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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
The NCAA Vampires are back... data line fees
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:28 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> This is truly what they mean by "March Madness". The annual NCAA rip off of news organizations begins. Data line fees for writers $12/day.....data line fee for photographers $350.
Yeah, I know we send larger files but gimme a break....it all ends up going out the same pipe in the end. Wish the NPPA would get involved in this and try and help us out. Or maybe, just maybe the government should look into antitrust violations....... |
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Ryan Kelly, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Newport News | VA | USA | Posted: 1:39 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> Good lord, that's ridiculous. Wouldn't it be significantly cheaper at that point to use an aircard instead and just bypass the NCAA pipeline? Or is that somehow prevented? |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:42 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> Depends what arena you're in. Sometimes aircards work and sometimes they don't. you roll the dice, you take your chances. |
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Jim Pierce, Photographer
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Waltham | MA | USA | Posted: 1:48 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Chuck,
Does this include the NIT? I will be at UCONN tomorrow night and might need to make some other arrangments.
Jim |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:09 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Jim, don't know about the NIT. I figure the NCAA will screw as many people as they can....so I wouldn't be shocked if they do. I mean it's not like they aren't making any money on this deal anyway...
"-In 1999, the NCAA signed a $6 billion contract with CBS allowing it to televise the tournament through 2013. Coca-Cola recently coughed up $500 million to be the NCAA's official soft drink." |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Owings Mills | MD | USA | Posted: 2:28 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> What has it been in the past? |
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Ryan Kelly, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Newport News | VA | USA | Posted: 2:31 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> I don't even understand the reasoning behind this. One would think they could stand to make more money by encouraging distribution of images, leading to increased exposure, than the relatively paltry fee of a few hundred they'll gather from photographers (agencies) that can afford the fee. |
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Dave Prelosky, Photographer
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Lower Burrell | Pa | US | Posted: 2:33 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> In line with Chuck's post above, and as a point of order, has anyone ever seen an annual financial report for the NCAA?
They're either;
A. a private entity that has no disclosure requirement,
B. a non-profit with IRS disclosure requirements, or
C. a public corporation with SEC obligations.
Someone has to know what they bring in, and perhaps more important, where it goes. |
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Brad Mills, Photographer
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Falls Church | VA | USA | Posted: 3:46 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> Also, if you are shooting in an area that normally has wi-fi available, it will be shut down for the tournament so you will either have to pay up, get an air card, or go to a local Panera Bread or other local free zone. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 4:59 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> I just shot two DII regionals. The schools gave us free access to their wi-fi, may sure that the system worked.
One location, West Liberty State University, fed us hot roast beef, gourmet cookies, and all the free pop you could drink. Just like their tag line: "I choose Division II". |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 5:02 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> In my limited experience ...
Trust me on trying to an "air card" during a large event---extremely slow and often no use at all.
I've tried using Verizon's wireless data network at various events to mostly frustrating results --- NFL games, MLB playoffs and even NCAA Regionsl games. Once the game end and the crowds are gone service picks up.
Some colleagues have reported good results xmitting during games but can you take the chance that it won't work (or is too slow to be of real use)?
You should see the cost of data for the Super Bowl. Or the Academy Awards. Now THAT is pretty expensive. |
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Sean D. Elliot, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Norwich | CT | USA | Posted: 6:03 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> Jim, you should contact UConn directly ... Kyle Muncy is the SID for the men ... 860-486-3531 ... Gampel has a VERY fast ethernet set-up and a useless wi-fi (it has a firewall that won't allow large files to go through) ... but the ethernet has always been free. the only problem is, there are only about 4 jacks in the photo area, so it's either get their early or hope for strong sense of community. The building is also a bunker, so no air card will get out of the press area (but might from the court). Enjoy, best lit arena in the game :-) |
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Sean D. Elliot, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Norwich | CT | USA | Posted: 6:07 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> just my little story ... at the women's final 4 in St. Louis last year, night of the semi-finals, I was getting better transmission speeds on my Verizon air card than the photographers who'd payed the NCAA the $300 for the dedicated line.
The techs came through the next day during practice and explained that nobody had thought to run more than one DSL line out of the press area so everyone was sharing one small pipe. They fixed it and speeds were better the night of the final.
it's buyer beware, the NCAA may set the price, but it's somebody in the local arena who makes actual decisions about how fast it will be. If you're gonna pony-up for the NCAA line, keep your fingers crossed, bring the air card just in case. |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 6:08 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> man this sounds like a mess. |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 6:15 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> I used my Sprint AirCard at the University of Phoenix Stadium last year for the Elite Eight and Sweet Sixteen. It worked great from the photo workroom and saved the paper some cash.
