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How Powerful do my AlienBees need to be?
Amanda Hansmeyer, Photographer
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Duluth | MN | USA | Posted: 6:16 PM on 02.16.10 |
->> Hi Everyone. I am in the process of investing in some lighting gear. I am looking to buy a couple AlienBees flashes for simple lighting setups in ballrooms for weddings, as well as gyms for shooting sports. I am wondering if I really need the B1600's to light such large spaces, or if a couple of the B800's will be enough light for spaces that large.
On another note, I've always been an avid Pocket Wizard fan, but may make the switch to the CyberSync remotes, which seem to have gotten good reviews here. Does anyone use them for sports? Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! - Amanda |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 6:46 PM on 02.16.10 |
->> You will bee all set with the 800's. I used to light 1/2 of a basketball court with 2 800's turned down to just over 1/2 power. For weddings and portraits an 800 into a softbox and a second into an umbrella is plenty add a large panel as a kicker and you are more than set. I just bought a second pair of 800's and never considered the 1600s.
On a related note..... the new Buff softboxes that pop open like umbrellas are kick ass.
BTW we're talking HIGH SCHOOL gyms..... They aren't going to cut it in a D1 arena....... |
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Sergei Belski, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | Canada | Posted: 6:58 PM on 02.16.10 |
->> I would for sure go with 1600s. I found that AB 800 are not powerful enough for sports. I shoot at universities and high schools and have 2 AB 800 and 4 AB 1600... use 1600 full power all the time. I always bounce strobes of the ceiling and don't shoot directly, if you would shoot directly than it would be another story. In my profile I have a bunch of photos from a high school tournament. I used 2 AB 1600 and shot ISO 100. You can also check some on my blog, I have info under each photo on what I used: http://www.sergeibelski.com/blog/758
Sergei
www.sergeibelski.com |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington/Normal | IL | United States | Posted: 7:09 PM on 02.16.10 |
->> Power isn't everything - especially shooting sports. Be sure to check out the duration - which I believe is a bunch shorter on the 800's.
Eric says you can light a half a gym with a pair, but with a little bit of creativity I've done a whole D3 gym with a pair. Yes, I suffered a bit more on my ISO, but the position I was in kind of required it. Half a gym would be more realistic.
I also tested a pair in a D1 gym that is already pretty well lit. It will work, but certainly won't replace a really nice set of Speedo or Elins.
Long story short, don't cheat yourself by just looking at the power. |
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Bob Cox, Photographer
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NEWBURGH | NY | USA | Posted: 7:19 PM on 02.16.10 |
->> I use (4)AB800's to strobe HS gyms (1) in each corner and they give me plenty of light. Here are some samples I posted on another forum. http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/864938/0#8102325
With the ab800's, you want to set them at full power to shorten the flash duration as explained on Paul C Buff's (Ailienbees.com) website. This helps cut down on motion blur. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 7:40 PM on 02.16.10 |
->> Amanda missed the question on the cyber sync slaves......
I've have used the cyber sync as well as Buffs older remotes including the early version with the LCD that would let you control the settings on each strobe. I would tell you to AVOID the the battery powered receivers in favor of the ones that use line power. The reason being that the CSRB's SHUT OFF if they don't receive a signal after 60 minutes. There is no way to get around it and it is A HUGE FLAW in the design IMHO. If you have the $$ go with the Cyber commander and CRS+ units that will let you address and control the heads.
This is more than just 'nice'. At one of the schools that I used to shoot, the sun would arc across the gym and change the balance of the room..... It was super helpful to be able to adjust the lighting while still sitting on the court. For portraits I can change to output without lowering the stands to get to the sliders..... |
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Jim Redman, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 8:31 PM on 02.16.10 |
| ->> I have the 1600W bees and shoot 1/4 power and fire away and have no problem with recycle times, I have the cubercyncs as well and everything works incredible. The Cybercyncs are fantastic and never miss a beat. I have set them up in mezzanines with 11' reflectors and still did 1/4 power. I have had them for 3 years and they still work flawlessly. |
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Mike Janes, Photographer
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Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 8:53 PM on 02.16.10 |
| ->> I got the 1600's for one simple reason - you can always turn them down but can't turn the 800's up. In high school gyms find myself using them at half power or less, but in larger well lit gyms do put them higher to get over ambient. Would say go for the 1600's just so you have that extra just in case. Other question only use PW MultiMax so can't compare. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 9:05 PM on 02.16.10 |
->> you can always turn them down but can't turn the 800's up......
Sure I can.... I just turn on two more ;)
The duration that Alan is speaking of is flash duration NOT recycle times. An explanation of flash duration and the impact on action photography can bee found here..... http://www.paulcbuff.com/pcb2009/einstein.html#flash or a search of the SS boards will produce a wealth of knowledge.
