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Why email anything at all?
Willis Glassgow, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Florence | SC | USA | Posted: 4:03 PM on 08.25.10 |
->> I received this email from someone who obviously didn't like the rate I was paying for a game. They foolishly think that I am someone of importance, because they did not put their full name, no phone number and fake email address......LOL....Seriously though.... Why send an email at all?????.....If someone is insulted by the rate I can pay, then sure state your case in an email to me like a grown up. Case closed. Sorry folks for this rant, but its been a tough week....LOL.
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Message from: michael
michael's email address: noway@yahoo.com
michael's phone number: n/a
Message from michael:
would not even rent you my 300mm 2.8 lens for that rate!!!!
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Sent from IP Address: 84.159.161.32
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SportsShooter.com
http://www.sportsshooter.com |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 5:25 PM on 08.25.10 |
->> Will,
I agree man, people should sign their names to emails like that. It's tacky.
However, since you brought it up.
In your two current classified listings you're seeking shooters to cover Div 1 football games (and a soccer game) for a "flat rate" of "$125.00-150.00" based upon the shooter's experience and distance they have to drive to the stadium.
We all know that between drive time, getting to the stadium early, shooting the actual game and any post-game, editing and transmitting then driving home and then archiving at home or at the office, that shooter is looking at a MINIMUM 8 hour day.
Even at your highest rate they'd be bringing in $18.75 an hour that day.
Add to that the fact that they have to use, and subject to possible abuse and inclimate weather their own:
3 pro-level bodies
At LEAST a 300mm f/2.8 (as noted in your add),
A 70-200mm f/2.8
A 16-35mm f/2.8,
Rain gear for all of the above
CF cards
At least one laptop
Insurance
A monopod
A Think Tank roller
HD space for archiving
For a grand total of somewhere in the ballpark of $20,000.00
I'd have to agree with the sentiment of the anonymous emailer... while disagreeing with his/her tact.
Respectfully signed,
Brian Blanco
PS: And sadly, your email is likely full of people chomping at the bit to shoot those Div. 1 games for that rate. |
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Bradley Wakoff, Photographer
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Fort Collins | CO | USA | Posted: 6:59 PM on 08.25.10 |
->> I'll go to bat for Willis, here. He and I met on the sidelines of game a few years ago and last year I was on his list of potential shooters in my area, but when he called with last minute gig I was in bed sick as a dog and didn't even get the message for three days. (Sorry I never called ya back, Willis!) Long story short, other than some networking-type conversations and emails, we have no business relationship.
Back on point: we discussed potentially shooting 3 or 4 specific schools, all within 30 miles of my house, all of which I'd covered before and knew the logistics involved. Basically I'd have been looking at about a 6 hour commitment, including travel. These were not the big name D1 schools - not much glamour or money involved. (And at one of them remarkably uncrowded sidelines!) Willis runs a small agency; clients call him, he finds local shooters. Naturally those shooters get less take-home pay than if they'd done their own legwork.
Willis is a straight-up guy with a niche in an underserved market and he's been posting ads like these here on SS at the beginning of every college football season (and other sports too if I recall correctly) for as long as I can remember - he's legit and reputable. It's not high dollar work, and he's got a business to run too. If the rate he's offering doesn't meet your cost of doing business, look elsewhere. For myself, the type of work we discussed would have been worth my while. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 7:19 AM on 08.26.10 |
->> Bradley,
You said, "Willis runs a small agency; clients call him, he finds local shooters. Naturally those shooters get less take-home pay than if they'd done their own legwork." and "It's not high dollar work, and he's got a business to run too."
With all due respect to Willis, does it not stand to reason that those clients that are calling him and booking the assignment for his prepackaged rate would, but for his 'small agency', be finding their own local shooters who could then negotiate their own rates and terms and pocket 100% of their hard work?
Your post has helped to illustrate my point. When someone outside of your market goes ahead of you and negotiates a discount rate for games covered in your market then you're never going to get that call directly. These 'small agencies' can offer these rates because they know:
1) That they won't have to shoot it themselves, be away from their family and subject their own equipment to potential damage.
and
2) That they can agree (in YOUR market) to almost any rate because they know they can find a dozen shooters in any market who will shoot it for little more than the credential and the "opportunity" and all they have to do is take a percentage. If all someone wants is a credential then your post makes perfect sense, but I'm baffled at the fact that at this point 5 people have marked it "Informative" because, due respect, anybody who thinks they're making a living shooting $125.00 games hasn't done the math.