That said, I do recall having at times spotty cell phone service in the Edward Jones Dome, but did not test my aircard as it has free wifi for Missouri-Illinois Football. |
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John Howley, Photographer
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Circleville | OH | USA | Posted: 7:42 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> To follow up on Dave's query from above. The NCAA is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.
In 2008 the NCAA had revenues of $657,760,383 and expenses of $610,291,787. They made $548 million from TV rights.
Myles Brand earned $1.6 million as head of the organization.
(That's just from a quick skim of their IRS 990.) |
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Dave Prelosky, Photographer
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Lower Burrell | Pa | US | Posted: 7:57 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Thanks John. I found some of that after my first post. I've gotta remember to stop treating everything like a Facebook post.
I would also wonder why the NCAA with a seeming $47 million dollar surplus needs to add $350 access fees to their championship event, but I believe it's probably a somewhat subversive method to restrict access to common services. |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 8:20 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> I imagine these fees have more to do with limiting access than with covering costs or even turning it into a profit center. Frankly, I am sure there are more than enough photographers and outlets willing to cover the tournament (or the Super Bowl, or the Academy Awards). It's not like any of these events need the free publicity.
At least this way, they can pretend they're not charging for access. |
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Nhat V. Meyer, Photographer
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 9:06 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> I can't tell you how pissed off I am about this, it's not my money, but the general principle of coming in and shutting off any wifi signals so that we are forced to pay this outrageous fee. And if your team loses in the first game and you go home and you don't cover the second game, guess what, it's still $350... (which is also a reason to NOT book a hotel through the NCAA - they force you to pay for four nights, so if the team you are covering loses the first game and you go home you still have to pay for the last two days).
I wish there was a way we could all share a line, or set up a hub or something like that... I'm not opposed to paying for the wifi, but $350 is totally ridiculous. I've tried a verizon card and it just didn't move any data, it was fine before the game but not once the game started it didn't budge. If it's an afternoon game I just leave and transmit for free from my hotel room's wifi. I guess one could try and share the reporters wifi since that is only $12...
Is there any tech people out there that can truly justify them charging that much? When I talked with them a couple of years ago they said that was how much it cost to put in lines that would push that much data - I think that is total BS... at the Winter Olympics they charged $500 for 30 days of access... if they had adopted the NCAA's $350 for every two days then Vancouver would have charged $5,250! Either way if you cover all three rounds you're looking at $1,050 in wifi charges - unbelievable especially the way newspapers budgets are these days!
oh yeah and to top it off, I didn't have an ethernet cord and I had to beg them to borrow one - for $350 we should at least get a freaking free ethernet cord! |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 9:20 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> Are these fees the same for the women's side too? 1st and 2nd rounds? |
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Bruce Twitchell, Photographer
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Coeur d'Alene | ID | USA | Posted: 9:31 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Ryan Kelly said----> " One would think they could stand to make more money by encouraging distribution of images, leading to increased exposure, than the relatively paltry fee of a few hundred they'll gather from photographers (agencies) that can afford the fee."
Ryan, isn't that the same excuse the people give when they are trying to get photographers to work for free? It will be great exposure for you?
The sad part of all of this is that it really cements the fact that Universities and education as a whole is no longer about Education, it is about money. Getting the students in the seats (both at events and in the classrooms) means money. Getting media coverage apparently wasn't making enough money, so now they charge the media who is covering the events. If you have been following the news much lately, all over the country there are HUGE cuts to the education budgets and schools are scrambling to get funding wherever they can.
Don't like the fee? Don't pay it and go to a plan B to transmit the photos. |
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Nhat V. Meyer, Photographer
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 9:46 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> Phil - should be the same cost for Women... it was two years ago... Bruce, I do plan B when I can but when they schedule games on deadline such as 9 pm or later, unfortunately we are locked into their fees, and they know that... |
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Daniel Putz, Photographer
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Owings Mills | MD | USA | Posted: 9:49 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Nhat, you would be correct. I've been talking with a friend of mine who's a tech at an ISP. It's as easy as flicking a switch to make the 'pipe' larger to the venue. Even if special routing equipment had to be rented to facilitate it, the cost of $350/line is exorbitant.
I'm sure the costs differ from venue to venue. In a large city, in a newer arena...the bandwidth available it far larger than a more remote, and an older venue. If it has to be increased, the costs would be far cheaper than in a place with a very limited connection.
