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more questionable journalism in NE Ohio
John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 12:42 PM on 09.05.10 |
->> A little background - the W6 area of Cleveland has a number of bars and nightclubs. Over the last year or so there have been a number of problems. Most are not inside the clubs or with club visitors - they're with the vast number of youths that hang out outside the clubs - on the streets, parking lots etc. And the problems that result. Here is the first story about an incident that occured in one of the clubs:
story 1 :http://tinyurl.com/2vuhka8
not too bad. Now comes one of the next stories - it appeared in the NEWS section online - although the author later admits it's an opinion piece:
story 2: http://tinyurl.com/3ybgdoz
Here's where the questionable journalism comes into play. There's a very important question here as I'm sure most here will agree - did police erase video. Sadly, the question is ultimately trampled because of the very poor, biased journalism in my opinion. Rather than state what happened and raise the question the "journalist" relies on race-bating and draws her own conclusion by talking to one side only and a local politician who is a friend of one of the people arrested. Instead of waiting for a day or two to find other video or unbiased witness statements.
Then, of course, other video does show up - here's that story. Can't address whether police erased the phone video or not, but does put the rest of the young men's stories in a bad light:
story 3: http://tinyurl.com/33cqv83
There are a number of other related stories but this gives you the general idea.
It's sad that so-called 'journalists' are more interested in writing sensational stories. Because of their sensationalism and bias, their credibility takes a big hit - as does the paper's. So the important question of what, if anything, happened to the supposed cell-phone video is somewhat lost. Had the 'journalist' kept to facts and kept un-biased I think more people would be talking about that important issue rather than the bias of the 'journalist' and the paper. Now, however, the damage has been done and I fear the opportunity lost. We'll have to see. Since the sensationalism and race-bating for this story may go away in light of this video I doubt the paper will proceed on following that important aspect of the story - after all, it's not sensational enough. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:21 PM on 09.05.10 |
| ->> John, I hate to break it to you buddy but you're pretty far off base here. "the author later admits it's an opinion piece" dude, she's a COLUMNIST. that's what they write, it's their opinion. Columnists at every newspaper (and now tv) in the world write what they feel like. they use the "facts" even though they might not all be known, to the advantage of getting people to read their column. I actually don't know anyone who takes what a columnist writes as the gospel truth. Sensationalism? Yup...that's what a columnist does. they jump on any hot button issue to get readers to look at the paper. I thought the stories which were the reporting aspects were pretty straightforward and stuck to the facts at hand. The two guys involved in the altercation spun the story in their direction at first but when some more facts came to light (oh and a pesky video showing they weren't as passive as they said the first time) the story completely changed. they admitted they could have handled it better. just trying to figure out why you would impude the reputation of the newspaper like this. what's the deal? they throw your paper in the bushes one to many times? |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 8:04 PM on 09.05.10 |
| ->> Chuck it's like this - the columnist missed an opportunity to talk about an important issue - instead she not only played the race card she sought out only witnesses from one side (knowing the officers were not allowed to comment). All you have to do is look at the responses to the column. Of course the two guys spun the story their way - but the paper was a willing co-conspiritor. Now, how many people reading do you think care about whether the police deleted the video now? What should have been the focal point was lost. You may not like my take on it Chuck - but unlike the typical left/right wing columns that bring out fanatics on both sides I think you'll see my opinion of how the columnist and paper handled things is in the majority. Again, the book end stories I posted I agree - were pretty strait on - it's the middle story. If you think that's good newspaper, it's no wonder newspapers are going under left and right. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 8:17 PM on 09.05.10 |
| ->> Not to mention the whole "Boy who cried Wolf" syndrome. Now what happens with the next article the newspaper publishes under their news section (where her piece appeared) - crying racism? People are going to take it less seriously because her and the paper's credibility took a hit. So it not only loses an opportunity to address the possible video deletion it tarnishes their ability to address what could be real race issues in the future. Sorry if I think the paper should have a responsibility to not inflame race issues by posting irresponsible pieces like that. It makes matters worse. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:50 PM on 09.05.10 |
| ->> John, you continue to amaze me with your total lack of knowledge about the news business. seriously, have you never read a newspaper before? crying racism? the paper's credibility? the only thing I see or read in your comments is someone who is totally clueless about the way stories are reported and being able to understand those said stories. you are reading things into this stuff that just isn't there. again, I ask you....did the plain dealer diss you in some way...perhaps they turned you down for paper route? continually toss your paper in the bushes...I don't know dude...'boy who cried wolf"? that would be YOU. again, what part of SHE'S A COLUMNIST don't you still understand? the paper didn't take a hit. you are the only one taking a hit from writing silliness you obviously don't understand a thing about. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 9:12 AM on 09.06.10 |
->> Chuck - we'll have to agree to disagree. I might suggest you are clueless about the CUSTOMER of newspapers. Judging by the emails I've received from non-members I'm not alone. I might suggest that people in the newspaper business having lost touch with their customers is one of the big reasons they're in trouble.