The three bees can be compared here http://www.alienbees.com/specs.html |
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Amanda Hansmeyer, Photographer
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Duluth | MN | USA | Posted: 9:14 PM on 02.16.10 |
| ->> Thank you all so much for all this information, and your advice based on your own experiences! I really appreciate it. Now, I will explore these links. Thanks! - Amanda |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington/Normal | IL | United States | Posted: 9:32 PM on 02.16.10 |
->> Eric - thanks for the clarification, you are correct I was talking the duration (length of effectiveness) of the flash of light.
The important specs sometimes get overlooked or are hard to find. I looked for a few days trying to find the flash duration on a Speedo force10 series light. Never did find it published (at that time, it may be now). Why wouldn't they publish it, I haven't a clue. It may be the most important spec for me in a strobe.
Similarly, has anyone been able to find shutter lag times (the time between pressing the release and the actual time the shutter fires) on any of the new Canon's? It's no where to be found. Are they ashamed of it? They are proud enough to tell you how many megapixels and how many frames per second you can shoot. Maybe it doesn't make a difference anymore, but in the D60 - 10D days and the MKII and IIn days the bodies were worlds apart on shutter lag... Much like strobes are today.
It's tough shopping out there, be careful what you buy. |
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David Welker, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 1:10 AM on 02.17.10 |
->> Amanda,
I use two b800s on a regular basis it light large high schools gyms.. One of the main reasons I chose the 800s over the 1600s is the recycle times. The 1600s have a 3 second recycle time at full power verses the 800s which have a 1 second recycle. For examples of what the 800s can do. Take a look at my website. If you have anymore questions feel free to send me an email. I will try and help you out any way I can. |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 11:08 AM on 02.17.10 |
| ->> I like the CyberSync system. I had one receiver stop working but Buff replaced it immediately. I agree about going with the line-powered receivers as they're going to be plugged in anyway. |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Nashville | Tn | USA | Posted: 11:12 AM on 02.17.10 |
->> I'm with Bob Cox. I've used both the AB-800's and 400's for high school gyms, and I like the 400's at full power, with the sport reflectors, the best. Nice balance of light, and not overpowering the background too much, and also very quick recycle and flash duration.
But that's just my opinion. And Bob's. :) |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Sycamore | IL | USA | Posted: 12:06 AM on 02.18.10 |
->> Bryan are you using the Paul C. Buff 11" sport reflectors? When I bought my AB400s I didn't intend to use them for sports, and now I'm finding that they aren't quite able to overpower the ambient in bright gyms.
So now I'm thinking about adding more lights, or upgrading to 800s, or getting sport reflectors (the latter being the most economical option). |
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Bob Cox, Photographer
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NEWBURGH | NY | USA | Posted: 5:38 AM on 02.18.10 |
| ->> I forgot to mention in my post that I use the Buff (11R) 11" long throw reflectors along with the AB800's and also use the cybersync transmitters and recievers. I use to use the standard 7" reflectors till I found out that the 11" give you at least a 1 to 2 stop advandage over the 7" at floor level and don't "spill" as much. Only thing with the 11" is you have to be more precise in aiming the bounce to the top of the key as the "beam of light" is much narrower then the 7". 28 degrees as compared to 80 degrees. |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Sycamore | IL | USA | Posted: 8:10 AM on 02.18.10 |
->> Thanks Bob, getting almost two stops of light for $60 sounds like a no-brainer.
I see that Buff has some new reflectors... 8.5" high-output, which claim a one-stop improvement over the 7-inch reflector. Has anyone used these? |
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Bryan Hulse, Photographer
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Nashville | Tn | USA | Posted: 9:33 AM on 02.18.10 |
| ->> Curtis: Yes, I use the 11" sport reflectors. I've tried with the stock 7" reflectors, but had the same results as you. Just not enough power. |
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Patrick Murphy-Racey, Photographer
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Powell | TN | USA | Posted: 10:47 AM on 02.18.10 |
| ->> reflector technology and flash duration are always to be considered long before any talk of output power. The 11" long throws are great at getting fast light to the court. As long as your ambient light where you'll be shooting is not abnormally high, the 400/800 would be a better choice. pm-r |
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Amanda Hansmeyer, Photographer
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Duluth | MN | USA | Posted: 1:51 PM on 02.18.10 |
| ->> Wow, I have learned so much more than I realized I needed to learn from this post! And, it's going to save me money as well! Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge with me everyone. |
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Sergei Belski, Photographer
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 8:05 PM on 02.22.10 |
->> I used 4 B800's with two bouncing and 2 feathering light onto the court.
