| Sign in: |
| Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features. |
|
|
|
|
|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
NCAA gets SERIOUS!
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
 |
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:16 AM on 03.24.10 |
->> Well looks as though someone's "work around" got them canned from the tourney last week. Received this email today along with my Regional tournament info...
"Please make note of the following policy. There were issues at two locations in the first week of the tournament, and in one instance, one photo agency had their credentials revoked because they continued to use a private wireless router after being told to turn it off.
**UNAUTHORIZED WIRELESS DEVICES**
Please be advised that no unauthorized wireless access points, routers, or other RF (radio frequency) devices are permitted within XXXXXXXXX. This equipment will cause interference with existing wireless networks that are vital to the operation of visiting media and staff. Failure to comply may result in loss of credential." |
|
Michael Granse, Photographer
|
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 10:23 AM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> Other RF devices? Using a strict interpretation of this rule a Pocket Wizard would also be prohibited. |
|
Matthew Sauk, Photographer
|
Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 10:23 AM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> So when will someone break this cartel apart? We let them get to powerful. |
|
George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 10:50 AM on 03.24.10 |
->> PWs operate on a different frequency than wi-fi computer signals and are not the problem. I've never seen PWs banned in these kind of situations.
And Matthew, I'm not going to get into the NCAA charges argument, but if you were a provider of a wireless network that people are paying you to use -- like the NCAA is during the tournament -- and someone set up their own network that causes problems and the people paying you complain, you would be asking the offending network to be shut down as well. |
|
Michael Granse, Photographer
|
Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 10:50 AM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> Speaking of interference, what about the 14,267 cell phones in the pockets of spectators, coaches, photogrpahers, and other persons present? Cell phones are RF devices, and a growing number of them are also WiFi capable. |
|
George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 10:57 AM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> Cell phones, too, work on different frequencies. For the wi-fi in them to be a problem they have to be connected to a network and with only the NCAA's password-protected network available they won't be connecting to anything, so no problem. And no cell phone is powerful enough that if you create an ad hoc network with it's wireless it won't really cause any problems. |
|
Eric Canha, Photographer
|
Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 10:59 AM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> Chuck Al Gore called.... He's on it. Free Wi-Fi for all! |
|
Erik Markov, Photographer
|
Kokomo | IN | | Posted: 10:59 AM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> "vital to the operation of visiting media and staff" shouldn't that read "vital to the NCAA making a buttload of money that we really didn't do much to earn?" |
|
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
|
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:00 AM on 03.24.10 |
->> ...but the cell phones wreak havoc on the use of the wireless phone card.....8)
that you can take to the bank! |
|
George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:07 AM on 03.24.10 |
->> Cell phones will pretty much make your data card worthless in most cases.
Erik, actually the charge for wi-fi for the writers is reasonable. It's the charge to photographers for a connection that is the sticking point. Photographers are not allowed on the wireless but must pay a lot more for a hard-line connection. |
|
Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
|
Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 11:58 AM on 03.24.10 |
->> just asking a honest question here:
why again do the photographers here care about the cost of transmitting from the NCAA tournament? not trying to stir anything up at all- but who cares? the newspaper or wire service can decide if transmitting from the site is necessary and worth it. if they didn't think it was worth having the images quickly, they wouldn't pay. it's the NCAA's party. why should media outlets be entitled to free internet?
the argument that the service is normally free is weak. it's free when the team/school/venue is having a regular game that they would like to promote. the NCAA tournament must not feel that they need to accommodate every media request they get. clearly, they don't really care if the still photography group cries foul. sounds like a 'take it or leave it' scenario. but again, i wonder why the shooters here actually have an opinion about it. it's not as if anyone here is paying the bill, right? i'd bet that most here think they are underpaid by their employer. nobody would be complaining if their company threw a little more salary their way, right? so why are photographers all the sudden worried about their employer having to pay this internet expense?
there is probably a good reason- but can someone explain it?
that said, obama's victory party in chicago required a huge fee to be paid by media that wanted access to the media tent- a situation that also raised eyebrows. that seems different somehow. that is a public official having a public party/celebration for public office. i would argue that media there should have been better accommodated due to the world interest in an event that has broader significance to most of the country and much of the world.
this is a private basketball contest. seems different. |
|
Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
 |
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 12:05 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> Let's not forget: It's their house, it's their rules.
