SportsShooter.com - SS etiquette-a minor rant

	Okotoks \| AB \| Canada \| Posted: 11:12 AM on 02.02.10
	->> I'm wondering if the last 2 members who asked me for information are reading this thread.......things that make you go hhhmmmm.....

Chuck Liddy, Photographer

	Durham \| NC \| USA \| Posted: 11:14 AM on 02.02.10
	->> gee. usually the emails I recieve have a "you" in it but it doesn't start with "thank".......

Blaine McCartney, Photographer

	Columbus \| NE \| USA \| Posted: 11:21 AM on 02.02.10
	->> I've had some well known members here not give me the simple courtesy to reply to questions I had for them. It's not just rookies that snub those willing to help.

Lane Hickenbottom, Photographer

	Omaha \| NE \| usa \| Posted: 12:04 PM on 02.02.10
	->> Blaine, do you mean "answers" you had for them? If so good point. If not, huh?

Steven Mullensky, Photographer, Photo Editor

Port Townsend | WA. | USA | Posted: 12:17 PM on 02.02.10

->> I have an aunt who complains to me about her grandson not thanking her for gifts she sent him over the years. She thinks that her grandson takes everything for granted. I am of the opinion that manners are taught in the home and if the parents are sticklers for proper etiquette then it will wear off onto their offspring. It is like wearing baseball caps indoors and at the table. Yeah I know. I'm of a different generation so I'm falling on deaf ears in that regard.
Please, thank you and excuse me are powerful words and I try to use them as often as necessary.

Blaine McCartney, Photographer

Columbus | NE | USA | Posted: 12:56 PM on 02.02.10

->> Lane,
Long time no see. Hope is all well with you in Omaha.

Anyway, I had questions for these well known members, but yet, they don't bother with a courtesy reply of yes, no or indifferent.

Guess my point is that it's just not these junior or less experienced shooters that Chris pointed out that don't reply to help they received, but it's also that some seasoned veterans don't bother reply to questions they receive.

Diego James Robles, Student/Intern, Photographer

Athens | OH | U.S. | Posted: 1:46 PM on 02.02.10

->> Chris,

Thanks for making this thread. As somebody who has e-mailed several people on this board, I think it's great that you took the time to answer. It is truly sad that these people did not have the courtesy to e-mail you back with thanks or even an acknowledgement.

I've had people not return my e-mails but never on this board which I think says a lot about the people here. In my very short career, I have tried to give back as much as I have taken. I've had leadership roles at my university's NPPA chapter because I remembered what it was like coming in and not knowing anything or anyone.

I also agree with Blaine. It's a two-way street. If you are too busy or unwilling to help, I think the most courteous thing to do is acknowledge receipt and say "no thanks." If you are on top of the world like some talented members here, at least have something automated.

I don't think charging young photographers who have nothing is the way to go. Would they value the information more, probably, but more often than not, young people who have a passion for this don't have the money to dish out for an e-mail response. Maybe I am wrong.

I think about my favorite photographs and they are not from my favorite photographers. The people/photographers that are dearest to my heart are those that are willing to share with the new generations and who give back.

Just because you didn't have a father and nobody helped you out when you were starting out does not mean you should not be an involved father and help those who come to you for help.

A long time ago I heard a lecture by Sam Abell and he said, "What kind of photographer do you want to be and more importantly, what kind of person?"

Daniel Berman, Student/Intern, Photographer

Seattle | WA | US | Posted: 1:57 PM on 02.02.10

->> Great post Diego.

It's about giving back.

When I first started out in photography I had a Seattle Post-Intelligencer staff photographer take me under his wing and teach me a lot of his tips and tricks. Some of his advice I still use to this day -- and that is some six years later.

And when I was first starting out, people from photo message boards reached out and gave me input, even loaning me camera gear for some big-break shoots for me. Without them, I might not be where I am today.

If I receive an email from a student or someone interested in a career in photography I respond as best I can. I remember how nervous I was to send off those emails, worried that I wouldn't receive even a passing glance -- I don't want others to feel that way.

That said, I have been in Chris's position as well.

I have sent a long, detailed, carefully-written reply to a student seeking advice, and either received no response at all or a meek "thanks, john doe."

It is insulting, but I try not to think about that in the long run. It is more important to me to give out some decent useful advice because I know how valuable it was to me early on in my career.

Tim Cowie, Photographer

Davidson | NC | USA | Posted: 2:15 PM on 02.02.10

->> I owe a ton to people like you Chris. Whether it has been from individual advice, friendship or even to those who have taken the time to post thoughts on subjects that come up on the messageboard, I appreciate and owe a lot.

Few names come to mind - Brian Westerholt, Willis Glassgow, Christopher Record, friends at Charlotte Observer and countless others.

