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$200 assignments
John Strohsacker, Photographer
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Eric Linsley, Photographer
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West Haven | CT | USA | Posted: 1:29 AM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> What if its an assignment with another photographer and you are a second photographer with him shooting individual and team photos and they offer a day rate of $150 and its 6 hours each day for 3 days...Would that be a good assignment? |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 2:38 AM on 03.15.10 |
->> Eric,
That deal depends on your own situation, including but not limited to:
*Where you are located
*What your cost of doing biz. is. [Insurance, Taxes]
*Are you using your own equipment or the photographers
*What income are you sacrificing from another job [Opportunity Cost]
*How many days a year you can expect to work.
*How much you enjoy that work vs. other work [a minor factor]
*What is your work and your time "worth"
The other thing to consider Eric is while you may "only be working 6 hrs" in reality you are giving up your entire day, you won't be able to work more that same day unless you can do the night shift somewhere else at Starbucks, etc... |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 4:27 AM on 03.15.10 |
->> I agree with Patrick that it all depends on the situation.
are you working with a team of photographers or are you shooting it all yourself?
Is it a straight shoot the images and they handle the post?
Is the client giving you X number of jobs a day per year that translates into large dollars?
Are you charging per event/job or is it a day rate?
(get away from the day rate, it is not a good deal for anyone.)Just how long is a day?
Charge per event/job/game for example: if you shoot a game in the morning and then a game in the afternoon that's two seperate jobs. in a day rate situation the client will want to have that all covered in the same day rate.
Get your wording clear and make sure your client understands your billing ahead of time. If they want you they will have no problems with it.
It all depends on the actual details of the situation, that determines if $200.00 is a "low paying" rate or not. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 4:29 AM on 03.15.10 |
->> One more thing.
Since when is $200.00 not worth getting out of bed for?? |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 5:46 AM on 03.15.10 |
->> And I thought Eric was being facetious...
But more to the point of the link: it's half right.
If you have the talent, an indvidual *can* afford to forego the $200 assignments, re-investing that energy into marketing themself in pursuit of better-paying jobs. After all, you can pass on 9 $200 jobs for every $2000 job you can snag.
But refusing the $200 jobs isn't going to do a thing to reverse the trend of something for nothing. There's always going to be someone willing to do them, and there will always be clients willing to accept whatever quality they can get for $200. |
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Chris Hutty, Photographer
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Brighton | East Sussex | UK | Posted: 6:22 AM on 03.15.10 |
->> This part summed it up for me:
"No one educates photographers on how much to charge and established photographers are reluctant to share their rate cards or share how much they charge for services. I believe that needs to change."
If someone can show me how the hell to get the $2000 jobs I'd be happy to take it - I'll probably still do the other 9 $200 though. I figure I have to work my ass off to make it in this business and I'll take what I can... just as most of those lucky enough to be able to turn down the lower paid work did on their way up. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 9:10 AM on 03.15.10 |
->> $200 assignments
In these idealistic discussions, there are two things that always stand out: The blatant disrespect for the only person in the equation writing checks - namely the customer/client, and the complete misunderstanding of free market dynamics.
The customer is not an evil entity. They are giving you money for a service. A customer may have a $200,000 annual photo budget and still choose to do some photo shoots for $200 or even $20 because on that day, for that particular story or usage, it's just not worth it to them to spend more. But the next day they might need something very special where the sky is the limit on budget. Both needs will be filled. Which niche you fill is your choice. This customer is no more evil than a guy who doesn't want to spend $50 every day for lunch. He might buy White Castle for lunch and save up for a big meal on the weekend.
Idealism is the gateway to bridge burning. Don't do it. If you can't stomach making White Castles, just don't do it. Don't make a big deal out of it. Don't berate the lunchtime customer for deciding not to spend $50 for lunch. Likewise, don't trash the person who decides to make White castles for a living. If you're a five star chef, why should you care that they are making White Castles? If they are an unemployed five star chef making gourmet food and charging White Castle prices, the natural selection of the free market will take care of the problem. But the career White Castle cook is just trying to make a living - just like you are. Don't think they're taking your customer - 'cause they aren't.