We may not like them, obviously some of you can complain, but the fact of the matter is--- Events set up logistics, infrastructure, pay personnel, rent the building and other facilities like media workrooms in hotels and provide other services (like stats, quotes, coordination, etc.) JUST FOR THE MEDIA.
They could charge for any and all of that. But for the most part, they don't.
So if you want to "play with the Big Boys" fees for Internet access is simply the cost of doing business.
I've often thought of doing a series of stories titled "How Things Work" (a sort of take off on a Discovery Channel program) discussing how various things in this business actually work. But if I did, where would the fun in that be? Then I wouldn't get to read people contradicting me on the message board or sending me (they think) anonymous insulting mails.
Enjoy covering hoops for those fortunate to be assigned. Just pay the Internet charges. And go out and make some great storytelling images!
Mahalo!
(Now if you want to get into REALLY blatant price-gouging --- How about hotels in host Super Bowl cities jacking up their room rates by double or triple AND making it a 4-day minimum stay? Sounds like another chapter in "How Things Work"!) |
|
Derek Montgomery, Photographer
|
Duluth | MN | USA | Posted: 12:06 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> Mike,
It's not totally private. The scholarships, venues, coaches' salaries and more that the NCAA relies on to put on this "private basketball contest" are paid for many times through public money. You could argue it's in the same league as Obama's victory party.
Like it was mentioned 190 times in the other thread on this topic, by and large a vast majority of people are not complaining about having to pay. It's the amount photographers have to pay that is the real grudge here. The $12 for writers is reasonable, but $350 or whatever it is for photographers is exorbitant. |
|
George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 12:29 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> Mike (and Bert)
I've often said I don't mind paying a fee that is reasonable. And I don't mind paying a little premium over the writers because I require a hard-line connection over wireless for the network I set up to wire in all the cameras.
The question and objection would be to what is a reasonable fee and the disparity between what is charged to photographers and for writers. For the amount my organization paid a couple years ago for one wired connection for 3 computers, more than 40 writers could have paid for access for both days.
That is the objection. Is what I'm doing cost the arena/NCAA 45 times what a writer is doing?
And this is not relevant to the original post about not having another wireless network set up. I agree, the NCAA "owns" the arena for that week and sets up a wi-fi network for the writers and they don't want interference. They have that right. |
|
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
|
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:34 PM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> Just to be clear I didn't start this post as a complaint. It was more of a warning that finding a work around to the fee could land you in trouble. |
|
Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
|
Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 12:39 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> i see what you're saying derek.
i thought about the point you make in terms of the price for print vs images. this is why i thought the NCAA doesn't really seem to care about the images. i think the images are a sticking point with the NCAA anyway, right? aren't they kind of fussy when it comes to images of their players outside the scope of daily news publications? i thought i recalled reading about this somewhere- likely here.
i'm guessing that this huge fee is to absolutely weed-out those who don't 'require' on-site x-mitting. if the AP were the only one's to pay for on-site internet, i would think that would be fine with them.
is it exorbitant? absolutely. but there must be a specific motivation that goes beyond trying to get rich on internet fees. this fee wasn't an idea snatched out of thin air. it is probably a thoughtful part of event management that is designed to meet a certain purpose. |
|
Adam Brimer, Photographer, Assistant
|
Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 1:16 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> i'll be in st louis and will be using the NCAA hardline. i used it in providence. "cost of doing business" is correct.
anyone else heading to st louis? |
|
Phil Hawkins, Photographer
|
Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 2:11 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> I'm not sure I understand this; is the NCAA saying that in order to transmit your images you MUST use THEIR network?
So, if I have an AT&T wireless connection I, say, normally use in airports, and can get a signal in an arena for the tourney, I am NOT allowed to use it? (The claim of interference is BS). This is
a. restraint of trade
b. a monopoly
c. not legal (I would think).
Robert, you are correct insofar as using THEIR network is concerned, but I think the question is whether they have the right to restrict other modes of internet access they do not control. If people were accessing their network w/ wireless routers somehow, then they have a point. But I don't think that distinction has been clarified in this thread.