It's a pure money grab. Non-profit organization, my butt. |
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Damon Tarver, Photographer
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 11:34 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> Wow. At least I know now before hand. I was expecting free wireless same as always. I like plan B as well. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Indiana | IN | USA | Posted: 1:21 AM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> I recently experienced similar issues with transmitting and finally gave up. I drove up the street to McDonald's. They had free WiFi. It was reasonably fast and I got my work done and transmitted on time. |
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Tim Casey, Photographer
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Gainesville | FL | USA | Posted: 1:45 AM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> You can get away with using a writer's login, as long as you only transmit a couple of images via email. Anything more than that, they will disable the login. |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 3:01 AM on 03.16.10 |
->> I was a bit reluctant to pay the fee, and after finding some very cool photographers via "The Guide" (a plug for out amazingly helpful SportsShooter website) who said my aircard wouldn't work in the photo area and I would have spotty coverage in the arena, I plunked down my credit card, bent over and paid the fee.
Personally, I don't like it. But the way I see it is my boss wants photos before the game and at halftime, and that is the cost of doing business. For a staffer, it's not my fight.
I am a very frugal person (you have to be with five mouths to feed and one lousy newspaper income) and I would love to chance it and find a line not being used and save the cost. But you know what, let the bill payers deal with it. If they don't like the cost, don't send us. Or live with the fact that there will not be photos at half time and there will be a gallery up via the air card we have as soon as we can.
Yes, I think the amount they are charging is too much. But it ain't my dime (well it is until I get my expense check). |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 8:47 AM on 03.16.10 |
->> I've never been in one of these situations but have any of you tried or considered a cellular repeater/amplifier? It would seem to me that the reason that you have so much trouble is because the cell tower becomes swamped with traffic. One solution is to be able to hit towers that are further away. I could be wrong..... but I'm thinking that a mi-fi card and a cellular repeater/amp would allow you to push a signal to the next tower or beyond. The cost of amp isn't far off from the cost of the connection that the NCAA is charging BUT with Mi-Fi you could share the connecting with a few shooters and recover the cost AND have the hardware for future events.
http://www.alternativewireless.com/cellular-antennas/wilson-antennas/wilson...
I know that my first cell phone was a 3 watt brick and back then if I called 911 from New Bedford, MA I would get RI 911. 3 watts on a cellphone is A LOT of power..... Only consideration would be to put the mini mag antenna somewhere in the media room AWAY from people so as to not be cooking future generations..... |
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Al Goldis, Photographer
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East Lansing | MI | USA | Posted: 11:01 AM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> The worst part of this is the way the NCAA commandeers the host site's internet facilities. I'm sure there are some sites where new lines need to be run but in many cases the host already has the necessary setup. And either way, I seriously doubt the host site is seeing anything close to the $350 per line the NCAA rakes in. |
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Jim Davidson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:12 PM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> Phil, I shot the women's NCAA tournament last year, though the Sweet 16 and they did not charge for internet at the venues I worked. Reports are that they did charge at the women's Final Four. Someone also posted here that they charged at earlier rounds two years ago, so your mileage may vary. |
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Adam Brimer, Photographer, Assistant
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Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 3:57 PM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> Has anyone been to the Dunkin Donuts Arena? I'll be there this week for Round 1 & 2. |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 4:02 PM on 03.16.10 |
->> Yes, I shoot there all the time, since I live in Providence. What would you like to know? Send a PM and I'll answer all your questions.
-sM |
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Adam Brimer, Photographer, Assistant
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Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 5:15 PM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> 945pm deadline... i think i'm gonna bite it and go for the data line. i'd rather not NOT have the photos because of a slow air card. |
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Adam Brimer, Photographer, Assistant
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Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 5:16 PM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> sorry... not 945pm deadline... 945pm game time. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:17 PM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> adam, smart move. if I had a 9:45 start we would be forking over the dough also. but for te first time in years I get the 7:20 start. |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 6:28 PM on 03.16.10 |
->> I'll be shooting all of the first and second rounds in Providence, so the data line will be worth it. Luckily my agency is paying for it.
I shoot at the Dunk all the time and use their free wireless, but I'm thinking they will be shutting that down for the tourney. Does anyone know if the NCAA allows photogs to have laptops on the court? I know they aren't allowing backboard remotes or remotes on the basket anywhere.
