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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Unpaid internships
John H. Reid III, Photographer
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Owings Mills | MD | USA | Posted: 10:13 PM on 04.04.10 |
| ->> Heh. My internship violated #3 and #4. Though mine wasn't unpaid. *shrugs* |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 12:40 AM on 04.05.10 |
->> John, thanks for posting this. I was going to and then forgot.
This could get ugly. I suspect the unions weren't happy about it, either. |
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Steve Violette, Photographer
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Gulf Breeze | FL | USA | Posted: 9:10 AM on 04.05.10 |
->> Part of the problem with unpaid internships is that the Education Institution allows for these jobs to be posted. more institutions need to stand up like one lady in the article
“A few famous banks have called and said, ‘We’d like to do this,’ ” Ms. Steinfeld said. “I said, ‘No way. You will not list on this campus.’ ”
How in the world can an institution of higher learning - that charges thousands and thousands for an education allow companies to come to campus and post jobs for unpaid internships. If the administrators allow this, then they are doing a disservice to the students and institution. I do not buy the fact that a company gives a "valuable learning experience" in the field if they do not value the job enough to pay someone enough to do the job |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 11:24 AM on 04.05.10 |
->> Colleges are paid thousands in dollars to educate students and when they are done, most graduates IMHO are not really ready to hit the ground running.
Companies and individual photographers take on interns and many then have to spend a great deal of time teaching these students many things they should have been taught and were not by there schools. One predominate theme I encounter is the lack of understanding of how to use flash. Hot shoe flashes as well as studio strobes are not taught by all undergraduate programs.
Another topic I rarely ever seen well taught to students is business practices. Every student IMHO should go through a class to help them understand what it costs to do this profession so they will understand how to help an employer or go in business themselves.
Frankly, I find many college programs for the amount of money paid to them do a poor job of preparing the students. Internships are needed for many students to learn more practical skills they need to use every day.
I don't think those students should be paid when the company will most spend more time investing in them than they get in return. The company should know this when they hire an intern (it is one of the factors of the 6 listed by DOL)
If a student is capable of doing a job and needs no training then an internship program isn't always necessary. I think many companies use the internship program to determine if a person really has the skills set necessary to perform a job when a resume and portfolio alone isn't comprehensive enough for employers.
I do think people who offer internships do need to stick to the 6 guidelines otherwise they are violating the Department of Labor's guidelines. If an internship fits within those guidelines then the intern will get more out of the internship of value than the company. The company will have gained experience with the intern and may at the end of the time find the intern now ready for a paid job. |
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Michael Ip, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:41 AM on 04.05.10 |
->> I don't know if this article pertains to most photo or journalism internships though. From my experience and other colleagues experiences, when you're doing one of those internships, you're expected to work just as if you were a staffer. This I think is extremely valuable.
However, in other industries such film, fashion, arts, etc., it's not uncommon for interns to be office helpers. In those capacities, they're essentially free labor and they learn very little about the industry they hope to find work in. In many of those cases, it's just a waste of time for the intern. |
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Sean D. Elliot, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Norwich | CT | USA | Posted: 12:04 PM on 04.05.10 |
->> number four would be pretty difficult to do. I suppose one could only send the intern along as an observer ... but that would defeat purpose number two ... so one might have to be a bit generous in the application of those two rules for an unpaid PJ internship to pass muster.
at my paper our HR dept. is VERY careful with the rules and I believe they are of the opinion that the paper is not "benefiting" per se from the limited hours per week we get out of our interns.
not that I feel particularly good having anything to do with an unpaid internship ... |
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Steve Violette, Photographer
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Gulf Breeze | FL | USA | Posted: 12:22 PM on 04.05.10 |
->> Stanley
On this statement
"I don't think those students should be paid when the company will most spend more time investing in them than they get in return. The company should know this when they hire an intern (it is one of the factors of the 6 listed by DOL)"
I have to totally disagree - This is why it is an intern job - to gain experience - it is not a staff position. The reasons companies should be offering intern jobs is because they want to help train people in the industry and have some "beginner tasks" and also provide an opportunity to learn. If there is an expectation that it will be done for free - then what is the point - teach kids that their services are not worth anything....wonder why there are so many $0.29 4x6's being sold?
The internship should bring value to both the intern and the company. This is how industry should be training its future employee's - and they should not do it for free
I do agree on your other points -- well said
Steve |
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Jim Comeau, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 12:35 PM on 04.05.10 |
| ->> I've always been a proponent of internships. I had 2 unpaid ones in college and I believe it's why I was able to get a job when few of my classmates could. |
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Jeff Brehm, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 1:23 PM on 04.05.10 |
| ->> Those of us who worked for Gannett papers know what it feels like to be unpaid. Especially those of us on salary. :) |
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Joel Hawksley, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Athens | OH | USA | Posted: 2:52 PM on 04.05.10 |
->> @Stanley-
You hit the nail right on the head- few students are being taught the practices necessary to survive, especially as freelancers.