This is NOT a personal attack on Willis, or you, at all. But I see this kind of stuff every day and it erodes away at the industry. |
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Jack McCoy, Photographer
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Baldwin | NY | USA | Posted: 8:07 AM on 08.26.10 |
->> Was debating whether or not to add anything here...I have talked to Willis on two separate occasions once because he worked in Austria and learned that he spoke German (as I was fascinated by that since I lived in Germany for ten years) and the second was to respond to shoot a football game here on LI about an hour away from my house (yes you can drive over an hour on Long Island and actually not get to the end). I told him I'd be willing to do it for $150 if I could shoot only the first half. he informed me I needed to stay for entire game and I respectfully declined. Now that said it was to low of pay for me but I had no problem with his posting his jobs which he has done for years nor did I feel compelled to belittle him about his pay rate.
I don't know the man at all, his business or what he profits from these games. Why aren't schools looking for local shooters themselves, I believe one of the posts asked...simple, people are lazy don't want to look for new talent and don't like change...thats'a a generalization and not always true but it is in a lot of instances.
Willis, not even sure if you remember talking to me on these two occasions I described but in my personal opinion people.... apply to the jobs or don't. |
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Andrew Brosig, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Killeen | TX | United States | Posted: 8:17 AM on 08.26.10 |
->> Or, get out and hustle and look for the local market jobs yourself, rather than spending time talking about a person who did it.
I agree, the e-mail that started this discussion was inappropriate. But that doesn't change the base message. I don't know Willis either, and I did see his advert. I thought, that's a low rate. I probably wouldn't bite. But that doesn't mean he's not perfectly within his rights to post the ad and hire the photogs. He's done the legwork, the same as any shooter in a smaller local market could do. |
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Willis Glassgow, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Florence | SC | USA | Posted: 8:57 AM on 08.26.10 |
->> Brian,
How many games/events to shoot or cover per year?....how many nights are you away from you family?...I can answer those questions on my behalf.
For the past 10 years of covering college sports, I have averaged over 200 games per season. One year, I shot over 300 games. I drive 50,000 miles per year and spend numerous days and nights away from my family. I miss countless sporting events that my own kids participate in. During the season, I work for literally months on end WITHOUT a day off. Last year I work 94 straight days without a day off. WEEKENDS????.....What in the hell is a weekend?.....I'm happy to get a Sunday off, let alone a whole weekend. So to insinuate that I am an outsider and don't know or understand the market is a total insult to me and to what I have done. I'm not undercutting you and anyone else in the market. Can one make a living earning $125 per game. No, of course not. But that's what the market pays. I don't set the market rate, I have to go by it just like anyone else. Do you know what the athletic budget is for the University of South Florida?.....You shoot USF games don't you?.....How about Wofford College, or better yet, Newberry College and Presbyterian College. Even better than those....Freed-Hardeman University of the William Jewell College?.....These are all clients of ours. What do you suggest the rate should be?.....$500 per game, $600? how bout $700 per game?.... Let's make it an even $1000 per game. Is that what you think we charge these schools? Do you think I have to power to create the market value for shooting college sporting events. You honestly don't think that the small colleges like the ones I mentioned above can afford to pay that much to have a game covered?...Many of these schools have absolutely NO photo budget at all. $0 for the ENTIRE year!!!! Many of these small schools have to fund raise just to travel by bus across the state. So I price accordingly and then attempt to find a photographer that is not only good, but who can and will work for that price. If no one comes forward, then we don't shoot it the game, and the client is without photos from that particular game. WHY?.....Because, there is no market for them many times. Do you know how many times I am covering a game and I am the ONLY photog on the sidelines or baseline?.....Most of the time. So in a sense, we create work where there was none before. So don't criticize me for cheating the market and taking advantage of hapless photogs who either ignorant or desperate for work. That does NOT happen.
A few years back, a photographer on Sports Shooter likened a Media Guide of a college to that of a Annual Report of a corporation. WHAT?!?!?!.... Are you kidding me?....That's like comparing the local grocery store to Wal-Mart. Its ridiculous. Does anyone know how many universities athletic departments actually made a profit in 2009? Look it up, and please correct me if I am wrong folks. (I honestly mean that) In 2003 there were 40 universities that earned a profit, in 2007 there were 19. In 2009 15 universities that earned a profit. That's out of over 1400 colleges boys and girls. And BTW... Our clients were not any of the schools that earned a profit.
Do we charge all of our clients the same? Of course not. That would be moronic. Some schools we charge $100 depending on the situation (it is rare) and sometimes we charge as much as $400 (even more rare). When we charge more, we also pay more to the photog. Ask around and see if I am telling the truth.