-sM |
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Sean D. Elliot, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Norwich | CT | USA | Posted: 6:38 PM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> just got a note saying the 1st 2nd round women's games have free wifi ... but you have to pay if you want a hard wired line ... guessing that will be one heck of a bottleneck come Sunday night. |
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Joel Hawksley, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Athens | OH | USA | Posted: 6:52 PM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> Chuck, you shooting at the Dunk on Thursday? |
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Stew Milne, Photographer
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Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 7:05 PM on 03.16.10 |
| ->> Why would Chuck be in PVD? If he is, I'd love to meet him face-to-face, and maybe get a beer. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 11:12 PM on 03.16.10 |
->> No matter where I am at, whether it's be at the Peterson (free wifi), or on the road (accident scene, etc), I have moved to a completely wireless setup with my iPhone.
My laptop and it are setup ad-hoc and it acts as a wireless router - no tethering needed. I get about T-1 speed on a 3G version.
Granted, I had to "open" my iPhone up to make this possible with software (AT&T doesn't make this feature available on the phone even though the technology is already there), but ever since it has performed well enough that I sometimes forget I am using AT&T over the air. I can even make calls, send text and use apps without the connection being lost.
Oh, and by comparison, it is way faster than their USB "aircard". That thing is terrible, in my opinion. I have no idea why, but side by side it's not even a fair race.
If anyone wants info on where to get the software to open up your iPhone, send me a message. It's not too difficult. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:49 AM on 03.17.10 |
| ->> jason, that truly sounds great. obviously you haven't dealt with big events. but the real truth is that it doesn't matter what service you have...when the network is jammed up you can't transmit. period. as bert said earlier. ever been at a big concert and tried to make a phone call? or text? it doesn't fly. you are giving very bad advice. yes, I'll roll the dice this weekend. was given info that wireless cards work..it's a sub-region...probably will work. if not, we'll fork over the dough...but come on...just 'cause your phone works in a suburb in penn state has no bearing on this conversation, |
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Adam Brimer, Photographer, Assistant
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Knoxville | TN | USA | Posted: 1:56 AM on 03.17.10 |
| ->> see ya there stew! |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 2:31 AM on 03.17.10 |
->> Amen Chuckster!
Good example...for that matter try making a mobile call during a ballgame or any large gathering of people.
Look on TV during a baseball game when they go to the centerfield camera: look at all of the idiots on their phones waving at the camera. They are all helping to take up the available service.
As I said, there are instances where the cellular service at games has been fairly speedy...my colleague Bob Deutsch experienced fast Verizon data service during a home Patriots game. I can't explain it...maybe Verizon parked a couple of those mobile cell towers in the stadium parking lot.
But I have been hosed many more times during big events than not when I counted on Verizon data service for making deadlines...
Examples off the top of my head...
-Last year's NLCS (@Dodger Stadium) and ALCS (@Angels Stadium)
-NCAA Regional two years back (@at the Anaheim)
-Last season during a Chargers home game when the photo wifi slowed to a crawl (turned out a visiting web guy was uploading video clogging up the pipe)
-During "Bonds Watch" in San Fracisco, LA and San Diego
-Halftime of a USC home game last year
All of these incidents had in common:
-Fairly strong signal strength
-Works great before the game starts
-Once the game starts: FTP would connect, upload would start, then slow to a crawl and often just quit
-Within 30 minutes or less after the game was over and the crowds had left upload speeds increaed
Obviously some here that dispute this. But in my limited experience, cell data networks are too flakey to count on at big events.
(An unnamed publication thought they could save a few hundred dollars at an awards show at Staples Center a year or so ago...had their shooter edit and xmit using a data card...the guy was begging to "plug in" to any dsl modem or router he could within 30 minutes.)
My point is...the NCAA, Motion Picture Academy, Staples Center telecomm, NFL, et all charge for a service and paying for that service is just the cost of doing business. Whether you or your newspaper chooses to pay it...that's up to them.
Roll the dice and see if Verizon or Sprint's data networks are open enough during the a game where you have a tight deadline... it's a gamble in my experience.
Yes it seems over priced. Yes it seems these organizations seem to look upon them as revenue stream.
Will it change?
(Sorry in advance for typos. Writing this on the iPhone while having a late-night dinner with the family.)
Mahalo! |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 3:44 AM on 03.17.10 |
->> @ Chuck - By the way, I wasn't giving "advice". I was stating my experience. Your comment referring to a "suburb in penn state" is a little uncalled for. I am confused as to how the city of Pittsburgh is a suburb of Penn State (that's in Beaver county, by the way). I won't even touch your, "you haven't dealt with big events" stab.
The fact is, I was offering up an "option" that had NOT been mentioned. This is not advice. But, if it makes you feel better to belittle someone who was offering their "two cents" in case someone would have a need - so be it. You seem pretty popular on these boards so who is to argue?