I am currently taking the class "Business Practices for Photographers," a 300-level course for Visual Communication majors here at Ohio University taught by professor Marcy Nighswander. The class covers everything from contracts to CODB, and I've already learned a ton in my first week.
Of the 20 or so possible seats, maybe a dozen are filled.
(For reference, the textbook for the course is none other than John Harrington's "Best Business Practices for Photographers.")
OU does offer a class in "Small systems lighting," which goes pretty in-depth covering the use of hotshoe strobes. |
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Samuel Lewis, Photographer
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Miami | FL | USA | Posted: 4:45 PM on 04.05.10 |
| ->> There's also an interesting article in the recent PDN addressing the issue of unpaid interns and related legal issues. |
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Tommy Penick, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Boone | NC | United States | Posted: 4:53 PM on 04.05.10 |
| ->> I have photo professors send me emails about internship opportunities that are unpaid pretty frequently. While I wasn't opposed to unpaid internships that were with well established publications where students could learn valuable skills from trained professionals, a lot of the advertisements were for companies unrelated to photography looking for photo interns. To me, it seemed that these corporations simply wanted a free staff photographer to do the work. Anyone have similar situations? |
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Butch Miller, Photographer
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Lock Haven | PA | USA | Posted: 5:18 PM on 04.05.10 |
| ->> As far as unpaid internships in the area of photo journalism or sports photography ... if the publication you are interning for publishes your works ... you deserve at least a small stipend for your efforts ... especially if you were "assigned" to provide imagery from an event .... |
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Central Jersey | NJ | USA | Posted: 5:24 PM on 04.05.10 |
->> Pardon me for being a realist, but I don't think this awareness article is going to suddenly create more paid internships.
Rather, I think it may cause many companies to drop unpaid internships–even those already offered for summer 2010–rather than deal with potential legalities, penalties, and headaches. |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 9:43 PM on 04.05.10 |
->> When students pay to be taught by an institution and then in their internship they are still being taught, why is the internship sponsor not paid by the student and the institution was paid?
I think the answer to this question lays out the reason for unpaid internships.
I find that Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule to hold true from my experience in the industry. I wrote about it earlier http://www.stanleyleary.com/Newsletters/SepNewsletter.htm. It just takes a lot of time to become proficient. If someone will take a person under their wing and guide them the learning curve is often much faster paced than going it alone.
If a company and industry is capable of paying their interns I think they should. But this industry isn't very high paying until one is quite accomplished for the most part. We all have had to pay our dues.
An internship with the right people in the industry is often the key to a very successful career. Some mentors have much more to give to the intern than others. Interning with John Harrington will most likely ground someone who wants to freelance a lot better than interning with a newspaper.
Choose wisely and you can prosper. |
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Shawn Lynch, Photographer
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New York | New York | USA | Posted: 10:55 PM on 04.05.10 |
| ->> My question is, what's with the huge difference in the style of the photos run with the article? The first looks like a real photographer took it, the other looks like a reporter photo taken on the street with very little thought as to location or background. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 11:07 PM on 04.05.10 |
| ->> I think Jack's hit it on the head. If there is any question about whether an unpaid program could become a legal liability I see them getting axed, not converted to paid. |
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John Korduner, Photographer
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Baton Rouge | LA | United States | Posted: 11:53 PM on 04.05.10 |
->> In the current environment their popularity will only continue to grow. Continuous free labor is something that's just too tempting. The businesses will pass any liability onto unknowing students. You'll just see more releases like the Congressional one...
A) Unpaid labor without an educational purpose is illegal.
B) XX has no intention of educating or compensating for any labor it is provided. C) If asked, applicant will provide documentation of enrollment in a certified educational program to validate XXs otherwise illegal activities.
It's like going to a bar that accepts fake i.d.'s, but makes people sign affidavits stating they're real, or making illegal immigrants sign forms stating they're authorized to work here...it's a classic example of victimizing a victim to control their behavior. |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 10:25 AM on 04.06.10 |
->> I have applied for and been involved with several internships in college. I have taken 3 to date relating to photography since my sophomore year.
While many companies and papers are not in a position to pay for an intern to work there during these hard times, the alternative that makes it legal is for the intern to receive academic credit for the work they do.
Now that is all fine and dandy BUT with my school and most other schools, if you do an internship over the summer and receive any kind of academic credit for it, I have to pay for it. Now what is wrong with this? I am working...and paying to do that work instead of someone paying me? With my school, for ONE credit hour you pay $350 or so. With three credit hours to your name for a summer internship, you pay over $1,000. That does NOT include living expenses, travel or anything else. That is JUST to get the credit for doing the work.