It also speaks volumes that you simply try to make juevenille insults about me getting dissed by the paper. Again, the people that respond with 'huh' here don't seem to understand quite a few people share my opinion - as evidenced by the emails I received as well as the responses the column got. Sorry you don't get it Chuck. But then, that's the problem with people in the newspaper business. They don't get it - as evidenced by how poorly so many papers are doing. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 9:17 AM on 09.06.10 |
| ->> Oh, and Chuck - I used to read 2 newspapers a day. But I stopped about 3 years ago because the product they put out isn't worth a penny. Quite a few of my friends and co-workers are the same way. And when we discussed it on Friday - this type of dribble is a big reason why. Unfortunately for you and the rest of the newspaper industry, too many people on the inside have the same attitude you do - you know better than the customer. How's that thought process working out for the newspaper industry Chuck? |
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Angel Valentin, Photographer
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RIO GRANDE | PR | Puerto Rico | Posted: 9:56 AM on 09.06.10 |
| ->> :) Chuck |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:11 AM on 09.06.10 |
| ->> Juvenile insults? I was just trying to respond in terms I thought you might understand since your vast knowledge of why newspapers and their problems is nothing short of being on elementary school level. John, you continue to spout nonsense. Maybe you should quit while you are behind. Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of the news business knows that the readers have little or nothing to the revenue stream of newspapers. Circulation sales actually cost a newspaper money. It's ADVERTISING that makes the dough. Sure, circulation can drive advertising but in most single paper markets (as most are nowadays) advertising drops off due to the economy not circulation figures. plain and simple you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about. So I guess with your business logic the housing industry pissed off everyone and that's why it tanked? Same as the car dealerships? Hello, Earth to Germ....in case you didn't notice there has been a HUGE economic downturn.... I certainly hope your photo business doesn't rely on any print media outlets....because if I was thinking of hiring you I would certainly cross you off the list of GWC's I would consider....rule #1...don't hire people who piss all over your product. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 10:26 AM on 09.06.10 |
->> For the most part I'm with Chuck on this one. Sure, the columnist (yup, columnist - that means the piece likely will be opinionated) jumped to conclusions in her first article. Then she admitted it in the second one. That's what good columnists should do.
It really has nothing to do with the news reporting section of the paper. However, there are readers who, for whatever reason, will link the two together, no matter how much you tell them they're not. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 10:30 AM on 09.06.10 |
->> Ah Chuck. That's the beauty of this. I don't need your approval or the approval of anyone in the newspaper business. Now, I'll type slowly so you can keep up: I said - Customer. Can you say that boys and girls? CUSTOMER. You have readership, people doing advertisements and people buying/selling/want add type of work. As to my understanding and intelligence, Chuck, I'm smart enough to have a career in a field with plenty of jobs. I'm smart enough to have re-tooled so I can keep myself employed in this economic downturn.