Free market dynamics. The customer is the most important part of the equation, period. Your job is to sell your product or service to the person who has money. If you want to make more money, you have to convince the person who has money that your product or service is worth the extra investment. Every market has competition, photography is no exception. A Rolex tells time just like a Timex. Timex makes money selling lots of watches at a low unit cost. Rolex makes money selling fewer units that cost a whole lot more. Both are valid business models.
If you are selling a Rolex, you have to find the Rolex customer. They won't be at Target. You have to know what is important to the Rolex customer - it won't be price. You have to advertise in places and in a way that appeals to the Rolex customer - full page ad in Forbes with a gorgeous image of one watch and a simple message, not a spread in a local rag with ten different watches with prices floating below. If Rolex is better, WHY is it better? You have to tell people that it's hand made with the finest materials in limited quantities and sold only at fine jewelers. You have to promote these attributes because it's what the Rolex customer looks for in a product. If you jump up and down and keep comparing yourself to lower-end products, you are not going to make a sale to the Rolex customer. They KNOW a Rolex is not a Timex. Mentioning Timex in the same sentence as Rolex gives the customer a reason to think about Timex and wonder why YOU are thinking about Timex.
Note that none of this has ANYTHING to do with how good the watch is at telling time. A Timex is probably much more accurate as a timekeeping device over the long run. But it's not about telling time.
Focus on your brand. Find your ideal customer. Market to that customer. If you do these things and do them well, what your competition charges and what other customers are paying will be the furthest thing from your mind...as it should be. Trying to rally everyone into selling services for the same price is short-sighted and missing the big picture.
Buy some marketing books. Take marketing classes. A White Castle cook who has taught themselves how to make gourmet meals might be the next five star chef, but it will never happen if that cook doesn't come up with a way of convincing people that they really can cook a five star meal. That part of the problem has nothing to do with how well they make an entree. It has everything to do with how well they sell themselves. |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 9:24 AM on 03.15.10 |
->> @ David - I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have this discussion regularly and have made the same argument. The market will bear the price paid... simple economics.
It IS all about your business model. Any business model that works is a good one. The trick is, like you allude to, CAN a certain individual make it work? The five-star chef scoffs at the White Castle establishment. But, in the end, two things come to my mind...
1. Why in the world is the five-star chef even concerned with White Castle unless they are a facade and selling a low-quality product at five-star prices and "fooling" the buyer with marketing smoke and mirrors.
2. I doubt that the White Castles of the world even worry about the five-star chefs. Would they want that status, absolutely. But, for a reason - which only needs justification by themselves - they are selling White Castle product at White Castle prices.
The difference is that, from what I witness, we have some five-star chefs in this industry that waste a lot of time discouraging the White Castles of the world. And the topic of "Opportunity Cost" always seems to come up.
How much time is spent wasted on telling White Castles that they shouldn't sell their product or that they should charge five-star prices even though the quality may not be up to par? Or, even still, how many times on this board does the chef tell the White Castle that there isn't even any money to be made in the business.
As you said. Rolex would never mention Timex, let alone waste an ounce of effort towards the brand.
Just my two cents. I think you hit it on the head, though. |
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Colin Lenton, Photographer
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Philadelphia | PA | United States | Posted: 9:48 AM on 03.15.10 |
->> David, I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying about the issue. I don't really think most professional photographers need to "worry" about $200 assignments because the work they're doing is worth more than that, and thus they're being paid accordingly. If its not, its not, end of story, nothing to worry about.
However, I don't agree that everyone who says "stop taking $200 assignments" is worrying. The simple truth of the matter is, that most photographers are telling other photographers to stop shooting those assignments as a teaching method.
Many experienced photographers see young talented photogs who are fully capable of shooting these 5 star, rolex assignments, but are stuck in a rut shooting run of the mill cheap White Castle assignments.
