not be a cheap prick and fork up the $15 bucks to make sure we all can make a living in a shrinking work environment. Yes, $15 is a drop in the bucket, but the money is not the issue, respect is."
So whats more important then ? Paying another shooter $15 to help them earn a living ? Or, to simply treat them with a respect as one of our peers, regardless of if we purchase something or not ?
Or are we supposed to not only respect them but also hand over our money ?
For me, respect is earned, though I do try to treat all my peers with courtesy. Big difference between courtesy and respect though.
I know plenty of photographers and they are all good people, but frankly there aren't that many that I'd give my hard earned money to. Why ? Because if I'm going to pay someone for a service or product, its got to be of a quality that I can't achieve myself.
Thats why when I go out to eat I only go to really good restaurants. I don't want to pay $20 for a meal at a chain restaurant that's inferior to what I can cook myself at home. No, when I go out and pay for a meal, I want to enjoy what a skilled chef can create. The type of meal that I can't cook myself.
The same goes or photography or anything else. I'm not going to be disrespectful to another shooter, or try to hurt their business, talk people out of buying etc, but I'm not going to give them my hard earned money either just because they choose the same profession.
Do you really think when a mechanic needs a car repair they take it to the garage across town out of "respect" for their fellow mechanics trying to make a living ?? |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 4:28 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> John, I agree with you. It's their kid and they can take a picture with whatever camera they want. I just said I understand the frustration. Not that it is wrong or illegal in any way. Note I did argue that if I want to take my 400 f2.8 out to shoot my kid or nephew playing soccer I will and won't care what a league shooter may think.
But I know league guys who are struggling to make sales get frustrated by a parent who has no knowledge of photography but can throw a ton of money at the problem. It takes the "craft" out of what many have worked hard at learning. Not that there aren't many pro photographers who would not be doing it if they had to actually focus the lens themselves and dunk film at the end of the day.
I didn't say GWCs have not right to do it, just that I can understand the frustration a professional has. I face it on the sidelines at pro and college games I cover. Seriously. At the MLS all-star game there were three people to my right shooting with P&S cameras and for a while one was shooting with her camera phone. It bugs me that someone so ill-prepared is next to me but I can't do anything about it. The league was fooled enough to give them a pass and they are there. I do my job and know my images will be better and get better usage.
Same with a GWC or parent who is a professional photographer who shows up at a kids' game. The league shooter is frustrated they are there while trying to do a job as a professional, but the parents have a right to do it.
John, I was simply arguing against the original poster who is upset a professional photographer comes and shoots their own. I can see being frustrated by any ol' parent not paying money but if you want to "support the profession" you give your fellow photographers some slack and don't gripe at them for not giving you $15, but go over, say hello and strike up a friendship that may benefit you in the future.
I can see, though, where my point was not clear enough. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Andrew Nelles, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | usa | Posted: 4:46 PM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> I was expecting a thread about interoffice relationships. |
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 4:50 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> I'm with Delane. I'll be the guy really pissing you off when I shoot action and team photos of my little kids t-ball team and giving it, or selling it, to other parents because they are my friends/my kids friends. I never buy anything from an event photographer and only buy one school photo for the reasons already mentioned. it goes in a box for later but I never look at it...plus, 90% of event photos I have seen are god awful to the eye of someone who shoots sports for a living. Why would I want to pay for that when I could do better myself?
On the same path, If I am shooting a wedding and there are a bunch of other photographers (pro's) there, so I care if they shoot photos? nope. more power to them. I've shot quite a few photographers' wedding's too!
you can't expect someone whose profession is that of a photographer not to take photos of their kids just because you have a booth at the game. |
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Jason Joseph, Photographer
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Dublin | OH | USA | Posted: 4:52 PM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> If the argument is that people should pay money for photos that they don't really want just to support the industry, then I think that http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/ proves that this practice happens all too often. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:02 PM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> G.J., my sentiments EXACTLY! |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 5:10 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> On a slightly different line of thinking, regarding Sam's comment "But when my child is in a sport, dance, etc., I have bought a basic package just to support the photo biz and the organization. That is out of respect.", are we really doing the best thing for the industry obligatory (assuming we did buy) a product ??