I will apologize in advance for this rant. This will be the first time in 8 years participating in this forum that I have let loose on this board. I hope you all will understand.
Willis Glassgow
WG Sports Photos |
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Jason Jump, Photographer
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Humble | TX | USA | Posted: 8:59 AM on 08.26.10 |
->> As a small business owner myself I would be annoyed by that email as well. As said if you don't like it click on the next ad and move on with your day.
What purpose does it serve to send such an email. It makes you look like a fool, and he's not going to change his pay rate because of some idiotic email like that.
Look folks not everyone has deep pockets to pay. I know I certainly don't. That's why our photographers share in the risk and the reward. Everyone's on the same playing field.
It doesn't work for some, but others like it for various reasons.
And it's VERY annoying to receive emails like the one above when the emailer has no clue why the person has come up with the pay rate or pay model they are griping about. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 10:44 AM on 08.26.10 |
->> Willis,
You needn't apologize for your "rant". If I thought I was being attacked I'd "rant" back too. I wasn't attacking you, but rather pointing out the problem with the practice. I'm sorry if you, very understandably, take offense to that. I never meant to offend you and I'm certain you're a good guy doing the best you can and working hard.
But, if you can point to the part of my post(s) where I said something that was not accurate please let me know. I understand budgets are tight at universities but that doesn't mean that I'll ever lower my rate to a rate that actually ends up costing me money just for the 'coolness', of shooting on the sidelines. I quote them a reasonable rate or I walk away.
And yes, I do in fact know what the University of South Florida pays and I therefore choose not to shoot sports for them and only shoot commercial work for them... which I run through PhotoQuote, consult with my local shooters and bid accordingly for... or I walk away.
Again, respectfully,
Brian Blanco |
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Jesse Piecuch, Photographer
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Warren | OH | United States | Posted: 11:24 AM on 08.26.10 |
| ->> I guess this makes me the scum of the photographic community because I'm more then willing to shoot a football game for $150. Of course I'm the only one in my family who hasn't been laid off. So I guess when that $150 would help out immensely (to do what I love to do anyways) I need to apologize for helping to drive the market down. To top it off, I will definitely rent you my 300 for the night to shoot a game for $150! My point is everyone's situation is different. If you don't like what someone is willing to pay go look for work elsewhere. |
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Eric Francis, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | United States | Posted: 11:52 AM on 08.26.10 |
->> Willis,
My answer to the email would have been... "that's ok, I can rent a 300/2.8 at my local photo store for $50/day. Thanks for your interest" |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 2:07 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> Eric I'll one up that...... You can rent a 300 2.8 from Calumet on a Friday, use it for the Friday night game, all day Saturday and Sunday and have it back on the counter by noon Monday for that same $50...
So for $50 you get a hunk of glass that lets you shoot 1 high school game, a college game, and even a pro game! Damn Calumet !!!!!! They going to run Nikon and Canon out of business and ruin sales of long glass if they keep that up.
@Brian
I could be very wrong and maybe Mark will jump in on this ONE point but
......consult with my local shooters and bid accordingly for.....
Sounds DANGEROUSLY close to price fixing. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 2:17 PM on 08.26.10 |
| ->> Uh no Eric, but thanks. I have a full-time attorney (my father) but I appreciate the help. I often ask a couple of local shooters for a ballpark on pricing if I'm questioning myself or PhotoQuote on a bid. I do not, have not, and never will try to FIX prices through collusion. Thanks for suggesting, in a public forum, that I'm "DANGEROUSLY" close to being a criminal though. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 2:23 PM on 08.26.10 |
| ->> Oh and Eric for the record, I'd never consult with someone bidding on the same gig |
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 2:35 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> The email was in bad taste without a doubt. Be a man/women and sign your shit.
I believe I worked for Willis at one point last year. I covered a JC Bowl game played at Rio Tinto Stadium which was like 3 miles from my house. The pay was 150 for the game. I spent 3 or 4 hours shooting the game, then an hour picking out the photos and captioning for the local paper in Grand Rapids that requested the coverage to Willis.
Payment was on time and Willis was a pleasure to work with.
It was an extra 150 dollars that I didn't have and it was on a day that I had nothing else planned. |
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Ryan Coleman, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Woodbury | MN | USA | Posted: 2:36 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> I'd love to be in a position to pay my photographers per game - trying to get there with legal photo sales to parents and players - $150 to trickle down is almost fair; I charge schools $250 for the event if hey request a photographer 100% of that goes to the photographer - but not before the school pays me either via Paypal, CC or check.