In addition to what I have to pay just to get the experience, the college (which has no photography dept or even class relating to journalism much less photography specifically) requires that I have a faculty advisor who assigns readings and checks in on me as well as having to write papers and things during my time on the internship. So again, Im jumping through hoops of fire to please someone who knows nothing about what Im doing and cant even really help point me in the right direction, working 40 hours a week (for which I am paying to do) and doing hours of homework per week on top of it?
Some would argue that I am "paying" for the experience to work there but if I didnt have the money to have spent on my three internships and the internship didnt have the money to spend on me, I would be nowhere, by no fault of my own or the internship's.
I dont really know what to do to fix the system, but as it stands, everyone gets hurt.
Just my insight into it regarding my very recent experiences. |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 10:27 AM on 04.06.10 |
| ->> In addition to my above comment, and just to make clear. I am EXTREMELY glad I have participated in all three of my internships. They have shaped who I am as a person and made me a better photojournalist, but I'm way in the "hole" in terms of debt and partly because I couldn't make money during the summer to help get out of it. |
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John Korduner, Photographer
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Baton Rouge | LA | United States | Posted: 12:12 PM on 04.06.10 |
->> Jamey,
You've just articulated how unpaid internships work in the real world, as opposed to theory.
Internships are supposed to be symbiotic relationships, and you've successfully exhibited how they become parasitic. Your labor is supposed to serve as compensation for a company's investment in your education. In theory, the only charge the university should assess is administrative costs for the registrar...your labor is supposed to pay for the actual "coursework." In reality, the school's charge you full price for a course...and then farm your labor downtown for "extra credit."
This is identical to universities who contracted with various banks so the bursars would actively pitch specific loans to its students. I think an investigation by an uninterested party would reveal a suspicious relationship between donations to the university and who the "authorized" unpaid internship providers are. Consequently, if they weren't allowed, you'd see resources shift from tax deductible donations to labor costs.
The significant difference is that it's an excepted belief (whether real or perceived) that in addition to a grade, students are also given the right to list an internship on their resume. Just like paying fees to an honors association so you can list it on your resume and wear a sash at graduation...even though the only requirement for such an "honor" is a minimum GPA and a check written to XX. |
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Jesse Jones, Photographer
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Ponte Vedra Beach | Fl | USA | Posted: 4:44 PM on 04.06.10 |
| ->> When I first started out I did an unpaid internship with my local daily. The experience I gained and the clips that I got enabled me to land my staff position at the weekly that I am still employed at. We have done some unpaid internships for both writers and photographers. One of our current writers we hired just after his internship and graduation. Like everything else if you know what the parameters are going into it and you can make it work for you it can be beneficial for everyone. I know my editor would rather be able to pay our interns he usually tries to also give them freelance assignments during their internship to help offset their expenses. |
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Aleksi Lepisto, Photographer
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Sacramento | CA | United States | Posted: 6:28 AM on 05.16.10 |
->> Aren't interns just being taught a valuable lesson about business, in that, if you are low on the totem pole, someone can use your services and undervalue your production?
In essence, the schools are allowing, and in many cases forcing, students to experience the true nature of the economic system by devaluing work, and instead labeling it as "experience" and private companies are jumping on board, to their benefit.
The students are getting a lesson in the very practice that people complain drives the photography market down. They're shooting, working for free, and "experience" and the images are going somewhere to make money, without them being rewarded monetarily.
But since it's backed by formal education - this is somehow noble, versus someone just shooting for fun, and free? I'd argue the education could be of the same value. This may get my flamed, but when you break it down to the core, I find it strikingly similar.
I'm not casing judgement on either side, simply stating it as obviously as I see it - which is that I fail to see much of a difference, other than mere perception.
Of course, paid internships are a different story - but I would never take a job to learn and not be paid, simply because I know, even in the most basic forms, I am worth at least the cost of food. I have had numerous jobs, even manual labor, and each one has at least had a starting pay grade that, while very cheap, and not enough to survive on, associated some value with the work I was doing. I think it's strange to remove the money, replace it with "experience" that will lead to a certification, (which doesn't guarantee a job) and send them on their way - while someone working for free and learning on their own, is criticized.
Maybe someone can share a point that will open my eyes. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:15 AM on 05.16.10 |
->> Aleksi, your eyes are wide open. what you stated is nothing but the truth and the "dirty little not so secret" part of journalism schools. I totally agree with you there is no difference in someone working for free for the "noble" cause of education and someone who just loves taking photos giving their stuff away. this is another case of academia talking out of both sides of their mouths.....I won't even go into my rant about how they mislead these students into thinking they might be gainfully employed after spending four years and thousands of dollars to get the degree. it would be interesting to know how many photojournalism grads from the class of 2010 actually get jobs in the field. Two percent?
Five percent? what do you think that stat will show? |
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