I've been covering youth sports and been to plenty of dances and things of that nature and some of the so called "event shooters" are just downright hacks. we've all come across the type, the person who bought a Sigma 70-200 2.8 and now that they got a Smugmug site and got a shirt made with "Joe Somebody Sports Images" they think they are running a photo business.
You check out these peoples images just out of curiosity and the work is appalling. They haven't a clue what they are doing and don't even edit the photos they most. Literally just dump a card and make parents wade through 800 frames they took, all the out of focus shots and all. I'm not imply anyone here is that type of course and I'd think it safe to assume that all SS members have more talent and professionalism than that.
However, does buying something from this type of person really help the industry ? Should we give that guy an obligatory $15 because he's out there shooting ?
Or is that guy actually part of whats killing our industry ? Maybe the season before there was a really good shooter, years of experience, long fast glass, beautiful prints, you name it.
But that shooter wanted a fair price for his time and images. He was doing okay, maybe facing some declining sales due to the economy but then comes GWC/Sports photo business who looked up his prices and cut them in half.
Instead of a $25 8x10 GWC said he'll give you a disk of all the images he shoots for just $25.
Wouldn't buying something just to buy something from whomever is shooting it further hurt this industry and the devaluation of quality images ?
Shouldn't we vote instead with our dollars on a quality product and not let every hack with a camera think this business is just easy money, quality be damned ?
Seems to me that in some cases NOT BUYING something is actually the best thing people who actually care about not only this industry but quality photography in general could do. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 5:33 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> ---->> I was expecting a thread about interoffice relationships.---
Andrew, I first thought it would be about walking in front of other photographers and blocking their shot.
Gerry, I wish I had thought of that. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 5:49 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> to me, the FIRST way to show RESPECT for a fellow shooter and how you will get my respect, is a simple word:
"HI"
Another-don't jump in front of me when I am shooting. I love the guys that tower over me and ALWAYS feel the need to stand directly in front of me. Can you prove even more to me how insecure you really are?
I can't tell you how many times in my career I get THE LOOK but not even a simple hello. I'm a pretty shy gal, but I will always say hi to a fellow shooter, and extend my hand. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 8:07 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> Only time I am buying the photo is if I like the shot and can't do it myself. As a photographer that does teams and individuals, you need to just live with it.
Not wasting my hard earned money just to support you out of respect.. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 8:39 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> I have many images of my son taken by Clark Brooks hanging on my wall at home. I bought them because they are great captures of the moment. Period.
I quit buying the sports packages and school pictures of my daughter when the price and quality went in opposite directions.
Taking money out of my pocket to pay another guy with the hope that he takes money out of his to may me reminds me of the holiday gift exchange at my parents - here, let me buy a $25 gift card for my kid to give his cousin so that my sister can buy a $25 gift card for her kid to give mine. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 9:40 PM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> Hi Debra. |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 9:55 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> Hi George
that made me laugh :) |
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Osamu Chiba, Photographer
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 11:27 PM on 09.21.10 |
->> Earlier this year I paid for this pic from fellow SS member Jason Zindroski:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/funpix_view.html?id=9150
simply because I liked it a lot. Supporting the industry was not in my mind. When it comes to mtn bike racing (cross country type, specifically), I would rather participate than shoot. And obviously I can't shoot while I am racing.
Oh, and hi Debra ;-)
O |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 11:45 PM on 09.21.10 |
| ->> I'd like to know what exactly the snide comments were. Sam is usually a voice of reason on here. |
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Eric Francis, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | United States | Posted: 12:29 AM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> I wonder how many auto mechanics pay someone else to change the oil in their car? |
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Greg Bartram, Photographer
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Dublin | OH | | Posted: 1:15 AM on 09.22.10 |
->> Sam, with all due respect, I have two sons, and I own a 400 2.8. These things dovetail gloriously with crosspurpose.