I enjoy coming here because people like you amuse me Chuck. You don't get it. You ask why I have such a strong opinion? Because I used to be a customer. I'd prefer to be a customer again but I want a better product. I want to read columns by people like William Raspberry again. Or on the local level I used to enjoy Laura Ofobike of the Akron Beacon Journal (still writes there but the rest of the paper was no longer worth my subscription). On the sports side, Terry Pluto who used to write for the Journal and now writes for the PD: he gets it. These people all wrote with intelligence (and in case you're thinking of another insult my way Chuck - I'm not writing columns for a living - good for me).
So, the beauty of this all is Chuck. I don't have to worry about pissing on the industry - I'm a customer not an employee. But I would like a better product.
So, if it's all the same to you Chuck - I'll keep coming around and keep posting my opinion even if it's contrary to what you want to hear. Because I don't need your approval, I don't need your jobs. And, judging by the emails I get from non members they enjoy opinions contrary to those espoused by people in the newspaper business. Enjoy the rest of your holiday Chuck and I'll do the same. |
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Eric Seals, Photographer
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Detroit | MI | United States | Posted: 10:49 AM on 09.06.10 |
->> After reading the stories, the back and forth going on I had to check "Huh?" and wish where was a "Yawn" under This post is....
And it sounds like someone had their feelings hurt at some point when they found out their portfolio was tossed into the trash when trying to freelance for the Cleveland Plain Dealer or applying for a internship or job. Sorry dude, just calling it like I see it ;-)
You're getting crucified with this post and will continue to so your best to just tuck your tail between your legs and walk away
Eric |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 11:11 AM on 09.06.10 |
->> @Chuck: You're mostly correct, particularly about the expense side of the equation. But circulation numbers are important for sales. You can't sell a $10,000 ad in a newspaper that has a circulation of 500. To sell ANY kind of ad, you need to have a base level of circulation...tens of thousands...before you're going to sell ads that pay anything reasonable.
@John: The demise of print is too complicated to distill into a one-reason summary, particularly something as subjective and as general as "this type of dribble". The circulation drop is happening for a number of reasons.
Some people used to buy the newspaper because they wanted to see sports scores in the morning without sitting through a newscast on TV. Now you can get scores anytime, online, free. People used to live a more linear lifestyle where time and activities were compartmentalized and there was time in the morning or evening to read the headlines (don't bug Dad when he's reading the newspaper). Now people do multiple things in parallel and a big wad of paper that you have to sit down and thumb through doesn't fit that lifestyle. Here in Colorado, a lot of people are very aware of the environmental impact of things. Decimating a chunk of forest a day to print something that you read once and throw away doesn't sit well with those folks - even if the paper is recycled. That's another reason circulation is dropping.
On the revenue side, a BIG hit was the complete decimation of the classified ad business. It used to be newspapers could sell two or three lines of text on a page for $25. Think about how many of those lines you can fit on a page and then scale it to the four or five pages of classifieds you used to see. Huge revenue, every week, GONE...to ebay, craigslist and monster.com.
Did newspapers "miss the boat" with the Internet? Hard to say. The Internet transformation happened really fast by conventional standards, and the business model is completely different. Technically, it's trivial to take words and pictures produced for print and stuff them on a web site. The much, much more difficult problem is generating revenue that amounts to anything more than pocket change.
Paid circ online doesn't usually work for a number of reasons. No one has come up with a unified payment structure...if you want the NYT, you have to pay the NYT. Want the WSJ? You have to pay the WSJ. You go through 27 layers of signup and verification, and every other day someone hacks into someone's online payment system and steals credit card numbers. What's more - each outlet needs to charge several dollars a month just to make it make sense. Might work in smaller markets where there are no other choices, but difficult in most areas. It is understandable why people do not participate in such a fragmented and insecure system.
So how about making it with online advertising? Making money with advertising on an unconstrained resource like the Internet is tough. On a web site, you can always create more pages, more ad positions, more space. What's more, your competition can do the same. This makes the value of any one position much less valuable. Therefore to generate revenue, you need to generate a lot of impressions to make a decent amount of money each day...far more than a local or regional outlet can hope to generate.
Compare that to a front-page ad on the NYT print edition the day after elections, or the first commercial break in the Super Bowl on TV. You can sell the heck out of those positions because there is only one. Constrained resources create more value. QED.