Remember the context within which this original comment was made, at the elite Eddie Adams workshop. This isn't just any old group of people with cameras. These are some of the best and brightest young photographers in the business. |
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Wesley Hitt, Photographer
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Fayetteville | AR | USA | Posted: 11:49 AM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> Everyone has to decide, individually, whether they want to be a $200 Photographer or a $2000 Photographer. They are both OK if the photographer is happy. Then work to make that dream come true. |
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Les Stukenberg, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Prescott Valley | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:42 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Eric,
First off only you can decide what your time is worth. If you are part of a team and doing the shooting, then the $150/6 hours makes sense to me. If however you are doing the shooting, processing and selling.. Nope it doesn't.. I do some events where I just need someone to sell what I am shooting, and I pay about that sometimes more.. never less. I base my pay for help on what needs I need fulfilled and what I am making as the business owner, then it's up to whom I offer the job to decide if the want to take it.
I have been seeing the term "opportunity cost" floated around, maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention lately as to what it really means. To me it would seem if you are in a market that there is a lot of opportunity to market yourself and actually get jobs then that may well be time spent wisely. However if you live in a market where there are FEW opportunities and you are passing up those $200 (0r whatever the number) gigs with a pie in the sky attitude then you are passing up money in your bank account. Sure one $2000 gig can offset 10 $200 gigs but those same 10 gigs are better than NO money in your bank account if you don't get that one. That's what being a business owner is all about, making the hard decisions.
What gets me is the number of people who actually don't care if they make the $200 gigs and give those jobs away for FREE or better yet for trade like for concert tickets, etc. In our little community we have that happening all the time so even those potential small paying jobs are gone all because a small group of photographers have set the bar so low. I don't even bother looking for jobs like that anymore because I know I won't be paid. Same happened with our local rodeo which is probably the biggest single event of the year in the community. I was asked quite a few years ago to shoot it for the marketing company, I asked how much was the pay, they said they don't pay because I should be honored to be asked to do it as so many others wanted the non-paying job ( wait its not a job but a donation).. I politely passed and now travel out of town for a paying job every 4th of July week. So it's not the $200 jobs that are killing us it's the Freebies.. |
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Dan Bannister, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | Canada | Posted: 3:56 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Gas and insurance to get to the job....$30
Drop a camera on the job.... $350 repair bill
Blow a flash on the job.... $400 replacement
Camera is stolen on the job... $500 insurance deductible
Remembering you're only getting $200 and you still have to do an hour of post on your $4000 Mac Pro before delivering to the client......Priceless
Oh, and no doubt they'll lose the disk in a month and call you to burn and ship them another one, for free. |
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Diana Porter, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 4:40 PM on 03.15.10 |
| ->> I have had a lot of $200.00 job individual clients who have referred me for much higher paying corporate jobs. Besides, if I'm not doing anything else, then $200.00 is better than zero any day of the week. Be careful who you turn your nose up at... |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 5:43 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Quick anecdote....
Back in the late 80's A client form a Medium Size B2B Ad Agency approached me with a job for about half my day rate. i was a semi moderate job, and it would take me about 3/4 of a day to complete and Process the 4x5 Transparencies (Remember this was the late 80's and I had an E-6 Line on the premises)
I did the Job and the client was super happy and I helped him keep his job within budget with Quality results.
Weeks later he came back to me with a simple job, to shoot a picture frame, just a Picture frame on COB (White background) It took me about one hour to shoot, tear down and put the film in the soup.
He paid me a FULL day rate, because he had the budget and he remembered how I kept his previous project within Budget a few weeks earlier.
Moral, sometimes it pays to do a job on a lower budget to be able to enjoy the bigger jobs at a later date. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 5:46 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> BTW, I wonder how many 5-Star Shooters here are getting the $1500-$2000 a day jobs here??
I know what my day rates are and how I charge my customers, I'm happy and my customers are happy to pay for my time and I DO some very large budget Catalog Shoots a year that DO pay the Big Bucks. But they don't happen every week. |
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Steve Boyle, Photographer
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 7:57 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Steve,
Your interpretation of the CDB is incorrect. The CDB is simply a guide for your overall business cost. The vast majority of your expenses are constant whether you are shooting or not. In other words, if your CDB expenses are $800 per day, a large chunk of those expenses are still there whether you are shooting or not. So if you pass on ALL shooting assignments on Monday because they are below your CDB, you will be $1,600 in the hole on Tuesday. If you take a $200 assignment on Monday, you'll "only" be $1,400 in the hole on Tuesday.