I never talk the league-sponsored folks down, but I also don't feel that, if I shoot something a parent wants, that I'm damaging the industry because I give my friend/teammate-parent a picture.
"I got a great shot of your son making that killer save last week. Here's the file, and please ask him to keep making saves like that."
Having said that, I only shoot ONE game a season of my older son's team, because I want to watch him play. The younger one? Well, I coach his team. Can't really shoot 'em, and my wife doesn't want to lift 'that stuff'. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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| | | Posted: 8:32 AM on 09.22.10 |
->> When my daughter played soccer I usually shot her myself. It was not that I was out to screw the local league shooter ... and not that I thought his base package of $35 was over priced (and it was over priced) ... but it was because the action photos were horrible.
I bought a T&I photo because I know my Mom likes those photos, but the actions photos were horrible. The four photogs from the company were all using 28-200 lenses (so 320 on the long end with a 1.6x crop), so at best you're looking at a loose photo shot at f5.6. Since the shooters didn't move and waited for the kids to come to them, every photo of my daughter was terrible since she played goalie. The crops were significant, peak action was almost non-existant.
The league shooter did have a problem with me being on the sidelines with a 400f2.8 & 1.4x and a 1D series body ... he told me that it made his photographers look amateurish on the side-lines. I didn't reply and just kept shooting my daughter and shooting my daughters best friend as they had fun playing.
Its my kid, I have the right to shoot them ... and I do not want to subsidize a company that produces a poor quality product. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 9:01 AM on 09.22.10 |
->> Obviously I am in the minority here on this thread, but that is how I really feel about it. My thoughts were not about money, but a way to show a modicum of respect. I now know not to ask to be treated by members of our community the way I treated others. I will keep buying from other shooters when the occassion occurs, which is not a weekly or even quarterly thing. And I always say hello and talk some shoppe, if it is not interferring with the shoot.
Keep in mind I an not talking about money here. The snide comments are what got my panties in a bunch here. If the other "pro shooters" had come up and said hi, like mentioned above, that would have been cool. But the comments I am getting lately are not reflective of how I treat others in our business. I am not a hack. I am not producing crap. If your local guy is doing that, do not buy anything! I have lost whole leagues to GWC's, and gotten the league back the next season on quality and dependability.
I am not asking for a living, just a little respect for doing a job well done from people who know how hard it is out here. Sorry I can not express my thoughts clearly on this forum. I should have titled the thread;"Do not hurt Sam's feelings with useless comments." |
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Chip Litherland, Photographer
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Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 9:55 AM on 09.22.10 |
->> Sam,
I have no idea about the inner-workings of your business in your local market, but I think a better approach to this might have been to be the bigger dude about it and -gasp- give them your product for free.
Explanation. If they are other shooters in your market and you all know each other and compete with each other, why not just throw them a print or two of their kid? You never know where that act of sincerity might help down the road....who knows, maybe one of those other guys backs out of the business leaving a contract up for grabs. Who do you think he's going to recommend? The guy who demanded a 5x7 purchase on a public forum or the guy who hooked him up with a print out of the blue? Competition or not, you never know where this thread might come back to bite you.
Again, I have no idea of how it works with event shooters, but I know in photojournalism and wedding work, we print swap all the time. We help each other out for the better good. Same thing with vendors. In the end, there might be some money to be made, but demanding it from another shooter is just bad form.
Just a thought.
Chip |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 10:17 AM on 09.22.10 |
->> Sam, as I said in my original post, they should keep their thoughts to themselves and let you do your job -- unless they think they see you doing something offensive.
Not that this is your case as a league shooter, just an example: when I see someone who obviously doesn't belong on a pro sideline I don't say anything to them because it is the team that is letting them be there and I have to do my job -- even if they are blocking me or acting unprofessionally (like cheering). If they say hello I will say hello back but that is all I'll offer. If there is a pro I know and they need help with something I'll do all I can to help them out.
As for league shooters like yourself. I'll prefer to shoot my own pictures but see no reason to offer up any derogatory remarks. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 10:31 AM on 09.22.10 |
->> So am I the only one a little baffled by the whole 'other photographers are rude to me if they don't come talk shop with me' posts?