There is absolutely no question that journalism is changing, in all areas, and in some cases indisputably for the worse. But the cause - and the solution - is far more complicated than one story, from one outlet, on one day. |
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Adam Vogler, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Kansas City | Mo. | USA | Posted: 11:32 AM on 09.06.10 |
->> I've read through this thread and the story's linked several times and as much as I know I'm going to regret it I can't help but add my $0.02.
I am so sick of people attacking those of us in the press for no other reason than their OPINION on how the world is doesn't match up with reality.
John, you are the one not getting it. You called out the ethics and professionalism of a newspaper's reporting because you don't agree with the OPINION of one of its columnists. Than you go on to spout off some 'customer knows best' nonsense.
Speaking for myself, I'm a journalist. My job is to tell the public what they NEED to know; not what they want to hear. I don't CARE what they want to hear.
You talk about the second piece being biased. Duh, as Chuck pointed out it's a column. Of course a column is BIASED. That's the point of having them. If you don't like the opinion of a columnist, write a letter to the editor and publisher, talk about how much of an idiot you think they are or Hell, here's a thought, don't read them but you don't attack the credibility of a newsroom over an opinion piece just because you don't agree with it.
Oh BTW, for someone who doesn't read the local news you sure seem to have a lot of knowledge of what they report. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 11:45 AM on 09.06.10 |
->> John,
You said, "As to my understanding and intelligence, Chuck, I'm smart enough to have a career in a field with plenty of jobs. I'm smart enough to have re-tooled so I can keep myself employed in this economic downturn."
So John, I wonder what kind of a world we'd live in if we were all as "smart" as you and none of us were stupid enough to be in the journalism field? I know I don't want to live in a world where there are no journalists or where the few journalists that remain get their marching orders from reader polls... it'd be wall-to-wall "news" of celebrity gossip just for the sake of web "hits".
I'm a journalist. I will ALWAYS be a journalist because I see it as my roll in society - my responsibility. I'm not an idiot for being a journalist instead of going into whatever field you went into (yet you still come here to tell us how stupid we are). I love what I do, I make a great living and I know that I contribute something very important, so you'll just have to forgive me if I'm a bit turned off by someone with such little apparent respect for what we do, coming here and treating us like we're not as smart as you.
If we're that stupid, please feel free to join the message board over at fredmiranda where you're sure to find a lot more smart, part-timers like yourself.
-Brian Blanco |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 12:01 PM on 09.06.10 |
| ->> ... oh, and for the record. My last sentence wasn't a slam against part-time shooters. One of the most dedicated and talented photojournalists in my market is a full-time school teacher when he's not shooting... but Mike Carlson has never felt the need to knock on my door to tell me I'm not as smart has he is. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 12:02 PM on 09.06.10 |
->> John, you've certainly got the right to your opinion (and also post it here if you so choose) but I've got to say, is publicly calling into question the reputation of the largest daily in your area, followed up by posting about how other newspapers in the area also lack any value really a smart move for a freelancer these days ?
A thread like this is calling your own reputation into far more question than the writer of the opinion column that started it all.
No one reading this thread is going to cancel their subscription or change their views on the industry because of your views. Your not addressing the end consumer here, your instead preaching to the choir.
If you don't like newspapers, that's your opinion and choice. I don't have a subscription either for what its worth. To go on a continued rant like you are though is going to make any potential client/employer give pause if they want that type of person working for them, and I'm not speaking only about the newspaper industry. |
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Eric Seals, Photographer
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Detroit | MI | United States | Posted: 2:36 PM on 09.06.10 |
->> John, I told you your crucifixion was coming from this post you started. Your better off begging and pleading for sportsshooter to take this down and save you from further embarrassment.
Jeff, Brian, David and Adam all made some very excellent points to you especially Jeff Mills and his comment...
"John, you've certainly got the right to your opinion (and also post it here if you so choose) but I've got to say, is publicly calling into question the reputation of the largest daily in your area, followed up by posting about how other newspapers in the area also lack any value really a smart move for a freelancer these days?"