But that is not to say the CDB is useless...not at all. Obviously if you have a CDB of $800 and you can only manage to land $200 gigs every day, you are not going to last long. The CDB will tell you that ahead of time. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 8:31 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> David H.,
Outstanding post!
--Mark |
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Matthew Ginn, Photographer
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Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> David is right.
However, if you spend too much of your time doing $200 jobs, you won't have any time to find the $1000+ jobs. |
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Kevin Seale, Photographer
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Crawfordsville | IN | United States | Posted: 9:52 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Steve, you are missing two critical points in your reference to the cost of doing business calculator.
1) This is not a one time a year calculation. It is something that has to be recalculated constantly to reflect actual results.
2) Z value is not the important number. The important number is the Weekly Cost of Doing Business. Your Z value is some arbitrary value based on the number of days you WANT to work each year. The weekly COB is the amount you HAVE to earn each week to cover your expenses.
The default values that display in the calculator show a weekly COB of $1,727.88 and per day of shooting rate of $898.50 based on WANTING to shoot 100 days per year.
The way I look at this, it means every day, seven days a week, you have to generate $246.84 of revenue and every day you have to measure yourself against this number as well as your year to date cumulative variation from it. You also have to constantly update your actual expenses and adjust your targets to reflect reality which constantly changes your weekly and daily COB budget.
Until you are consistently meeting your daily revenue requirements and your YTD variation is proving it can remain positive, passing up ANY chance to earn positive cash flow is a foolish choice and a quick way to sink your business. You make every dollar you can until you are making more than you budgeted. Once you do, then you can afford to be selective.
If you are not happy with the amount per job you are making or the number of jobs you are required to work to generate positive YTD cumulative variation, you have to either change your market and/or reduce your expenses.
The problem is that many do not accept the fact that most markets do not pay at the levels they used to and hold on to the belief that their work is worth more than what the market is paying. When supply exceeds demand, suppliers do not control pricing, buyers do.
This gets to my biggest issue with the message behind the calculator. It was created based on a market where the seller had more control over pricing. It does not reflect the significant shift toward a buyers market and I don't think it does an adequate job of explaining the market analysis required to determine if being successful in a specific market is even a viable option regardless of how good you think you are.
In a buyers market, you have to understand the real revenue potential per job/day (Not what you think it should be, but what it actually is) and determine if you can realistically gain enough market share to cover your weekly cost of doing business week in and week out. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 10:23 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> Full day rates, $200 assignments..and everything in between. It's enough to drive a photographer nuts... oh wait.. I repeat myself.
David and Les in particular, hats off... you guys get it.
Now, is there a way that you can make day rate AND $200 rate and have it all make sense?
Of course there is. Allow me to explain.
It certainly starts with KNOWING YOUR COST OF DOING BUSINESS.
I know, that pesky little fact gets in the way of shooting from your hip or out one's butt. KNOW IT.
David is certainly right, it's about building the BRAND, and pricing is part of the BRAND, but understanding pricing and paying the bills are two things that tend to get a lot of attention more than branding, so let's look at that for a few moments.
If you sell products that you buy from someone else, mark it up and then resell it, the difference between the two is called gross profit, mark up or margin. Generally speaking, if you buy it for $70 and sell it for $100, that's 30% margin.
Most beginners think that "ok, I need to make 30% - on everything, that way I'll be ok."
Wrong.
When I buy stuff in my other life, some of it will go sold at or near cost - some of at 30% and some of it will be at margins over - sometimes well over 30%. It's all about the overall average. Too much low profit stuff is bad, too much high profit stuff is GOOD.
Does it work in photography? Of course. The trick is to control the "mix" of low margin sales so it doesn't overwhelm the better mix stuff.
Let's assume you want to net $100,000 a year (that's after all your expenses. Using the cost of business calculator, you factor in all of your expenses. You determine that you need to bring in $5861/week over a 45 week year ( the other weeks being time off) to make $250,000 less $150,000 in CODB.
Ok, so remember this: You've only got so many hours in that week. The key is, no matter how many hours define your work week, if you go too low on your rate, you won't make your goal. Go too high, you may not get any business. The MIX is the key.