It did not matter what high school gym I was in I always had enough light with zero ghosting.
It was the perfect setup for me this past season.
I can't say enough good things about the AB's new 8.5 inch reflectors. Simply awesome! The amount of light they throw out is great.
The new 11 inch LTR's are perfect for arena setups as well. Very very narrow beam of light.
You can view some of my strobed worked here: http://www.801images.com/p874428813
If anyone has questions feel free to contact me as well. Call or email me. |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Sycamore | IL | USA | Posted: 8:19 PM on 02.22.10 |
->> Very nice Matthew! One question though... do you light differently in high schools and "arenas" (assuming by "arenas" you mean venues bigger than a normal high school gym, where you can place the ABs with 11" reflectors further away)?
Some of the gyms I strobe are pretty small... I'd hate to have too-narrow a beam in those places. |
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 9:52 PM on 02.22.10 |
->> Curtis,
I have shot arenas, but I am talking about high school gyms in that post.
The nice thing I got with having 4 on the side I am shooting is 2 were bounced and 2 leaked onto the court. I wanted more of a direct look, but soft enough to not look to direct.
I got that look this year with that setup.
Later in the season I went from using 4 on one side to just two. I did that to make sure I covered enough of the players using strobes.
WHen I did just 2, I used the 8.5 inchers with great success.
Again I leak the light onto the court to make sure I get enough. Worked out great. |
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Tim Cowie, Photographer
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Davidson | NC | USA | Posted: 11:05 PM on 02.22.10 |
->> If you go with Alien Bee's I would stick with the 400's or 800's if you shoot in larger gyms. If you shoot in larger arenas, then I would look for something else.
In a smaller gym you need to power down the 1600's to the 1/4 power range and the t.1 flash duration is just way too slow. Just my $.02 |
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Ron Scheffler, Photographer
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Hamilton (Toronto area) | Ontario | Canada | Posted: 1:48 AM on 02.23.10 |
->> Alan Look: Canon camera shutter delay times for the more current cameras are posted in a comparison table about halfway down the page here: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-1D-Mark-IV-Digital-SLR...
This info is generally available in various Canon white papers... you just have to dig a bit to find it. |
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Mike Strasinger, Photographer
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Nashville | TN | USA | Posted: 2:00 AM on 02.23.10 |
| ->> Sergei - Your lighting is flat out amazing. |
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Louis Lopez, Photographer
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Alan Herzberg, Photographer
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Elm Grove | WI | USA | Posted: 12:43 PM on 02.23.10 |
->> Mike Strasinger: I agree that Sergei's shots look great. What sets them apart, for me, is that, he has avoided harsh shadows on any players and there is no sharp drop off in the lighting as get beyond the area of the court where he is shooting. I see some shots where the players are brightly lit and the area beyond the half court line or the fans in the stands are a black hole.
Sergei: the most recent shots you did with the 2 AB1600s, were you shooting just the near half court area? I'm assuming you bounced off the ceiling, right? Where did you have your lights set up?
I can't make up my mind about whether to get the 800s or the 1600s. I know for sure I want to bounce off the ceiling or the wall behind the basket. I'd only need to cover one-half the court since I usually shoot just one particular team each game. I'm kind of torn between the power of the 1600 to better enable me to bounce the light and still overpower the ambient light and the 800s with their faster recycle time and shorter flash duration. |
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Randy Abrams, Photographer
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Bath | NY | US | Posted: 2:42 PM on 02.23.10 |
->> ->>Alan Herzberg: I agree that Sergei's shots look great. What sets them apart, for me, is that, he has avoided harsh shadows on any players and there is no sharp drop off in the lighting as get beyond the area of the court where he is shooting.
+1 to what Alan said. The one thing I hate about shooting with strobes is the shadows. The other thing that just wowed me with Sergei's shots is that they were at ISO 100! |
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Dave Breen, Photographer
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Somerset | PA | USA | Posted: 3:34 PM on 02.23.10 |
->> I've said it before -- I do NOT like the look of the strobed action that appears in SI and other publications. It is very harsh, with blown highlights (I assume this is deliberate) and strange shadows, especially if the floor is included in the shot.
The images Bob and Sergei have shown look natural, as if I've been in the gym. Great job, guys. |
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Sergei Belski, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | Canada | Posted: 8:09 PM on 02.23.10 |
->> Alan, I mostly shoot just one side of the court, when they actually run towards me and not running away. I had one strobe attached to the shot clock on the wall and one on a light stand all taped up so it wouldn't fall. I always bounce them of the ceiling to avoid harsh shadows and to have a natural look.
Thank you very much for all your positive comments about my work!
Sergei
http://www.sergeibelski.com |
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David Welker, Photographer, Student/Intern
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