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Phojo School Help
Kristopher Wilson, Photographer
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Virginia Beach | VA | USA | Posted: 1:33 AM on 01.12.10 |
->> Well, looks like my time as a Navy photojournalist is coming to a close in the next couple of months. Now that I know for sure that I will be getting out, I would like to seek out some professional opinions/advice/suggestions/etc. from you guys and gals.
Here's the situation: as I said I'm getting out of the Navy, and staying in is not an option (so please no "you should stay in" responses). Nothing against the Navy; it's given me a lot and I've given a lot to it, but now it's time for my family and me to move on. The dilemma I'm facing is whether I want to try to test the waters of the shark tank/job market or if I want to go to j-school. I'm leaning towards school because of how the industry is in flux for now and the forseeable future, and also because I'll be able to use my Post-9/11 G.I. Bill to cover all of my schooling and provide me with a semi-liveable income. And honestly, I really have no idea where to start or what my first step should be if I want to get my first cup of coffee in the civilian phojo world.
Another decision I have to make is where I want to go to school. I've got 30 credits (including upper level) I earned through the military phojo course at Syracuse Univ., on top of the majority of my core classes knocked out from my pre-military college "experience" as well as credits earned through professional military experience. I was leaning toward the University of Missouri, partly because of their J-school's stature in the industry, and partly because it's in my wife's hometown (i.e.- cheap/free lodging, free babysitters, family proximity, etc.). Being so close to family would also make it easier for my wife to look for a position as a physician assistant while I'm in school. The down side to Mizzou, and it's a big one, is that they won't accept any of my Syracuse credits or any of my military experience, even as electives, so I'd basically be starting from square one again and I don't know if I'm ready to do that.
I've also been looking at the University of Texas, but I haven't heard a whole lot about their phojo program or J-school. I do know that with such a large student newspaper (largest in the nation), a large and successful athletic program, and vibrant and lively location, the shooting opportunities seem pretty endless. Plus the larger city means more opportunities for my wife to find work (in theory). Another plus about Texas is that they would accept a large number of my Syracuse credits as well as some of my military experience. Plus the G.I. Bill housing stipend is higher in Austin than it is in Columbia.
I know there are other prestigious programs out there (WKU, Ohio, UNC, etc.), but I think I'm pretty content narrowing down my choices to those two schools. And before anyone suggests it, I'm not going back to Syracuse. Love the people, love the staff, love the school, but definitely not a fan of the location and weather. One of those winters is enough for me. Likewise, before anyone says it, I plan on taking plenty of business and convergence/multimedia journalism courses. I know there will be some who say to run as fast as I can from this industry. No thanks.
So if anyone out there has any thoughts/suggestions/advice/etc., either professionally, educationally, or both, please respond. There's not a collective opinion I value more than that of this community. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Indiana | IN | USA | Posted: 1:41 AM on 01.12.10 |
| ->> Pick something that there is a good future for jobs. J-school, photojournalism, etc. is not it. It's been covered here time and time again. There are way too many people who have joined the unemployment ranks because there are no jobs. Do yourself a favor, take a hard, realistic look at what is happening and then, pick something that has jobs now and future job growth. |
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Dann Wunderlich, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Chicago | IL | US | Posted: 1:47 AM on 01.12.10 |
->> Talk to David Rees at MIzzou. He is the guy you want to talk to about mizzou. He will make sure that you make the right decision about whether or not mizzou is for you.
David Rees, Chair Photojournalism
Co-Director Missouri Photo Workshop
109 Lee Hills Hall
Missouri School of Journalism
Columbia, MO 65211
573-882-3635
ReesD@missouri.edu
http://photojournalism.missouri.edu
david is a great guy. |
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Brian Hollingsworth, Photographer
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Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 4:16 PM on 01.12.10 |
->> Kristopher I'm finishing up my Master's in Photoj at Texas. I've lived in Austin for 10 years. I'd be happy to answer any questions you or any other potential photoj student wants to discuss about Austin or the program at UT.
While I was a full-time student I worked as a T.A. in the photo lab and taught students from undergrad to grad level, so I have a good sense of the whole program and the students.
You can email me directly or give me a call, My info is on my member page. |
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Wesley Hitt, Photographer
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Fayetteville | AR | USA | Posted: 8:11 AM on 01.13.10 |
->> Have you looked at a photo school like Hallmark Institute of Photography in
Massachusetts. It is not a college but teaches a lot more photography and business then you would get with a degree. I also have to agree with Jeff that photo-j is a tough way to go right now.
After saying that, follow your gut. Anyone can be successful at whatever they choose if they learn enough and work hard enough. |
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Sam Santilli, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Philippi | WV | USA | Posted: 9:30 AM on 01.13.10 |
->> Kris, colleges are getting more & more competitive. Let Mizzou know what Texas is offereing. Your wife bieng a PA should be able to get a job anywhere in the country.