Can you do a $200 assignment? If it takes a hour to shoot and a hour to edit, probably doable - esp. if it's been a good week and it's Thursday and you're $50 from making your goal.
In other words, it's not the $200 that's the problem, it's the time that it takes to produce the $200 assigment. That's where the opportunity cost thing comes in. Too much time to make too little money is bad. Do too many.. and you're toast.
That $1000 assignment could be a bad deal, too, if it takes too long to produce. If it takes 60 hours to do it, was it worth $16.67/hour?
So, when someone offers you $200, you now can ask the right questions. If it's a 20 minute gig 5 minutes from the studio with about 30 minutes worth of editing, then factor in the travel costs etc (ala John Harrington's advice) and then decide.
If it's not quite working, then you can counter "It isn't doable at $200 but I can make it work at $300". It's all about knowing what your cost are. It's about not getting sucked in and losing opportunities that would have been more profitable.
So, let's see if it works over a five day period:
Day 1:
Assignment 1 Total Time 2 Hours Billable Total $200
Assignment 2 Total Time 5 Hours Billable Total $1000
Day 2
Assignment 1 Total Time 4 Hours Billable Total $500
Day 3
Nothing
Day 4
Assignment 1 Total Time 2 Hours Billable Total $200
Assignment 2 Total Time 6 Hours Billable Total $1200
Day 5
Assignment 1 Total Time 15 Hours Billable Total $3300
Total $6400 Total Hours 33 or about $194/hour.
My model is hypothetical. BUT, the general concept is correct. You can take the $200 assignment, as long as is it isn't too much of the total and the time spent completing it isn't too great.
You play with the mix, when you get the right balance, then it's show time.
Make sense?
Does a higher price work? Generally, a higher price will mean fewer buyers but bigger paydays. The trick for upscale client is to convince them that you're still delivering more VALUE for their dollar...and that you cater to people like "them".
Hope this helps...
Email me with questions if you don't want to post on the board.
Michael |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 10:26 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> I don't really care what other photographers charge as long as they base their pricing on a well-thought out business plan.
However, if a Cost of Doing Business calculation is based on living at your parents' house for free, you better hope they leave the place to you in their will, because you'll never afford a house of your own.
--Mark |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:52 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> "David is right.
However, if you spend too much of your time doing $200 jobs, you won't have any time to find the $1000+ jobs."
Wrong....
You only do the $200 a day jobs when you don't have anything else to do other than watch Oprah!!
When i have have jobs booked for my day rate, it is stupid to take the low paying Jobs, I never do that.
But, OTOH, If I don't have anything better to do, I take whatever comes through the door!!
I rather make the $200 now than sit around with nothing to do.
It's $200 that I have and if I don't do the job, someone else will do it.
Y |
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Jason Heffran, Photographer
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Natrona Heights | PA | USA | Posted: 11:57 PM on 03.15.10 |
->> If you're a photographer (or any freelance occupation for that matter) and don't know how to run a business - you're DOA no matter what your price sheet says.
Knowing how to run your business in a profitable manner is the most important skill we should have. Far more important that the skill behind the camera - unless you work for somebody else.
You can make any business model work. It just relies on keeping control of that "every so important" income statement. If you don't know how many hours you need to work at what "average" rate, then you WILL die on the vine.
I got some good advice awhile back. NEVER change your price. Either give them more for their money or less. The direction you go is a business decision based on the lifetime value of the client and the project at hand.
Worked in my previous business and it works when applied to photography. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 6:06 PM on 03.16.10 |
->> "NEVER change your price. Either give them more for their money or less."
My local grocery store certainly practices the latter...... |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 7:25 PM on 03.16.10 |
->> I give my clients mre than what they expect, but......
I work with their budget, because i rather do it, within their budget today, and then later, they WILL make a budget around me!! It has happened before, so, I'm not expecting something new. |
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Shaun Sartin, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Glenview | IL | | Posted: 10:13 PM on 03.16.10 |
->> Most of this thread assumes the reality that someone is offering you just $200.
What about when the client asks for a bid. A lot different than if they give ou a budget, whether $200 or $2000.