Chris, for those who have not recognized your help, I say thank you for them. I know you can never thank people enough, so I hope we all learn a little from your post!

Chris Detrick, Photographer, Assistant

	Salt Lake City \| UT \| USA \| Posted: 2:42 PM on 02.02.10
	->> It's too bad that six years later, this issue continues. http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=7359

Phil Hawkins, Photographer

Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 3:13 PM on 02.02.10

->> I had one gal from New York who professed to be a college student writing a paper on photography and wanted to interview me. I said OK, answered some pretty lame, basic questions, then she popped me for an internship or assistant's position. I was irritated and asked her to send me a copy of her paper when she got it done and she stuttered and ended the conversation. I'm still trying to figure out why she didn't just come right out and ask for a job first thing. It takes all kinds.

Phil Hawkins, Photographer

Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 3:32 PM on 02.02.10

->> Having reflected on this subject, I have also had to deal with one particular guy, who, during a Fresno State football game, asked me a question about the settings on his camera, which I answered. Now I can't get rid of him whenever I show up to shoot. I finally had to tell him "Dude, Read your manual!" He was asking me endless questions while the ball was in play! I also had a guy who started a chat with me EVERY TIME I logged onto Facebook. Finally had to de-friend him.

I can see where prominent photogs get deluged with stupid questions from rude beginners who more resemble the idiots on American Idol auditions than serious mature students of the craft. Sometimes you just get to a point that you don't want to engage people at all.

Chris Large, Photographer

Okotoks | AB | Canada | Posted: 12:46 AM on 02.03.10

->> Phil
I know what you mean and every time I get the feeling to say gfys....I look back at a couple of "success" stories I've had - especially from a ex military shooter who has crossed over to my area and has shoot a bunch of small movie projects and has the talent and the drive to make it to the bigs...I'm really glad every time I get a email from him with his latest news and updates.

He sends me his updates to his website, and I'm totally honest - and sometimes he tells me fine..I agree or what the f..k do you know....its good the way it is. Perfect - stand up for what you think.

I'm enjoying helping at this point in my career - big 60 coming up sooner rather than later, I'm not worried about competition - I have a solid client/producer/movie studio base, no mortgage, and both my kids almost out of university

You need to give back what you can....

C

Jon Wright, Photographer

Wayzata | MN | USA | Posted: 10:10 AM on 02.03.10

->> Over the years I have never had anyone acknowledge my response to the advice they asked for. I still send it out simply because so many people have helped me over the years. It may sound weird, but I actually respond as much for me. I sleep well at night knowing I tried to help someone. Simple courtesy has vanished from our culture. I see examples every day. I didn't grow up in that atmosphere. The more new ways we all have to communicate the less we actually do.

George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor

	Washington \| DC \| USA \| Posted: 12:47 PM on 02.03.10
	->> Chuck, in the e-mails you receive, the word before "you", is it "bless?" And in the few contacts I have had most of the people do respond with a thanks or a comment on what I've said.

Eric Canha, Photographer

	Brockton \| MA \| United States \| Posted: 12:53 PM on 02.03.10
	->> Phil..... Ear buds. Don't plug them into anything, just wear them. Stuff the wire into a pocket. Cuts out 90% of the chatter you get on the sidelines. I loved the week long exchange that I had with someone wanting to 'break in' to the business. After a week I was told I was too focused on the business side of photography and that he wanted more insight into the photography. Priceless.

Phil Hawkins, Photographer

	Fresno \| ca \| usa \| Posted: 1:08 PM on 02.03.10
	->> Eric, Ear buds; great idea! "You mean if I want to get into the photography business I have to learn about the business side? Hmmm...." LOL!!!

Eric Canha, Photographer

Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 2:16 PM on 02.03.10

->> Phil with some practice you can even learn to bob your head in time with the 'music' as someone approaches. I've also learned to answer a question by pointing at my bluetooth earpiece and have a 2 second conversation with thin air as I walk away.........

To be fair MANY shooters in the area know that I love a good conversation on the sideline between plays or when nothing much is happening. They know that I am very free with advice and examples of what has worked for me. These are the people who know that I'm working (mostly because they are WORKING too) and make conversation when it's appropriate. For those who don't 'get it' I've had to create 'polite' methods of staying focused.

The person emailing me was pretty convinced that all they had to do was mimic the Canon TV ad where a mom on the sideline gets a great shot of a 9 year old jumping 6 feet in the endzone to make a one hand catch for the TD. Nothing to it, happens at least once per game so sales will be rockin for him in no time. Business side would 'sort itself out' I was LOL and crying (not happy tears) at the same time.

OR

I should have asked if he was related to the woman shooting on the sideline with a circ polarizer and a speedlight. When I asked (let face it I HAD TO!) She told me that the clerk told her it would make the sky in the endzones 'pop'.