I'm sorry, I guess I'm guilty of being rude then. I don't shoot youth sports but you can rest assured that if you see me at an event, any event, with an SLR in my hand, then I'm working. A client is paying me to do my job. It's how I make a living and the last thing I want to do is get into a 45 minute conversation about megapixels and, in doing so, neglect my client.
I'm really a friendly person, but I've run into far too many 'photographers' at events that just want to chat about what cameras they have, what cameras their friends have and what cameras they want to buy. They just don't alway *get* that I'm not there to socialize and sometimes it's hard to shake them.
It's not a mater of being elitist or rude, but if I only smile and nod my head when we make eye-contact that may just be a sign that I'm on a deadline or I need to concentrate. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 10:45 AM on 09.22.10 |
->> Screwing other photographers only starts if you're also shooting other people's kids.
--Mark |
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Blaine McCartney, Photographer
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Sheridan | WY | USA | Posted: 11:36 AM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Doesn't hurt to look does it? That said, it has to be a REALLY good shot for me to buy from a competitor. But that's just my $2.79 worth in gas. |
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Jason Jump, Photographer
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Humble | TX | USA | Posted: 11:42 AM on 09.22.10 |
->> Sam you can always work with the league and have a basic package fixed into the league fee. That's what one league down here does. I wasn't very happy about it, but most parents probably didn't think anything of it.
It wasn't that I wasn't happy because I could do it myself, but because the photos were HORRIBLE. So I didn't have the choice of whether I wanted to purchase one or not. Well I guess I could have not let me son play, but that was the only option. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:48 AM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Brian, I am SO with you. I'm sure several folks at the Duke-Alabama game on Saturday thought I was an ass....I have a tendency not to really speak with people who want to be "gear heads" when I'm covering an assignment. That combined with getting clobbered by the cymbals before the game even started (I had to have my arm bandaged because it sliced me above the elbow) put me in a pretty rotten mood. but I still don't have time to chit chat on the sidelines except maybe during a timeout or something. it seems there are far too many people at games who just want to talk about gear and such because they AREN'T really working. so since I am and I need to concentrate I come off as an ass? sorry, but doing my job is way more important than yacking it up and being buddy buddy. |
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Walt Middleton, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 12:08 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> My 2 cents... ok, maybe just one cent today.
If the work is worth it then yes I would buy from another photographer. However, I need to admit that I'm that guy that will buy just a team or group shot. I have yet to meet anyone localy that shoots these T&I shots that does anything special or merits me purchasing anything from them. In fact quite the opposite, I'm usually offended by how poorly some of these "shoots" are done. The only reason I ever buy a team or group shot is that I would find it in really bad tast if I asked to take a team shot of everybody when someone else was taking the "official team photo" as well. So, I leave it alone, don't bad mouth the poor quality and lack of skill and purchase just the team photo... |
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Gerry Melendez, Photographer
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Columbia | SC | USA | Posted: 12:23 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Chuck, you're so rude man! I love telling folks how I can shoot the moon with my lens. |
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Jeremy Harmon, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 1:00 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Anybody else find it ironic that in a thread titled "Do not screw other photographers" the original poster kind of screwed himself?
Just sayin'. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 2:28 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> In my experience, I usually "try" to get the league on the same page with me as far as "parents shouldn't be allowed on the sidelines if you want me to do this and expect to sell anything" and "no parents are allowed behind with the P&S snapping pics of little Johnny after I dealt with him not knowing his right from his left and finally getting him posed when T&I is done outdoors" - but if the league doesn't enforce the "rule", I just remind them of our earlier discussions and try to remedy the situation. Those are probably my biggest pet peeves with youth sports.
Regarding buying from another pro or anyone else for that matter. I have a 400 but it doesn't mean I haven't bought from another local pro simply because he's competition. It was a good picture. So I agree with those who say it all comes down to whether the SHOT is something worth buying. I don't feel a responsibility to buy from him although I wouldn't invade his "turf" and I'd let him do his job.