I recently bid a job for a previous client. It was a two-day job, total of close to 10 hours of shooting, plus post processing, DVD and publication rights. I gave what I thought was reasonable number... didn't get it. Does it mean I should have just low-balled the offer to make sure I got it? Sure it could have meant I had more money in my pocket now or at least receivables. By the same token, I don't want to bid what I think will get me the job as much as what I think it's worth and/or what's reasonable.
Sure I wish I'd won the bid at my price, but it's now just part of my learning curve. Not dissimilar to applying for jobs, you can't get the job if you don't apply, but sometimes when you get the job, freelance or otherwise, it's just the wrong job, wrong client.... and you just keep trying. A friend of mine said to me this.... sometimes it just works out for the best wether you know it or not. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 12:16 AM on 03.17.10 |
->> Int eh same token, I put a bid and did a Job for two sister companies last September. I split eh expenses between the two companies and Billed Equally for the two jobs.
Two weeks later, the Art Director/VP of the Agency for one of the two sister companies calls me and tells me that she has a problem with my final invoice.....
It was too low!! I told her that I was invoicing according to my bid, her answer was that I did more than she expected and doubled my Day Rate!!
Not all clients are out to screw you!! You work with them enough and earn their respect and you will be rewarded. This particular agency and client is over 1500 miles from me, in another state. I know they can hire anyone they want in their own state, but they pick me!! Why?? I have earned their respect and worked with them, stayed within budget and worked around their budgets!! And I guess they like my work.... |
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Chris Hutty, Photographer
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Brighton | East Sussex | UK | Posted: 7:21 AM on 03.18.10 |
| ->> I quite agree thats it's all about working with a client and their budgets, often it pays off in the longer term. What I won't do is what happened to me this morning when a well known Poker company called me for a quote for a 2 hour press shoot. My quote was what I feel the market will support at the moment - but I an amount I think some people on here wouldn't get out of bed for. Their response was that they are going to ring around other photographers to see if they can get it cheaper. Funny thing is they have hired a yaught in an exclusive marina in central London for the shoot. They clearly have the budget but for some reason think the photographer ranks alongside the promo girls they're going to stick in skimpy outfits in terms of pay. In this case it's really not a client I'm willing to go the extra yard for. To be honest I don't know why you'd go to the effort and expense of setting up a shoot and then try scrape around for the cheapest possible option for the person is actually going to shoot it |
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Chris Hutty, Photographer
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Brighton | East Sussex | UK | Posted: 8:09 AM on 03.18.10 |
| ->> You couldn't make it up. Just had another call from the client... somebody has offered to do it for £140 (about the magical $200) he then asks me if I have a website because they might actually look at my work. Hang on... they haven't even looked at peoples work yet?! Brilliant. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 8:56 PM on 03.18.10 |
->> Chris,
There is such a thing as not hiring - or firing - a client.
There's also an opportunity to build a relationship if they turn out to be brighter than they appear.
The trick to all of this is to build a relationship. How do you do this? Start with something simple in terms of a question: "What exactly do you need?" When they describe it, you'll listen and then mumble something like "Have you tried to do this with a point and shoot camera? Is that what you need?"
One of two things will most likely happen: They will either say something like "Do you think that could work?" This will tell you that they haven't tried this approach and that your idea will drive them to try it and save the money. This is fine if this is really the case. Let them know that if it doesn't work out to give you a call.
But the odds are, they have tried it and it hasn't worked. It must be they just don't know how to run the point and shoot - at least that's what they think. That's why they want someone cheap.
So, when they tell you what they want, and their experiences at trying to get decent results, take notes. When they are done, say something like this "Well, I can understand why you weren't happy. Like many things, this looks easy but it really isn't. For example (then cite how it takes specialized equipment or remote lighting or whatever to really do the job RIGHT).
Ask them what else they'll need image wise. Then give them a quote and add 10%. Quote that rate. Tell them that what they are paying for are, clear sharp images produced by a experienced professional and that you know they'll be happy with the results. Point out to them that they are spending a considerable amount of money to put on the press shoot. Make the point to them that you made in your post - that it's kind of stupid to risk not having a photographic record of the event because they hired cheap - not professional.
Tell them you want their business. Tell them your rate is more than fair. Then ask them if there's anything else they need shot and if not, "do we have a deal?" In sales lingo, that's asking for the sale. After you ask that question, SHUT UP and wait for a response.
