| Sign in: |
| Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features. |
|
|
|
|
|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Is it unreasonable not to sign this?
Robert Klein, Photographer
 |
South Easton | MA | USA | Posted: 2:18 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> First of all, I mean no disrespect to Dave Matthews or his band. I would like to think that this was dreamed up by the lawyers for his management or the publicists. The release copied below was required to shoot at his show in Mansfield, MA this week. Only a few photographers refused and management has indicated that if you do not sign, you do not shoot. Of course, what they fail to understand is that half the audience is using pretty good point and shoots or small DSLR's they got into the venue and some are even shooting video and I would bet a fair amount of those images and video get circulated and/or sold to internet sites. That aside comments on this release and how it should be handled would be appreciated:
DAVE MATTHEWS BAND
PHOTOGRAPHY RELEASE
PHOTOGRAPHER____________________________________________
PUBLICATION_______________________________________________
PUBLICATION PHONE NUMBER______________________________
EVENT LOCATION/DATE______________________________________
You have been granted permission to photograph the recording and performing artist professionally known as Dave Matthews Band (“Artist”). In consideration you agree:
1. All photographs taken will be used solely by the Publication;
2. Under no circumstance may the photographs be sold or used by you for any other source or publication, or for any commercial merchandise, including, but not limited to, posters, calendars, clothing, programs, books, websites, photo prints, direct or indirect endorsements of any products or services, without Artist’s prior written approval;
3. Artist shall have the right in perpetuity throughout the universe to manufacture, distribute, exploit, edit, advertise, display, sell, license or, otherwise dispose of the photographs and derivatives derived therefrom in any manner or media whatsoever including without limitation, in connection with any album, commercial merchandise, websites and marketing, publicity and promotional materials relating to Artist’s career;
4. To follow all directions from Artist’s Tour Manager, Production Manager, or Stage Manager, including, but not limited to, physical location or length of shoot;
5. Flash and/or strobe lighting is not allowed; and
6. To provide Artist and/or Artist’s management or representatives in a timely manner with high-resolution files of the Photograph(s) upon request.
You further acknowledge that the visual image of the Artist is of a unique and valuable nature, and should you breach this agreement, the Artist or its representatives shall be entitled to, in addition to its rights and remedies under the law, financial compensation for the harm caused by my aforesaid breach of the agreement.
Additionally, you acknowledge that the receipt of a photo pass does not represent, in any manner, a waiver by either the individual members of Artist or Artist as a whole of their common-law or statutory rights or remedies in connection with: (1) any infringement of their publicity, (2) their right to redress the misappropriation of their image(s), or (3) their right to redress any violation of copyright or any other proprietary rights. |
|
Bob Ford, Photographer
|
Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 2:26 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> I wouldn't sign. |
|
David Heasley, Photographer, Photo Editor
 |
Columbus | Oh | U.S.A | Posted: 2:34 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> It is kind of funny to me that a band that allows anyone to record(audio) their shows has a form like this |
|
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
|
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:41 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> looks pretty standard until the last part where they say they own the photos. I would cross out all of that section with a pen, initial it and sign it. if they don't agree bail out. |
|
Todd Spoth, Photographer, Student/Intern
|
Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 2:43 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> DMB sucks anyway!
-T |
|
Rick Osentoski, Photographer
|
Martin | OH | United States | Posted: 2:46 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> I'd cross out 3 and 6 the artist really should not be allowed to sell or use your photos for free.
Also how does # 2 work if you are shooting for a wire service, not a publication? |
|
Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
|
New York | NY | USA | Posted: 2:47 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> they left off the part where they have the rights to your first born too
WHY anyone would sign something like this is beyond me. |
|
Jim Comeau, Photo Editor, Photographer
|
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 2:48 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> 3 and 6 are completely bogus. 2 is pretty bad because it doesn't allow for editorial sales. |
|
Butch Miller, Photographer
|
Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 2:59 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> I would have great difficulty in signing such an agreement whether it be for myself personally or on behalf of a publication/employer .... while it does offer the opportunity to create some great imagery .... concert coverage just isn't all that important from a journalistic perspective .... at least not enough to trade a cow for a bag of magic beans .... |
|
D. Ross Cameron, Photographer
|
Oakland | CA | USA | Posted: 3:01 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> The person who wrote up this agreement obviously thinks you're a desperate, brain-damaged sycophant. The only codicil missing here is the one where you agree to pay for all their tour expenditures.
