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Advice on LPGA @ Oakmont CC
Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 11:59 AM on 07.03.10 |
->> Shooting golf is a new sport for me, so looking for any general tips from those who have experience.
1. If you've covered golf at Oakmont... anything specific I should be aware of and potentially overlook that might be obvious to you?
2. For those who cover PGA/LPGA or any golf for that matter on a regular basis - are there any specific angles/shots that are more marketable than others?
For example, I know that for baseball, there are the "typical" shots that you have to get in order for a day to be "complete". So, any guidance is appreciated.
Thank you in advance to anyone offers up their "Yoda-like" wisdom.
I am not asking for you to try and teach me how to cover golf on a message board, just don't want to miss anything that may be common sense to an experienced photographer covering the sport and the guy who is getting his first taste of it.
Again, thanks to those who will respond.
Jason |
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Brad Mangin, Photographer
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Pleasanton | CA | USA | Posted: 1:12 PM on 07.03.10 |
->> Hello Jason. There are many terrific stories about shooting golf archived here on our site written by some of the best golf photographers in the world. I just did a search and found a few that might help you. Here they are- in no particular order:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/826
A Photographers' Etiquette Course
By Darren Carroll
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1910
It's That Time of Year Again: Observations and Tips from the Links
By Robert Beck, Sports Illustrated
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/825
Swinging Back: Robert Beck's rules for shooting golf
By Robert Beck, Sports Illustrated
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/148
Tips From the First Tee: The "secrets" to successful golf photography
By Robert Beck, Sports Illustrated
These stories should get you started on your journey. Good luck! |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 2:25 PM on 07.03.10 |
->> Thanks. I usually search before I post since it is useless and frustrating to post a question about something that was already answered. My apologies for missing these.
Thanks, Brad. I truly appreciate pointing me in the right direction.
Jason
P.S. I've had three images in three weeks on SI.com. Is there any correlation to how frequently you show up there and the probability of ending up in print?
My common sense says they're two totally different entities, but I figured YOU were the guy to ask. Thanks in advance for being one of the "helpful" pros. |
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Brad Mangin, Photographer
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Pleasanton | CA | USA | Posted: 2:57 PM on 07.03.10 |
| ->> Jason- no correlation at all. And unfortunately not much cash for the website. The two bucks you might clear per image will not pay many bills. There is no money in Internet usage. NONE. It is all cheap subscription deals. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 4:17 PM on 07.03.10 |
->> I know, right? Thank God that I don't rely on that as my sole income from this business.
It was just "cool" the first time I saw my $1.75 image on SI.com. With how hectic some days are being a photographer, those $1.75 paydays are fun to talk about. I laughed my ass off when I had a whopping 1"x1" image in the table of contents of ESPN Magazine. After all, if the business isn't fun and enjoyable, why do it?
I did actually read everybody's advice I could find on this board and took my own area's market potential and came up with a business plan that was based on paid work - not freebies. SS was a very valuable tool in developing all the pieces necessary. So, spec shooting - unless I get "really lucky" - is never going to be a big part. Had I not read so much here, I might have thought that it was the way to go.
I think that a lot of newbies (i was one) think that getting the credential on spec is going to make them rich. It really isn't. But, if you have nothing to do on a day, I think it makes for good practice and at least you're shooting something.
I must admit that I HAVE developed relationships out some spec shooting that have led to quite a bit of paid work. But, relationship building is a business practice - not just go, shoot spec and go home. The advice on SS made me realize that I had to maximize these opportunities and do something to grow the business.
So, I guess I owe all the members (including you) a thank you for putting so much good information on this message board. Also, a few of you that are my "friends" on FB have been open to giving some sound advice.
By just browsing SS, I found more answers, tips and business practices than I could digest. The nice thing is that the info is usually from a pro - not the guy down the street who buys a camera, takes a few classes at Ritz camera and now gets in my way at every high school or youth game because he is trying to get that "SI shot" of his son on "sports mode".
So, thanks Brad for the links. And a thank you goes out to everyone who has been helpful and guided me without a demeaning tone or a "you should already know that" attitude. I appreciate it.
Jason |
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Brad Mangin, Photographer
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Pleasanton | CA | USA | Posted: 8:10 PM on 07.03.10 |
->> Jason- just don't go overboard to support a company who will not pay a guarantee day rate against sales as they will end up taking advantage of you. If everyone said no to spec guess what would happen? These companies would either go out of business or charge a better rate for their images and come up with a better business plan so the people shooting for them would make more than 2 bucks a picture.