OR

The woman who told me that the umbrella off to the side of the softbox COULDN'T be 'fill' because fill is ALWAYS shot from the hotshoe and used to fill shadows and flatten the light..... She was 3 shades of pissed and almost made a scene at a shoot because I was so stupid as to call it a fill.

earbuds make for great shooting.....

Michael Fischer, Photographer

Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 12:59 AM on 02.04.10

->> Lack of manners and lack of knowledge - it's prevalent throughout society right now. Ask anyone dealing with the public and you'll get stories.. lots of stories. I'd guesstimate it's about 50% of the public.

And yet, the other 50% are grateful. Respectful. They appreciate your efforts. Try to focus on them, and know the other 50% will sink back into the primordial sludge...eventually.

For the record, I've both asked and been asked on here. Always got a response and always responded. Ask nice - ask respectfully and yeah, say "thank you".

Eric, brother.. I could tell you stories. File that one under "let's NOT confuse facts with the issue..."

Michael

Steve Saunders, Photographer, Photo Editor

Dublin | IE | Ireland | Posted: 8:13 AM on 02.04.10

->> Good post and observations Chris. I own a small motorcycle forum at www.goldwingfacts.com/forums and I still regularly get people emailing me for advice (what tires to buy, how to change oil etc) even though all the answers are already in the forum and are easy to find.
It seems that many people just can't be bothered to look and they want an answer right now.
Nowadays I reply to these questions politely, referring the person to the forum instead of typing out long replies to questions which have already been answered on the forum many many times.

Jim Rogash, Photographer

	Norton \| MA \| USA \| Posted: 12:04 PM on 02.05.10
	->> We are all a bunch of bums!

Steven Ickes, Photographer

Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 11:48 AM on 02.08.10

->> Eric: I'm with you on the earbuds thing. I've been doing that for a couple of years now. I do like to hear what's going on around me so I never plug them into anything but the inside of my jacket. I don't typically show up with them as it does have a tendency to give people (customers) the impression that I'm unapproachable BUT if there happens to be someone there who just won't stop interrupting, I immediately break them out. Works everytime.

Robby Gallagher, Student/Intern, Photo Editor

	Brookings \| SD \| USA \| Posted: 12:34 PM on 02.08.10
	->> A simple, thank you and I appreciate you time is always. good. I asked a photographer from this site the same things, but I always thanked him for his time. A simple thank you, means a lot to someone who goes out of their way to help you.

Richard Orr, Photographer

Longmeadow | MA | USA | Posted: 2:43 PM on 02.09.10

->> Eric,

I love the folks that come up to me on the sidelines, usually during the first week of football or soccer season. They ask a bunch of questions, tell you how they just got all of the this equipment and they are going to start shooting for living. And then they pretty much figure they will put me out of business within the next six months.

You see them a couple of times. Then it rains. And you never see them again.

I dont like earbuds, because I tend to get run over and I like to hear them before I get hit.

Eric Canha, Photographer

Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 3:25 PM on 02.09.10

->> The ear buds are meant to keep people in check WHILE a game is going on. I'm as big a chatter box as anyone else. I love to exchange ideas, tips and gear reviews with just about anyone on the sideline. The issue comes when someone wants to have a chat on 3rd and 2 from the 5.....

Richard, GWC's happened more to me in years gone by. I just don't see as many people with cameras as I did 2 or 3 years ago. Maybe one or two and sure enough they'd be gone by week 3. Even the parents that do have cameras seem to be getting tired of watching a game through a viewfinder.

Last week I licensed 2 shots to a paper. The kicker is that the kids in those shots in years past had mom on the mat shooting their matches. The novelty must have worn off because mom was there for this 'milestone' event and stayed in the stands. Four days later the paper is paying me for the shots because there were only 2 cameras at this match and the other was from a competing paper. Had that been last year mom would have sent the photo in for free.

~e

Larry Lawson, Photographer

Portland | OR | USA | Posted: 12:04 PM on 02.10.10

->> Earbuds... when I'm in The Pit in Eugene, then yes, if only to save my hearing. But other times no. I believe that if we don't like the behavior of people, our job is not to present an image so we don't get bothered, but to try and demonstrate the behavior we do want to see.

Eric: absolutely on the money about at critical points in a game. I tell them to hang on a sec - they get the idea.

As for lack of camers, not around here. The papers don't pay anything as the parents send in so much and the 'terms of use' of the blog is that paper can use the images posted in any way, or alter them, without even giving credit. Basically the paper owns the image if sent in. The photo blogs give the username, but that's it. If it goes to print, credit reads from the paper's name.

As for the original thread, people have lost the 'please, thank you, I appreciate it, etc.' lines of interaction, and all that is taught in the home. Parents don't seem to have the time or care over the past 20 years. I think maybe when they grow older, they get it then :)

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