You should return it to the band with a glowing (or glowering -- your choice) review of their proposed stand-up comedy act.
DRC |
|
Max Lashin, Photographer, Assistant
|
Fort Lauderdale | FL | United States | Posted: 3:06 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> "...throughout the universe..."
Damn I was hoping to sell these pictures to a magazine on Saturn. |
|
Michael Fischer, Photographer
|
Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 3:08 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> Like many of you, I've seen these deals before.
Cross out the offending paragraphs (yeah, I know.. that leaves the signature space) and sign. If they don't like it, move on to the next assignment.
This has always worked for me, but I've also always had the parting shot ready for the day it doesn't :
"Be nice to those you're passing by on the way up because they'll be the same ones you pass on the way down."
As I told one road manager, "you think I don't have issues with someone stealing my images and costing me money??"
Michael |
|
Andrew Nelles, Photographer
 |
Chicago | IL | usa | Posted: 3:28 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> Yeah, cross out most of that or walk away. I've had instances where modifications were not a big deal and some artists who would not negotiate on the contract and I had to walk away. |
|
Jack Megaw, Photographer, Assistant
|
Philadelphia | PA | America | Posted: 3:38 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> Got a black Sharpie...or several? |
|
Stanley Leary, Photographer
|
Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 3:40 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> I am pretty much agreement with everyone's comments. I do think the very first thing missing in the comments is you don't generally ever have the authority to sign on the behalf of you publication. This type of release at the door of an event for the most part should never be signed by a photographer due to usually you have no way to represent all those they are asking you to sign for.
I think if anyone is presented this I would first explain that you cannot sign this based on you don't have the authority to sign as the legal representative of the publication.
I think anyone who did sign this and not have checked with or had the authority of a publication to do so has opened themselves up to legal situation possibly from the publication.
Most publications assume exclusive use of something they had someone go and shoot on their behalf and this nullifies this. |
|
Matt Brown, Photographer
|
Fullerton | CA | USA | Posted: 3:56 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> Don't touch it. |
|
Jeff Fusco, Photographer
|
Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 5:02 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> Rick
If your shooting for a wire, you walk.
First question asked when getting credentialed for a show is : Is there a release?
If so, no coverage.
I have had a few shows where they said no release and then they sprung one on me. Just said sorry cannot sign and leave.
Sometimes they relent, but its rare.
Ishot a show where I swear 70% of the shooters were just in there to get photos for there personal use. Flashes going off when no flash is allowed, one shooter was drinking a beer and spilled it. Had cell phone cameras raised in front of my lens. One shooter was using his DSLR to shoot video and had it raised above his head most of the time even tho no video was allowed.It was actually comical. Great war story day. I got my shots, all in a days work. |
|
Paul Alesse, Photographer
|
Centereach | NY | USA | Posted: 5:51 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> Shame of it all is that for every photog that refuses to sign it, there will be a photog that gets in on some bogus credential, that shoots for free anyway, that will trade away the farm for access, and will brag to all his buddies on flickr... "I shot DMB" in concert. |
|
Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
|
McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 7:18 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> Two words to the rep that handed you this:
Blow Me
Or you can just scribble "Fred Flintstone" on the signature line and hand it back.
You can blame Gordon (Sting) Sumner and Ian Copeland (the Police's manager) for inventing this piece o' dung so remember that when you think about buying one of Mr. Tantric's CDs... |
|
David Manning, Photographer
|
Athens | GA | | Posted: 7:50 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> What a giant pile of Dog-poo. |
|
Aleksi Lepisto, Photographer
|
Sacramento | CA | United States | Posted: 8:48 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> Do you guys think this is the work of PR and management/marketing sitting down and figuring,
"Hey, we can force these guys to give us pictures, so we don't need a staff photographer"
Or, are they really just totally naive and really think that it's a fair agreement? I see this more and more, and I can't assume EVERYONE is really that narrow-minded and think it's done on a calculated approach at trying to leverage photographers against each other. |
|
Lyle Waisman, Photographer
|
Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 9:21 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> In general, these contracts are becoming more and more prevalent, even with smaller bands. They tend to be, more often than not, a scare tactic.