Bottom line- nice folks like you want the thrill of shooting the big leagues. Company A gets you a credential. If you stop shooting for them after many months of seeing a few pennies then someone else will. It is a circle of DEATH in which nobody wins.
The race to the bottom continues. I would rather stay at home and watch The Hills and The City than bust my ass for people like this.
Put a value on your time and your photographs. You are worth more than that. |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 11:49 PM on 07.03.10 |
->> Good luck with Icon and golf. I had a photo of Vijay on ESPN.com's main fantasy golf page for 4 months - $1.75
I built up my portfolio and ran my tail off, but never really plunked money down. Still, after all that running, humping big glass around big hills for days on end, sorry, unless you are Hunter Martin, Darren Carroll or employed by the PGA/LPGA - making money is tough.
That said, it is an awesome sport to shoot. Darren is top notch. Here is a thing he did on the Photoshelter site - http://blog.photoshelter.com/2009/07/fore-how-to-photograph-golf-li.html.
Good luck with the golf stuff. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 1:05 PM on 07.04.10 |
->> Totally agree, Scott. Brad - agree with you as well on valuing my work.
Although it may be contrary to some shooters business model, I can honestly say that I have never shot on spec for anyone in lieu of a paying job. My business model is based upon solid contract work at good rates - by any standard (I'm not the guy giving away my work for a credential) and I do think that, although I am relatively new at this business, my work is "good enough" and I'm definitely worth being paid for my time.
In my region, I can only say that shooting the spec work if it is something like MLB, NFL. NHL, LPGA, etc greatly influences and supports me charging higher rates that what is typical. Parents who hire me to chronicle the child's season, or a client that is employing me to handle all their photography needs (promotional, commercial and even personal usage) feel better knowing that I have shot that level of sports.
So, just so everyone is aware, I will NOT stop looking for paid work and begin selling my soul for a credential. I've been credentialed by clients because they like my work. Am I a great shooter? No. Am I a horrible shooter? No.
The times when I accept spec work are when I have nothing better to do than watch TV. In my opinion, at that point the spec work is marketing and relationship building. I can tell you (I mentioned this before, I think...) that I have developed some very solid relationships from people I have met while doing the $1.75 work for Icon or another agency. But, then again. that's what I do - always looking for ways to get more paid work.
Again, so the pros don't think that I am part of the problem... I usually won't leave the house to cover an event for less than $100/hr. My workflow is pretty streamlined so not a ton of time is spent after the fact in the editing phase. But, again - it may not be the best scenario - the fact that I can say "I've had my photos on SI.com. in ESPN Magazine and I cover MLB and major NCAA sports..." carries a ton of weight when I tell them that covering a simple baseball game, with very specific usage restrictions, is at least $350.
I hope I am not undervaluing myself too much at that rate. My business model is very simple and was derived from the information and advice I got right here on SportsShooter.com. If I plan to work 300 days a year and average $300 per day - that's a $90,000 revenue stream. Minus my expenses - which are kept to a minimum (again from SS advice) - this is an adequate income for me.
And, that is not including miscellaneous income that we all receive from web & print placements through companies like Icon, USPresswire and others. Also. I don't even think about the sale of photos to a parent/coach/school after covering an event. Is that income? Yep. But, as you all have stated and I've heard/read/experienced... it's not guaranteed.
So, I agree with all that I've heard. I also appreciate how I've been treated by the members here. I've really never had to deal with any derogatory or demeaning remarks. Everything. including criticism (which is how we get better at our craft) has been constructive.
I'm a little apprehensive about covering golf for the first time, but Brad & Scott - thanks for the guidance. For the hell of it, I'll let you know how it all went. I'm sure I'll have something interesting that will happen.
Thanks again.
Jason |
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Justin Edmonds, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 2:47 PM on 07.04.10 |
->> Jason- You're missing the point entirely. No one is arguing that you have a sound business model. The point is that spec work for these "wires" hurts our entire industry. Sure, if you're just using it for practice then it's no big deal to you but by accepting that credential to go "practice" you are actually telling that company that it's ok to undervalue the rest of us.
If you really are just looking to practice then find a local club or high school team, develop a relationship with them and practice shooting them. You will get far better access with them than you will at any pro venue.
If your clients don't think that you're worth at least $350 a baseball game unless you've had a $1.75 image on SI.com then educate them. Your portfolio should justify your rates, not the fact that you've been on the sidelines of a pro or college venue. Sure, people will think that SI.com and ESPN Magazine are a big deal but explain why a body of ANY good work is better than mediocre work from a few pro games.