And when I first started out, a local "pro" was nice enough to help me during several high school football games with some settings advice, etc. I basically would ask him something different each week. He didn't have to help me, but the fact that he did left an impression. BUT, then again... I knew that he had a job to do and didn't follow him around. I tried to catch him BEFORE the game out of respect. |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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| | | Posted: 2:37 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Jason,
So let me get this straight ... you have a deal with the league that says if I show up at my daughter's game, or sons' game, I am not allowed to shoot my kids?
All the fields in my town are public fields, I'd love to know how you'd have me removed from the sidelines of a public field during a game my kid is playing in. It shouldn't matter if I am using my Canon G11 or 5D Mk II with 120-300f2.8 w/2X ... since you mention parents with a P&S.
Additionally ... what action can the league take? You pack up and leave?
I am genuinely curious. |
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Jeremy Harmon, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 2:38 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> "parents shouldn't be allowed on the sidelines if you want me to do this and expect to sell anything"
If somebody, whether a league or event guy, tried to tell me I couldn't take a photo of my daughter, especially in a public space, I would do it anyway. |
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Paul Alesse, Photographer
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Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 3:01 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> If you think this thread got to 50 quickly, wait till you see how quick it hits 50 in the sequel, now that the whole public property/private property can of worms has been opened. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 3:03 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> That's not really what I meant.
If you sat down with a league and they agreed to have you do their T&I shots, I mention that - during the day set aside - Parents shouldn't be permitted to stand behind me taking pictures themselves when they have not bought a package. There is a league revenue share, so it's also counter-productive to them anyhow.
It's a pet-peeve (something I would love to see not happen), but I'm realistic... they probably weren't going to buy a package anyway. It can be frustrating when you wheel your equipment in and this happens when these are literally just parents who want the posed shot and, IMO "poach" the work you do on a day like that.
As far as the sidelines, maybe it's not that way other places but I'm not referring to soccer, baseball where the field is pretty much an open space. I'm talking about a football game in a stadium where seating is in the stands.
As a league, once you let one parent out of the stands to roam the sidelines, isn't that creating a monster you couldn't control? Pretty soon, everyone will want to watch from the field. Again, a stadium is what I am referring to. Not an open field where everyone just surrounds it.
Again, it's a pet-peeve in 'youth sports' - not something I get all worked up about.
The problem - and it's really the leagues - is if they view the selling of "action shots" as a revenue stream by promoting it. When they allow the parents on the sidelines, it dilutes that idea.
If it does happen, I'm not an idiot. Why in the world would I say something to the parent? I'd ask if that was okay with the league and go from there.
It also is one of those things that you just have to accept. You either adapt or die. If you aren't/can't make $$ doing something, you find something else.
It's hard to believe that the two points I just referenced aren't or wouldn't aggravate someone who was trying to shoot in those conditions. ESPECIALLY the over-the-shoulder shooting of T&I if it has to be on the field (again, field access unless its a coach or player, etc seems like a risk a league wouldn't want to take).
Just my opinion. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 3:49 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Honest question: Can someone tell me what the heck T&I actually is? I've been reading this board for years and I'm still clueless. Is it the little posed photo of a kid squatting down next to a soccer ball? Is that what people get so worked up about? |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 4:05 PM on 09.22.10 |
| ->> Team & Individual ... as in sportsmate collages |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 4:06 PM on 09.22.10 |
->> Oh, and for the record, if that IS what we're talking about then that's just absurd. My kid is six weeks old and when he does eventually play in some league I'm going to take photos from wherever I want, whenever I want and however I want and I don;t want to hear squat from some league photographer.
Come on. Seriously?
Event photographers have been coming on here for years complaining about loosing this "T&E" stuff and I've always assumed it was something significant.
This is a photojournalism and sports photography message board. Taking snap shots of kids squatting next to soccer balls and putting some cheesy template around it is not exactly sports photography. No offense to the people who do i t (there may be money in it for all I know) but really? Is that what I've been reading about people so fiercely defending for all these years? Really? |
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