There are far worse ones out there:
=-=-=-=-=
"All Photographs which Photographer intends to use first must be submitted to Artist for approval. The print, negative, or other material embodying disapproved Photographs will be promptly destroyed by the Photographer."
"You hereby assign to us the copyright and all other rights in and to the Photographs for the full period of copyright."
"Artist shall receive at no charge one (1) eleven inch by fourteen inch (11” x 14”) print of each Work published within seven (7) days of said publication."
"I grant to you the right to use my name, likeness and biographical data in connection with the distribution, exhibition, advertising and exploitation of the Photos."
=-=-=-=-=
However, it's always nice to hear from people that have no concept of contract law.
If you cross stuff off... it does no good. The other party has to agree to the amended contract.
If you sign "Fred Flintstone"... it does no good. The name you sign is considered your identity for the purpose of the contract, and it's just as valid.
Either sign or don't sign. If you don't sign and they won't let you shoot, go home. |
|
Jeff Martin, Photographer
|
wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 9:44 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> "If you cross stuff off... it does no good. The other party has to agree to the amended contract."
I'd like to hear from Sam (or any lawyer) on this. The other party may not have agreed, but that's not the point. By crossing out the rights grab portions, YOU have not agreed to transfer your copyright.
It is not advisable to take legal advise from the likes of me. |
|
Steve Ueckert, Photographer
|
Houston | TX | | Posted: 10:33 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> W W J M D
What would Jim Marshall do?
I doubt that he would have signed. |
|
Joseph Zimmerman, Photographer
|
Howard | Pa | USA | Posted: 10:51 PM on 06.09.10 |
| ->> Steve I wish he was still around to ask him his thoughts on stuff like this. Would those Iconic images exist today if these musicians were like this from the start. If they are really concerned about the artists image why don't they all hire a tour photographer and then just give hand outs like they're the White House. |
|
Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 11:33 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> Kyle-
"If you cross stuff off... it does no good. The other party has to agree to the amended contract."
Correct and incorrect. Correct that the other party has to sign and date it, but incorrect that is does no good. If you hand it back to them and they say nothing but ALLOW you to still go shoot, then you in essence have a pending contract. While a contract is pending without any sort of retroactive clause, you can continue on your merry way. I actually did something very similar to this to get a very sweet deal with a company that is routinely lambasted on here for being satan of the photo industry.
If you decide to strike through portions of the contract, you can either strike ONE SIMPLE WORD, or add two words to completely reverse the powers of this contract. I'll make this a contest and give you an hour from this posting to see who wins a cookie. :) Whenever you make strikes/addendums to a contract, remember to initial and date near the change. When you only make a tiny change like this, you have a good shot at slipping it under their noses and leaving it in pending status. If you black out the entire page (ask Frishling about the contract I sent back to the company he used to work for) they're obviously going to catch that and probably turn you away or wrap you up for way longer than is necessary.
After doing this, MAKE SURE you take a photo of the contract and keep it with the folder of images should any need for it arise in the future.
-----
Now then there are a LOT of things that people seem to be glossing right over which could have major consequences between you and your employer. IF you're on staff for any publication, THEY own the rights to your images.... So A: Who cares, it's not yours anyway and B: can you even legally sign the "agreement" in the first place? You are always considered a representative of whom you're working for which is stated in the character section of your employment contract or on a supplementary addendum. But that same contract also (more often than not) states something along the lines that either the publication owns the photos and/or that you can not sell/license those photos without THEIR prior written consent.
Having those two clauses in your employment contract bar you from signing their contract in the first place.
The same applies for freelancers, but some freelancers retain their rights, so this IS a big deal for them, and I, as a freelancer, could either not sign or make my usual changes.
-----
Regardless of if you're a freelancer or staffer, you NEED TO BE IN COMMUNICATION with your boss as this is playing out. Since most concerts occur after 7:00PM and deadline is usually 10:00PM, can you imagine the look on your boss's face when you go back to the office empty handed and say it's because you wouldn't sign their agreement?
I've always either talked to my boss ahead of time or called them from the venue and surprisingly a little over half the time they said to just leave, a little under half told me to make my changes and see what they say and a few told me to sign it as is because they didn't see it like I did or the event was extremely important and needed to be shot.