I've personally shot all four major pro sports (on paid assignment) several times over and you know how many images from those games have made it into my portfolio? One. I have more images in my portfolio form 10 year old football than I do of all major sports combined. Good pictures can be found anywhere if you look hard enough.
I, as I'm sure many members do, appreciate that you want to do things the right way and have come her for advice. I chose to speak up because I believe that you do care and that's important. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 7:01 PM on 07.04.10 |
->> I actually do get the point.
The one thing about message boards, email, etc is that you lose the ability to "read" a person. You don't get to hear the "tone". I think my post came off differently than I intended (at least to you). Put us in a room on on the phone and you would probably think differently.
I have a hard time seeing how the spec wire services are really killing the industry. It seems like basic supply and demand to me. It's getting easier to get adequate photography and I just look at it as me having to work harder and smarter to get the jobs and convince clients that they WILL get a superior product when they pay.
I love paid assignments and do have quite a few of them. I have enough to make a living at this. And it is 90% sports - mostly action coverage.
But, if I am not doing anything on a given day and have the opportunity to shoot on spec for Icon, that makes perfect sense to me. May not to some, but it does to me.
In my humble opinion, the spec services are here to stay. Their business model works. Hell, they get decent photographers who shoot for them and they can place hundreds of little $1.75 web images and make money. For the photographer - you sit and hope that all those are yours!
So, I don't see the problem with companies like Icon, Southcreek Global and USPresswire, etc. I'd prefer to be paid every time I step behind the camera but I'm okay with shooting on spec. Obviously you can't rely on that as your sole source of income.
And, I disagree on the fact that having the MLB and any major NCAA experience on your resume doesn't matter. From MY personal experience, I will tell you - with 100% certainty - that I am looked upon as "better" and justifiably more expensive by clients/potential client because I am shooting MLB and major college. They've told me that they were impressed by that simple fact. AM I "better"? I am sure I'm better than some and worse than others. The only opinion that matters to me is the client.
I agree with one thing... I don't think many of my images from covering the Pirates would make into my "portfolio" either. But, when comparing apples to apples in my area - having shots of Pitt football or Pirates baseball in your "presentation"... goes a LONG way when my competition is showing little league and high school images.
It's my everyday reality, one that I can't say I am upset with. So, shooting spec has a value to me that is separate from the $1.75 I might make. Having images on SI.com and in ESPN Magazine, no matter how small or insignificant they may be, has a HUGE impact on my business. So, in that regards - I like shooting on spec. I like shooting for Icon, they're great guys to work with as well which helps.
I try not to focus on not being paid like I am from my other clients. I look at it as me investing time to increase my abilities and my reputation. It's a lot better than spending $$ on marketing, that's for sure.
And, I don't want to or need "practice" by chasing little leaguers around or shooting a high school soccer match. Working with Icon gives me that extra time behind the camera. It just so happens to be shooting the Pirates (which some could argue IS a little league team).
This discussion has been had so many times its ridiculous. If a person doesn't like shooting on spec and thinks it's killing the industry - then that person probably won't do it.
As far as our industry, from all the emails, calls and posts that have been advice, criticism or just an explanation as to why a person has the opinion they do... I can tell you that there are A LOT of things that are hurting this industry. This is a small one.
So, I shoot on spec for Icon because it's beneficial to me. I'm really not concerned with $$$ being made from it. I use it to enhance my business one way or another. It simply works for me. Since my business IS part of the industry, I don't see spec shooting as a negative thing.
But, I am sure it is to some people. Just not me.
By the way, thanks again to those who posted and emailed me info on my original question. I don't want this thread to turn into a "spec or NOT to spec" discussion so I'm done with it. I got the answers I was looking for. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 7:05 PM on 07.04.10 |
->> Last thing. I have no idea WHAT licensing deals Icon, or any other service, has. So, from that side of it - Brad - I see how it would have to change to a more deserving rate if decent photographers simply said "no".
It makes sense the way you put it. I guess the problem is exactly what you said... there will ALWAYS be someone willing to do it. I guess it boils down to whether or not you can capitalize on it.
Of course I'd LOVE to work for SI or a publication as a staffer. But, from what I've been told - those positions are falling by the wayside. So, having a uniques way to pay the bills is the only option.
Thanks again for the info on shooting golf. |
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