How is SI handling this issue? Don't they normally have their own upload facilities for events of this magnitude? |
|
Steve Apps, Photographer
|
Madison | WI | USA | Posted: 2:53 PM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> In Jacksonville last weekend for the first and second round I transmitted photos from the media space for reporters since it had more room. I used my Verizon card and it worked relatively fast. The internet police were walking around and saw what I was doing. They didn't say anything. With my cameras on the table next to me, they knew I wasn't a reporter. |
|
Mike Janes, Photographer
|
Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 3:02 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> Agree with Phil, if it's getting into their network and screwing things up that's one thing, but not if using your own wireless connection like the AT&T one. Even with "their house, their rules" you'd think that if you have something that works and does not interfere with their routers it can't be forced legally. Using two different systems is not interference and just making it up if that's the case.
Puts new meaning to the word runner...have them run down the street to the hotel and upload from there. |
|
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
|
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 3:04 PM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> I also used my wireless card in jacksonville. it worked great until there was actually a game going on then it didn't work at all. fortunately the games were early enough to where it wasn't a problem. no one questioned the use of the "stick" as we call it. this saved us $350. I am pretty budget conscious for my paper, as we all should be in these times. $350 could buy or repair equipment down the road. houston will be a different problem with the dreaded 10 pm est start....no wireless card there for sure. |
|
Dannie Walls, Photographer
|
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:22 PM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> I used my blackberry/aircard in Dayton and no one said anything but then again there were only 3 photogs working in the room i was in. Good connection and no problems. |
|
Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
|
McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 3:35 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> "why again do the photographers here care about the cost of transmitting from the NCAA tournament?"
If it costs too much to cover an event then it might mean fewer photographers employed to cover said event.
"Events set up logistics... (like stats, quotes, coordination, etc.) JUST FOR THE MEDIA."
And in return they get PUBLICITY which means more dollars in their pockets.
I would love to see a few events boycotted by everyone in the media just to see those in power at the NCAA (or the NBA or whatever) come begging for forgiveness.
In truth they need us (for the publicity) just as much as we need them (for the content). |
|
AJ Mast, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Indianapolis | IN | USA | Posted: 4:07 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> I think in the interest of truth the warning should have read like this:
**UNAUTHORIZED WIRELESS DEVICES**
Please be advised that no unauthorized wireless access points, routers, or other RF (radio frequency) devices are permitted within XXXXXXXXX. This equipment will cause the NCAA to loose un-vital revenue, and may make it economically feasible for a publication to cover its team(s). Failure to comply may result in loss of credential." |
|
George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 4:16 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> Phil, et al,
You are confusing two issues.
There is no restriction on using your USB modem, tethered cell phone, carrier pigeon, marathon runner, etc. to get images out.
What they are saying in Chuck's initial post is you cannot set up your own 802.11 wireless network.
So you can plug a USB modem into your computer and give it a go, but if you try to use a CradlePoint or MiFi unit to create a wireless network to connect then they can ask that it be shut down. The NCAA sets up a wireless network for the writers for which the NCAA/arena pay for the infrastructure and then the writers pay for that and they do not want interference. Again, they have the right.
For photographers if you want to use the NCAA network you must pay for a wired connection. Again, the argument is the "fair cost" charge for what photographers pay versus what the writers pay. The NCAA/arena argument is that they have to bring in extra infrastructure (switches, cabling, fiber etc) to set up the photographers' workroom for the wired connections and must pay extra for the bandwidth used by photographers. The counter is that the charge is simply too high. I argue that many writers these days are uploading blog video etc. and may be streaming video of other games from courtside so the bandwidth can be pretty high on their side as well.
You are welcome to try to use a cellular modem in such an event but I would never trust one in such a situation. Too much interference and the chance that you may never get an image out is not a risk I'm willing to take.
My organization wires in 10+ cameras to an editor and we send 200+ images per day from the Final Four so we have to pay for the access -- however, the charges can be outrageous some years (in Atlanta a few years ago for Internet access and VLAN connections at courtside and in the overhead catwalk positions the total cost was over $3K.
And, in response to the above question, SI pays the NCAA for access the same as everyone else. |
|
Steve Apps, Photographer
|
Madison | WI | USA | Posted: 4:22 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> I'm with Chuck on saving our paper money. Newspapers these days are looking for reason not to send a staff photographer to events like these. High costs gives the editors reason to "just use AP photos."