That said, we pay when you sell. If there's a small school (NCAA Div III) near you and you want to shoot for d3photography.com, drop me a line. I'll be more than happy to discuss it with you. *Note: Some schools don't allow sales from their home events, so not all schools are accepting of a photographer from d3photography.com there.* |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:55 PM on 08.26.10 |
| ->> This is such a circuitous argument...probably always will be. The AP (as far as I've heard) pays about the same amount to cover a local college football or basketball game as they did 20 years ago. Unfortunately this is nobody's fault but our own. Although the investment to cover ANY event on deadline now exceeds, what would be a conservative amount of over $20,000 when you factor in just the gear....we as photographers are to blame. I'm not talking about the big time folks who always had their fees and price range set for serious profit. I'm talking about lots of newspaper shooters such as myself, who thought, "Hey, $150-$200 to cover a game I want to be at anyway is a good deal." Digital comes along, the equipment gets VERY expensive and you have to have a computer...well again, you work for a newspaper you usually have a deal where you can use company equipment (because the pay is so abysmal) and that sum seems to still be a good deal. Now digital becomes common. Everybody and their pet monkey think they are photographers..."Hey lookkee lookee! I have a digital camera and a sideline pass! I'm a sports photographer!!" Now the market changes....for the worse...prices actually start dropping because every tom, dick and harriet will shoot a game because (pick a quote) "I love photograhy" "I love sports" "I love being on the sidelines" etc, etc, etc...the horse is not only out of the barn, it's down the field and in the next state. so many people are used to getting photos for free or trading them for a press pass and now sadly it's probably never going to change. you actually can't blame this on any on person. it's been a team effort by all of us. and now it's seeping into the wedding photography market. look at craig's list and see some of the ads by these "weekend photo warriors". willis and brian are both good guys. as I said, the blame is on all of us. peace out. |
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Brad Moore, Photographer, Assistant
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Weston | MA | USA | Posted: 3:18 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> I completely understand where Willis is coming from. I shoot for a DIII school and in my area they just don't have photography budgets of more than perhaps a few hundred bucks a year, and that is supposed to cover all sports. Many of the images used in brochures, flyers, and catalogs were either old photos or were taken with P&S cameras, and few action shots. Working with schools to bring in quality photography that they can afford has been a win-win relationship for myself and for them. They've increased their budget to a level I'm willing to shoot for and they can finally publish materials that have current student-athletes in them.
Is $150 per game going to make you a living? No, but it's certainly worth it to some people. |
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Mike Carlson, Photographer
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Bayonet Point | FL | USA | Posted: 4:46 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> At the risk of being perceived as 'colluding' with Brian, I'll jump in. We're in the same market, so we're competitors one minute, and friends the next...heck, he's even threatened to post a FunPix of me holding his new baby to expose my softer side.
And speaking of that baby...
On this site we're all, as far as I can tell, part of the greater photography fraternity and the even greater fraternity of a country that's tightening its belt. Times are tougher for everyone, so these discussions, while valid, should not degenerate into anything personal. Brian was laid off as a newspaper photographer a couple of years ago, and is working harder than you might imagine to provide for his wife and new child by doing photography jobs the right way...even assisting me days after the birth of that child, so I know that he knows what it's like to be away from family in order to provide for them.
Back to the topic at hand...
Willis, you mention USF and then some smaller schools...perhaps my personal experience might help some consider another view on the topic. I had/have the chance to shoot USF sports, but only do so for AP. The freelancer agreement they insist anyone not with the "media" signs basically grants the school carte blanche copyright for anyone granted a USF football credential. Know how many people do that? And for free? For the 'opportunity'? They don't need to pay high day rates...
Heard of Saint Leo University? It's a DII school in the Sunshine State Conference, and they are one of my regular clients. They had a minimal photo budget before we, basically, stumbled upon each other as a chance meeting between their SID and one of my friends resulted in a referral and a relationship that is now entering its fifth school year. I make significantly more money with them than I ever could with USF...how? I believe they agreed to an increase in my pay this year (yes, a raise) because they are pleased with what I can offer above and beyond a 'guy with a camera', or someone that offers to do it for free - which they often have.
I realize that last paragraph smacks of arrogance, but sometimes you HAVE to believe you are worth what you are charging (though, others in our 'colluding' group think I should charge even more). The value, besides quality photographs, is also in what a GWC or someone just there to shoot, might not be able to offer. I can offer them a searchable archive through Photoshelter, quality prints, well-done portrait posters for their seniors, audio slideshows for their banquets, Photoshelter slideshows to embed in their stories, and so on...essentially, doing a professional job. Part of convincing them why they should pay more than they thought they needed to is in the 'sale' of the overall value in what you can offer.