---
I had another point I was going to make and now I completely forget what it was.
Oh yea, don't forget the contest. Deadline in an hour. :) |
|
Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 11:43 PM on 06.09.10 |
->> Oh yea, Duress.
Duress is your best friend in this instance, especially with how our job market is lately. Would you be fired if you didn't sign the contract and didn't produce an image on deadline? Who knows, that depends on your latest performance review. If you were fired though, chances of landing another job are slim to none since there are 2,000 photographers for every open position.
"So wait, you won't let me in if I don't sign this? Seriously?"
All the while in the back of your head your scared shiteless at ticking off the editors and page designers on deadline and everyone is looking for people to lay off to trim the budget.
You actually have a leg to stand on when they come crying breach. |
|
Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 12:30 AM on 06.10.10 |
->> No takers? BOOO!
Anyway, cross out this part "(“Artist”)" from the first line and the rest of the contract doesn't make a lick of sense. If you want to have a lot of fun, strike that out and insert one sentence over like so:
"In consideration you ("Artist") agree:"
Of course I wouldn't recommend that because then you'd need to jump down and change the semantics of the "artist" uses in the later paragraphs. Without doing that, and they sign, then you have a binding agreement full of loopholes and misinterpretations which would be fightable and ergo leave you open to damages since their lawyers are probably being paid a lot more than yours.
Or you can just amend it like so: " In consideration you do not agree:" then jump down and strike "further" and "additionally".
Lots of options... Lots of semantics and room for interpretation huh?
That's why you should discuss any sort changes with your lawyer before doing anything. With the exception of a few people on here, none of us are laywers (yet) and what we write should be taken with a grain of salt. |
|
Lyle Waisman, Photographer
|
Chicago | IL | USA | Posted: 1:05 AM on 06.10.10 |
->> Can I call you Shomas if you call me Kyle? :)
Regarding duress... I am not a lawyer, despite my initials. After having been presented with far too many of these types of releases, I have on occasion, however, consulted with lawyers.
'Duress' is defined as the threat of physical harm, e.g., "you sign this contract or we will kick your ass."
"If you don't sign this we won't let you in" is not duress. |
|
John Korduner, Photographer
 |
Baton Rouge | LA | United States | Posted: 1:14 AM on 06.10.10 |
->> This is really a pretty simple matter. A contract in most states simply requires...
• An Offer
• An Acceptance in strict compliance with the terms of the offer
• Legal Purpose/Objective
• Mutuality of Obligation – also known as the “meeting of the minds”
• Consideration
• Competent Parties
This whole thread has been derailed by adding elements of agency and counteroffer, but it doesn't change the initial issue. Is the contract legal? did you understand it? did you accept the terms you were offered?
If I don't like my credit card agreement, I can't just charge something, strike the terms of agreement on the back of the receipt, and sign "Scooby Doo"....then contest the purchase because the terms aren't fair. |
|
Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 1:45 AM on 06.10.10 |
->> John-
In your credit card instance, correct, because you've already signed the contract when you signed your application and they don't send you the card until you fill all that out and give them a DNA sample. You'd be breaching that contract when you do as you stated later on down the road. If you wanted to take a hatchet to the application, had your meeting of the minds and they agreed, then it's viable.
Shmyle-
There are different types of duress; economic being one of them.
(Not sure how I typed your name wrong (the first time at least, the second time was just too funny to pass up) but c'est la vie.) |
|
Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
|
Boise | ID | US | Posted: 2:36 AM on 06.10.10 |
->> Robert-
Sign it twice just to be sure. |
|
David Harpe, Photographer
|
Robert Klein, Photographer
|
South Easton | MA | USA | Posted: 7:18 AM on 06.10.10 |
| ->> David...thanks for the tip on the pen...that is certainly the best way to go here...I appreciate all of the comments...the other point is that when you sign these things, which in 99% of the cases I do not, even though the agency I work for lets me retain ownership, you never get a signed copy back with the management's signature on it...the promotion people who give you these things never really look at them and just hand them to the manager right before the show starts...in one instance, the promotion people forgot and the tour manager was chasing us down as we left the venue after our three songs demanding we sign...we all refused. |
|
Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
|
New York | NY | USA | Posted: 8:37 AM on 06.10.10 |
->> and then there are the Stone Temple Pilots who are selling photo passes:
Now you can buy a photo pass.. STP packages..