Chuck, for some reason my card worked during games. I did have early afternoon games so there was no pressure to get the photos out. |
|
Stew Milne, Photographer
|
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 4:38 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> In Providence for the 1st and 2nd rounds about 6 media outlets paid for the hardwire for photographers. They also had a wireless network available. Both of these networks required a password and each media outlet was given a different login and password.
The IT guy running the show explained that we had to have so many security precautions because many of today's cell phones will pick up a wi-fi network and connect to it, even if you are not actually using your cell phone. The iphone is the biggest culprit. Also, the ipod touch will connect to any open wi-fi system.
So take a arena full of people with cell phones that connect automatically to any wi-fi and you have a big drag on the network.
I don't agree with the NCAA banning you from using your own wireless card though. You pay for it, why can't you use it. You're not using their network, so what's the problem?
-sM |
|
Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
|
Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 6:50 PM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> They are NOT BANNING you from using your wireless (cell) data card! |
|
Andrew Knapik, Photographer, Assistant
|
Lincoln Park | MI | USA | Posted: 7:05 PM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> Seems the NCAA is not doing this for all of its championships. I just got my notification of an approved credential for the NCAA Frozen 4 Hockey in Detroit. The email states : Free wireless internet access is provided in the press area at Ford Field. |
|
Jeremy Harmon, Photo Editor, Photographer
|
Salt Lake City | UT | USA | Posted: 8:50 PM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> I'm lucky. My office is directly across the street from the venue for the West Regional. I'll be on site to edit for our shooters. At the end of each half I'm going to get out of my chair at the arena and walk to my desk at the office to drop the photos in our system. With as hectic as it will be, the fresh air will do me some good. |
|
Margaret Bowles, Photographer
|
Houston | TX | | Posted: 9:57 PM on 03.24.10 |
| ->> I just wanted to mention for those shooting the NCAA Regionals in Houston that my Verizon air card did not work in the photographers room in Reliant Stadium during the NCAA regionals a couple of years ago. Only those who paid for the hardwire access could transmit. I had to go to Starbucks a few blocks away to transmit photos. Maybe it won't be that way this go around, but you should check it out ahead of time to see if it works if you plan to rely on your aircard. |
|
Nik Habicht, Photographer
|
Levittown | PA | USA | Posted: 10:45 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> George Bridges asked: "Is what I'm doing cost the arena/NCAA 45 times what a writer is doing?"
I don't know about cost -- but I have some lengthy Word files on my computer. 5,000 words (probably more than any one writer will file) comes in at 100 kilobytes of data. I don't know what size image files you're moving, but I'd guess a single image would far exceed that....
Now if the writers are moving a ton of video in addition to the words, you might have a point. If most of them are only moving text though..... |
|
Stew Milne, Photographer
|
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 10:48 PM on 03.24.10 |
->> Sorry, I posted about the "banning wireless cards" before reading that part about how the NCAA wasn't banning those. My mistake.
So what the NCAA is saying is that you can't utilize a hardwire and then add you own wireless router to it, so others can get the $350 hardwire feed for free. Does anyone know if this is what happened and prompted the NCAA to send out this memo?
At my venue last week, the regular arena wifi had been disabled. I didn't see anyone trying to use a network card though, so don't know if that was blocked as well. |
|
Dennis Wierzbicki, Photographer
|
Plainfield | IL | USA | Posted: 5:22 AM on 03.25.10 |
->> Stew, I can't speak from experience at the NCAA regionals, but my Sprint Cell Stick often hasn't worked at large events and I've presumed this has been because of all the other cell phone traffic. It's only "blocked" to the extent that you can't get a usable signal or service.
This is especially true of football games where there are 50,000+ fans all tweeting, emailing, talking, texting simultaneously. You try to connect and get......nothing......
However, I've also seen cell service interruption or impairment at NCAA hoops games where there may only be 10,000 fans. Just depends on the number and capacity of the local cell towers and providers I suppose.
If one is trying to get images out during the game or at halftime, leaving the premises to go to a Starbucks or other off-site location isn't really an option, either. |
|
Return to --> Message Board Main Index
|