If they offer a price objection, say something like, well, I can do it for X, but I'll have to reduce the amount of time.
When they say "Can't you do it for X and we'll let everyone know what a good job you did" you say: "Tell you what I'll do: This time, and this time only, if you give me payment when I deliver the finished images, I'll knock 5% off the total price. OK?" THEN SHUT UP.
They'll either take the deal or not. If they say "NO" you're out the time it took to talk to them and that's really not a big loss. If they say yes, get to work. And what about the 5% extra?
Keep it. You'll need it for the pain in the butt issue they forgot to raise.
Good luck.
Michael |
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Joseph Rogate, Photographer
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Seaford | NY | USA | Posted: 1:32 PM on 03.22.10 |
->> OK JOhn I have one for you. Not saying who what where but once again I have been undercut by a photographer who is charging $200.00 and , get this, has to travel at the minimum 90 minutes each way with out traffic.
WHAT? I was told by the SID (Sports Information Director) that my photography is far superior to his but he is cheaper. Get this, yesterday he was to shoot a softball game. Not only did he hit traffic he went to the wrong school and when he realized his error and by the time he was where he was supposed to be it was the 5th inning of the second game. Usless to be there now. Well, you get what you pay for. In the past this has happened and I was always called back so I am hoping it happens again I am not giving in on my price. |
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Todd Spoth, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 5:56 PM on 03.22.10 |
->> lots of good discussion in this thread.
I guess I can go ahead and raise my hand as the photographer from Texas who contributed to the original article on APHOTOEDITOR.
-T
http://toddspoth.com
http://toddspothblog.com |
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Mike Janes, Photographer
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Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 10:15 PM on 03.22.10 |
| ->> Worst part is in my area $200 assignments are thought to be too high for covering a game. Most are $100-200 range including colleges and some pro teams - few of the teams are paying less and think it's fair when it's far from it. One guy charges $50/game and probably going to read this (hi). It's why I stay away from that area as just way too cheap and not worth it a bit. Living in the wrong area! |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:00 PM on 03.22.10 |
->> Mike, I'm sorry things are so bad in your area.
This is one more reason I'm glad that I don't do any of these kinds of sports!! Too much competition and cut throat Business practices!! I'm done with NCAA too!! I have done some games and some have taken it upon themselves to send me anonymous insulting E-mails because of it, I honestly don't need this!! If my presence in a game is such a threat to another shooter that makes them send these kinds of mail to me, this is not the company I want to keep to begin with!! I'll stick to the industry I'm welcome at, I get asked to go to the events and I get paid very well to be at!! |
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Larz Schwartz, Photographer
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Chandler | AZ | United States | Posted: 3:04 AM on 03.23.10 |
->> I have to add to this myself. I have a commercial client who always wants to haggle on price. We shot many pieces and I gave them a per piece price. It was a fair price, but after the haggle I brought it down, plus they gave me more pieces to shoot, so it almost made up for it.
Fast forward, having done a few shoots for them. They want a price for another shoot, this is a model and product. I give them a good price thinking they won't negotiate this one, wrong...My fault. So they say they want to negotiate. I tell them OK, my price is now this and we can negotiate down to this, which is where I started from. They decide to go and buy a camera and do it themselves. Cool, I can't wait to see this!
I get a look at the photo and I am not surprised. Now I find out from one of the guys that works there that they had someone work on the photo at a rate of $125/hr and they did 2-3 hours of work. So that plus the $1300 in camera equipment they bought.
Then I get a call last week, can I shoot some products for them, I said I thought they have a camera? The people who did the editing said it would be better to have a professional shoot the photos instead of them rebuilding each photo.
So, guess what, I got the job again, this time at the full rate, no negotiating.
Oh, one more thing, after the first product shoot, I send then 2 discs with all the photos. 6 months later I get a call, do you have this image, I said yes on another drive, don't you have the disc? We can't find it. LOL!
Yes, you get what you pay for. Yes, sometimes it is better to pass up on a job then work for the stress and not enough money. Other times things just work out, those are the days we love!
Good luck!
Take care, Larz |
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