VIP PACKAGES AVAILABLE
There are three great VIP Packages available for the upcoming tour. Check out the details below:
STP Exlcusive Photo Pass Package
Package includes:
One premium ticket located within the first 5 rows of the reserved section
Early access into the venue
Official photo pass (front of stage access, first 3 songs)
Exclusive backstage tour
Official photo pass and backstage tour laminate
Specially designed Stone Temple Pilots concert shirt
Collectible tour poster (limited edition, numbered)
Set of official STP guitar picks
$40 store coupon to the official STP online store
Backstage Experience Package
Package includes:
One premium ticket located within the first 5 rows of the reserved section
Early access into the venue
Exclusive backstage tour
Official backstage tour laminate
Specially designed Stone Temple Pilots concert shirt
Collectible tour poster (limited edition, numbered)
Set of official STP guitar picks
$40 store coupon to the official STP online store
Premium Ticket Package
Package includes:
One premium ticket located within the first 10 rows of the reserved section
Specially designed Stone Temple Pilots concert shirt
Collectible tour poster (limited edition, numbered)
Set of official STP guitar picks
Commemorative tour laminate
$20 store coupon to the official STP online store |
|
Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
|
McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 2:47 PM on 06.10.10 |
->> "Artist shall have the right in perpetuity throughout the universe..."
At least that leaves you the resale rights for parallel universes and alternate dimensions.
Introducing the Wormhole Photo Agency! |
|
Tim Hynds, Photo Editor, Photographer
|
Sioux City | IA | USA | Posted: 5:10 PM on 06.10.10 |
->> Debra,
STP was in Sioux City in March. Our photographer was presented with a "artist owns all rights" clause contract. Photographer struck and initialed that paragraph and the road manager initialed the change. All was right with the world.
We have standing orders, agreed to by the editor, that we will walk if presented with such a contact and no changes can be made.
I suggest that all staff photographers have such advance agreements with their editors. |
|
David Manning, Photographer
|
Athens | GA | | Posted: 5:44 PM on 06.10.10 |
->> This is why i photograph bands locally and bands that are friends of friends in small clubs.
With the camera technology we have as well as small strobes, lighting should never be a problem.
I'll leave shooting the big, mainstream acts to people like Deb whom do it for a living. I'd rather find my niche in a small club and around people whom are just happy that I'm there. |
|
Andrew Fielding, Photographer
|
Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 7:06 PM on 06.10.10 |
->> At least they don't make you get approval for each photo before publication. Hanson (yes that Hanson) required us to submit any photos we planned to publish to them first, and we weren't even shooting a concert, but rather a charity event on college owned property (paper was a school publication).
But that aside I wouldn't sign this for all the reasons listed above and more. |
|
Steve Ueckert, Photographer
|
Houston | TX | | Posted: 7:27 PM on 06.10.10 |
->> David--
There is a fine line between those bands / artists that welcome publicity, actually desiring to get noticed, and those that believe they have become stars and everyone is willing to kiss their a$$ and catch a ride on their coat tails.
I am amazed by the audacity of bands expecting professional photographers to sign away all image rights for the "opportunity" to shoot the first two or three songs. Jerry Garcia is gone, and so also is gone the policy of the Dead allowing anyone to record their live shows, including photography. |
|
Jeff Fusco, Photographer
|
Philadelphia | PA | USA | Posted: 9:23 PM on 06.10.10 |
->> One that is funny to me is that the newer bands tend to have the releases with the dumbest clauses and then when you shoot them, there is lousy lighting. When the 2 or 3 songs are over, suddenly the lights come up.
I have shot hundreds of shows and the 2 that I have the best shots from are KISS and The Stones. In both cases we had 2 songs, but in the case of the Stones we were told the lighting would be perfect for shooting. Mick and the boys worked the shooters, gave us great shots. Same with KISS, we were told the light would be great and the Gene and Paul would give us what we needed. They each came up to the edge of the pit and gave us face time. To be honest I was done after one song, had everything I needed.
Those 2 band know the value of a good pic and made it easy.
How long have they been around ????
I shoot less and less shows every year, it just not worth the hassle. |
|
Return to --> Message Board Main Index
|