This relationship has also expanded to the University as a whole, and I was able to pick up a significant contract to shoot their new recruitment brochures and other PR events.
And one of the best parts? I'm the only one most time on the sidelines. The athletes of all 16 sports know me by name, and I know them. There are no TV cameras or cable pullers or self-important alum stepping out. I'm welcomed in every team huddle and locker room. Heck, I am the first in line for media meals and even get free hot dogs.
Again, they expanded their budget because they realize the value that it brings to their program for promotion/recruiting, how much easier the archive makes their job searching for photos, or even for the simple fact that it improves athlete satisfaction.
Anyway, I really hope that didn't come off as too conceited and hope it presents some food for thought for photographers in those 'little' markets. (And if it did come across big-headed in any way, don't worry, I can name three friends who will fire off an email or FB post to mock me within minutes - and then remind me that I still need to charge more). |
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Michael Fullana, Photographer
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Miami | FL | USA | Posted: 5:00 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> if someone does not like the ad, hey just move on, but to send an email without signing your name... pretty idiotic.
Oh well to each his own, but definately this has been a very interesting post..
and yes, you have the right to rant.. :) |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 7:37 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> We are working in a market where Sports Illustrated and other publications can get photographs from Getty and AP for $50 regardless of size and placement. Let me say that again . . . FIFTY DOLLARS!!!
The Industry continues its downward spiral and we complain of $150 football games and yet it remains, oddly, socially acceptable to work for $11.00 per hour for a small market newspaper, to shoot a football game for AP and give up your copyright for $180, or to sell a photograph to a newspaper for $25.
How did Willis Glassgow become The Devil? |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 7:53 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> @Brian I suggested nothing. You made a statement on a public board that is open to interpretation by both members and non-members alike. If I took that statement to mean "X" then you can be reasonably assured that at least some segment of the readers also mistook your statement to mean something that it didn't. If anything my post offered up the opportunity to clarify what ......consult with my local shooters and bid accordingly for..... meant rather than to leave people wondering. While I'm at it, I DID give you the benefit of the doubt and said outright that I could be wrong. I also left it open for a member who's opinion is highly respected to chime in and offer his interpretation. Your friends and the locals may know you're a wonderful guy but for 1,000's of others reading this you (and I) are nothing more than names and avatars on page.
@Mike That's a GREAT story. Question, did your original relationship with St. Leo start at their 'minimal' budget or did you negotiate a higher starting point and work up from their? Either way it blows the theory that you can't price yourself UP the ladder if you star at the bottom. At least in this case.
~E |
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Mike Carlson, Photographer
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Bayonet Point | FL | USA | Posted: 9:37 PM on 08.26.10 |
->> Eric, when I took over the spring season I did so under the terms of the "existing" contract for that season. In the five years since we've negotiated a raise each fall, justified by more value added each year...this year was a soon-to-be-completed manual customization to embed the school's soon-to-be exclusive Photoshelter account directly into the frames of the athletic department's website. Will make it easier for me to separate just the SLU content from my other Photoshelter galleries. Another upside to using Photoshelter that the SID and athletes love is searchable access to all four years of the students' time at the school...have had a number of orders for a 'retrospective' collection without me having to dig through any files on my own.
But, again, like I mentioned, establishing and cultivating a relationship with a local school is certainly worth exploring. I know it isn't top dollar, but it's certainly more than many might imagine shooting a one-off game here and there. |
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 1:28 AM on 08.27.10 |
->> Mike,
Wish images were as accessible as that when I played. Of course back when I played it was still film.
I hate that I have zero images of me playing in college.
So many ways to get good images these days, that is a plus
(a little ot) |
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Central Jersey | NJ | USA | Posted: 3:57 AM on 08.27.10 |
| ->> FYI: That 84.xxx IP address is from Deutsche Telekom...for whatever that's worth. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 12:05 PM on 08.27.10 |
->> The point of the OP isn't whether Willis offers fair compensation for the job as offered ... it's about replying to the offer in a professional manner if you feel the offer isn't worth your time ..... each of us have to make a decision on every offer ... but you don't have to be a jerk about it if the compensation is up to your individual standard .....
I have turned down several jobs in the past year ... two of which were completely ridiculous in how low the compensations was and the rights grab they required, but I responded in a manner that didn't burn any bridges even though I was completely offended by the terms .... you don't have to be a jerk to say "no thanks" ... |
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Jack Arent, Photographer, Assistant
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Alameda | CA | | Posted: 3:01 PM on 08.27.10 |
| ->> Willis covers community college championship games in my area... thats a non existent market. More power to him for the niche he has created. |
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