So, since you posted a complaint over fees and have yet to offer any solution (other than additional complaints over the price that is charged) - I question why in the world you would comment on my post in that fashion to begin with? With your experience at big events - wouldn't you post solutions?
I, gave an example. You, took time out of your evening to find an issue as to why it had no relevance to the conversation.
As you seem to be one of the more "professional" and "five-star" members here, it puzzles me as to why $350 is such a big deal when some of the best photographers can command such a high day-rate and the newer photgraphers need castrated for taking smaller gigs.
So, to anyone who thinks that my post was entirely out of the context of the conversation, I apologize.
To you, you might want to take advice we have all received at some point in our life. "If you have nothing constructive or nice to say, say nothing."
Someday, I hope to be as seasoned as you and have dealt with so many big events that I can do nothing more than complain about other's opinions. I also hope to be at that point when the NCAA's fees aren't such an issue. Frankly, Chuck, the two don't match up.
As always, it's an open forum. Sometimes, though - it's not all that constructive. That is a shame for newer members.
Funny thing though. You act as if my post was going to convince every photographer to run out and buy an iPhone and do what I did. Hilarious. It was just an option. Obviously, based on your opinion, one that wasn't really welcomed. I guess I didn't read the fine print. |
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Joseph Zimmerman, Photographer
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Howard | Pa | USA | Posted: 7:39 AM on 03.17.10 |
| ->> FYI. Penn State's Main Campus is in Centre County not Beaver. The football team plays in Beaver Stadium. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 8:07 AM on 03.17.10 |
| ->> @ Joseph - LOL, I was caught up in the moment. You're right. Thanks. |
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Tim Vizer, Photographer
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Belleville | IL | USA | Posted: 9:58 AM on 03.17.10 |
->> I also was at Women's Final Four in St. Louis last year. Used Verizon Air Card to send images to MCT with no troubles. I remember as Sean said about the other shooters who paid for the hard-wired lines complaining about the s-l-o-w service.
But, despite that isolated glitch, the only absolutely reliable, 100% sure way to get a good solid connection for what we do is to pay the money and have a hard-wired connection. Cellular networks are too iffy, especially with eleventy-million people all phoning home at once.
Good luck everyone!
PS There is an iPhone app called "FTP To Go" that does exactly what Jason describes in his post, but with this particular app you do NOT need to jailbreak your iPhone.
Tim |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:07 AM on 03.17.10 |
| ->> Hey, I wasn't trying to belittle anyone. I was making a point for people who may have read that post and never covered a large event. Thinking your phone is going to work as a router or using your wireless card is taking a roll of the dice. Yeah sometimes it works. More often than not it doesn't. Hell, most of the time we can't even text the office the phones are so jammed up. It is truly getting to be somewhat silly that anytime you correct someone on this message board the "inappropriate's" fly and people get their feelings hurt. And just so we're clear, there are a couple of other solutions or work arounds...it's just not smart to post them here. anyone who wants to email me should feel free to... |
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Jeff Kowalsky, Photographer
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West Bloomfield | MI | United States | Posted: 10:29 AM on 03.17.10 |
->> Jason Heffran wrote "Granted, I had to "open" my iPhone up to make this possible with software (AT&T doesn't make this feature available on the phone even though the technology is already there), but ever since it has performed well enough that I sometimes forget I am using AT&T over the air. I can even make calls, send text and use apps without the connection being lost."
Does it bother anyone else that someone advocates breaking their license agreement to get a service they are not paying for?
How is that any different when you license a photo to a client for specific use and they break that agreement? |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 10:47 AM on 03.17.10 |
->> @ Jeff - That's funny. There are different schools of thought on that topic. Definitely off topic here I would think. Probably more of a warranty issue, though. And. when you buy a phone that is refurbished because you lose/break them like I do, that isn't even an issue.
Go ahead and equate it to licensing a photo if that makes sense to you. I don't see it that way.
@ Tim - I searched high and low for a solution. Never ran across that one. I may just try it. Thanks for the info. The iPhone can do a lot of things that are just not enabled. I guess Apple wants to force us to buy that poorly performing USB card and pay them for another data plan when we already have one for the phone. That's as bad as $350/line for something that is already technologically in place.
@ Chuck - I guess if the "inappropriates" are flying, that might mean it is to some people. I do see your point based on your extensive experience, though. But it is based on yours, that's all. Other alternatives mentioned shouldn't be belittled which is basically what ya did.
No hard feelings, though. You're entitled to post whatever you want. That's why this board is here, I would imagine. |
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