You've been served a plate full of shame with some "foot in mouth" pie for dessert
Eric |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 5:51 PM on 09.06.10 |
->> Chuck,
Although columnists might state their opinions, they are also journalists. Things stated as facts within a column are (supposed to be) held to the same standards as straight news stories. A Washington Post sports columnist was recently suspended for a tweet he posted that he admittedly fabricated.
--Mark |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 6:50 PM on 09.06.10 |
->> Man, it's stuff like this that makes me miss the old Geraldo show. I mean, all this "discussion" needs are a couple of skinheads and some good chair throwing.
"So give me a ... stage / Where this bull here can rage / And though I could fight / I'd much rather recite / ... that's entertainment." |
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Chris Large, Photographer
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 7:17 AM on 09.08.10 |
->> I haven't been insulted in a while, so I thought I would post here and pretend they were intended for me.
But yeah...they're both right. Columnists regularly toss aside the pretense of journalistic neutrality. Doesn't make it right. |
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Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 10:32 AM on 09.08.10 |
->> Chuck - tossing aside journalistic neutrality and expressing an opinion on a topic is basically what makes one a columnist.
However, as Mark L stated, columnists are still expected to be factual. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 12:10 PM on 09.08.10 |
->> You know, maybe it's just coming from a writing background and having a lot of writer friends (a couple of whom do pen columns), but maybe we should be a little more judicious with our comments before throwing all columnists (or at least the majority) under the proverbial bus.
Yes, there are columnists who basically live to be incendiary and polarizing and all that good stuff -- behaving in any manner that gets them attention, whether good or bad. But hey, there are plenty (a lot more, I think) who combine journalistic research, thoughtful evaluation, sometimes deep introspection and usually some great writing to pen their pieces.
I mean we could make the same assumptions about shooters, no? Plenty of talented folks out there, and plenty of hacks as well.
Just saying.
Cheers,
- gerry - |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 1:29 PM on 09.08.10 |
->> Gerry,
For my part - it was never my intention to portray all columnists in a bad light. Just this instance of this particular writer.
Also of note: Bradley - you are correct in your interpretation of one of my issues. I will state further that by the time you looked at the story it had been re-located. On Thursday, if you linked to the story from the main PD page the breadcrumbs had the story under NEWS (so not even 'Real Time News' but 'News'). Which is one of the reasons I had so much issue with it (and why I brought up the fact in my previous posts that it was under the NEWS category).
I have to agree with one of the emails I received from non-members: some journalists here seem to follow the police "thin blue line" approach - defend one of their own at all costs and attack anyone who suggests a journalist could be at fault.
So, all that aside, Gerry - what's your opinion of "story 2" above - is it good journalism? And, if it appeared under the "News" category on the website originally, does that have any bearing? |
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John Green, Photographer, Photo Editor
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BAY AREA | CA | | Posted: 1:50 PM on 09.08.10 |
| ->> I just love this thread....makes me feel all warm and fuzzy |
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Bryan Littel, Photographer
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Oaklyn | NJ | USA | Posted: 3:28 PM on 09.08.10 |
->> It's not great journalism, but working with what the alleged victims claimed versus the police report (and nothing additional from a sergeant, apparently), there's not a whole lot else you can get. You can try going up the chain of command to get a comment or more info, but that doesn't always work - if what she was told by the victims is true, it's a huge deal, so it's understandable they'd run it ASAP.
Unfortunately, it wasn't the truth (or the complete truth).
That said, John, most major papers have a news columnists. Some of 'em - the biggies in LA and Chicago and New York - usually have a half dozen or so. Their stuff typically appears in the news section of the paper (or one of the news sections - news, metro, etc.). Pushing this under the header of "news" isn't anything atypical or surprising.
Also, for what it's worth, RTN is how Advance websites push hot-button content to the front of their websites - doesn't matter if it's straight news, features, columns, sports, it gets tagged with RTN to get highlighted. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 12:02 PM on 09.09.10 |
| ->> nice thread. if the idea here was to have a bunch of professional photojournalists look like morons, i think this was a success. |
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