Even if you do not go into PJ, just having the college "sheep skin" is a big plus. BTW, thanks for your service to our country! |
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Margaret Bowles, Photographer
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Houston | TX | | Posted: 9:55 AM on 01.13.10 |
| ->> I just want to point out that a journalism degree is an excellent degree to have as a foundation even if you never work as a journalist. Unlike other majors like English or history, a journalism degree gives you specific writing skills that are marketable and provide a springboard into other fields, like law or business. So, if you do go to journalism school, be sure to take plenty of writing courses as well as the photojournalism courses. Learning how to gather facts and data and put them into a concise and logical form is a skill that you will use over and over in your life, no matter how you earn your living. It is a skill that is the foundation of every legal brief and every business memo. |
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G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
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Dallas | TX | US | Posted: 10:00 AM on 01.13.10 |
->> With all due respect to Jeff, if you want to study photography or photojournalism (please don't call it "phojo" -- that makes the baby Jesus cry), go for it. Ultimately it's your dime and time, so study what makes you happy and interests you. But ...
Be aware that the market in photojournalism (especially at newspapers) from everything from internships on up to staff jobs is ridiculously tight and shows no signs of getting much better. The flush years of the 70s, 80s and early 90s have given way to a much (much!) leaner reality and most establishments are hemorrhaging talent like a sieve. Granted, you're no dummy and you probably know all this already -- just being honest.
Having said that, newspapers are not the end-all, be-all of photojournalism. I'm no psychic and I won't make predictions, but I do think the Internet is a sky's-the-limit marketplace where, hopefully, good work will thrive. The question will be how, if ever, that's monetized, at least enough to keep folks gainfully employed.
Anyway, back to your question ...
I had the opportunity to be in close proximity to both schools you're considering. I actually got my degree at UT. My major was print journalism (thought I was going to be a reporter), but I took every photojournalism class they let me.
Good school, good faculty, great studying environment. And this was back in the early "ought's," before some of the "bigger names" got there.
As far as Missouri goes, I jokingly say I got my degree from there "by proxy" -- I worked at the Columbia Tribune for a little less than three years. I made a lot of friends in that program, and it's reputation is pretty well deserved.
Neither school is perfect. Like a lot of things in life, they are whatever you make of them; what you put in is what you'll get back. It sounds like financials will be a big part of your consideration, so I think it's good to go with whatever makes the most economic sense for you. College just gets more and more expensive by the second -- the difference in tuition and fees just from when I graduated back in 2002 is mind-numbing -- so it's good to think that part through.
One last thought, one you'll see in other threads on the topic or get in conversations with folks about this topic -- study other things besides journalism and photography, especially if you're crazy enough to try this profession. Take some business and marketing classes. Take a psychology or anthropology class. Take a pottery class and make 57 ashtrays.
Point is, don't limit yourself. Use the access to all those myriad disciplines to make yourself the most well-rounded individual possible. Knowledge is power, right? Study anything and everything you think might make you a stronger candidate in the marketplace.
And above all, have fun. You'll be getting out of the military and transitioning into civilian life -- "back in the world," as my beloved author Tobias Wolff has called it. That's a honey of a transition that can be complex but richly rewarding -- soak in every second of it.
If you have any specific questions about UT or MU, I too am happy to offer my help; shoot me an email.
Best of luck, and enjoy your studies. As an animated Mr. T once said in a SNL "TV Funhouse" sketch ...
"If you believe in yourself, drink your school, stay in drugs, and don't do milk -- you can get work!"
- gerry - |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:50 AM on 01.13.10 |
| ->> Kristopher, I wish you luck. That said and since you asked I will say it one more time. Talent, drive, eagerness, education, and "your gut" will not, I repeat, will not get you a job. Plain and simple. Several other people on this thread have given you solid advice. Everyone likes "taking pictures". Geez, the other day I was shooting a veterinarian who was out taking nature photos and he said, "I sure wish I could get paid to wander around taking photos". The guys a vet....probably makes about four times what I do (which ain't much). The point I'm trying to make (again) is that unfortunately no matter what your gut tells you or how much you "like" taking photos in this day and time it is almost insane to try and get into this field. Have you been keeping up with the various threads here on SS? Have you seen how many seasoned staffers have been laid off in the last month around the country? Our paper announced yesterday we are losing 21 more positions. I personally know one shooter who was laid off last year and tried to make a go of it in the freelance world...they just reapplied for unemployment again because the freelance market in our area is jammed with extremely talented shooters and now there are the laid off pj's swelling the ranks. You have a family. Salaries are also dropping (wage freezes, pay cuts, furloughs) I hope your wife will be making lots of money. My kid is grown but I can tell you there is no way I could have raised a kid on my salary alone. That's a hard cold fact a lot of newspaper photographers never talk about. I really think you should weigh these kinds of facts. Ask your wife how she feels about you wanting to spend four years in college to get a degree where there are no job prospects. The common thought is it might level off but we will never have the same staffing we used to. So in all reality where does that leave a guy four years from now (or five) holding a PJ degree? I surely don't have a crystal ball but when you look at how many photojournalism schools there are across the country who are pumping out 20-30 graduates a year (maybe more at the bigger schools) where are these non-existent jobs coming from. I realize there is another line of thought that newspapers aren't the only outlet for those with a photojournalism degree anymore...I mean there's the internet (insert laugh track here) and various organizations who might need a shooter (Red Cross, Doctors without Borders, etc..) but for all intents and purposes you are going to be looking at a rough, long road that may end up at a dead end. Sorry for the long winded post but you asked.....8). |
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Lee Weissman, Photographer
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XXXXX | NY | USA | Posted: 11:32 AM on 01.13.10 |
->> I was a photojournalist for many years in one of the tougher markets who two years ago was lucky enough (and I do mean very lucky) to be offered a position in the private sector as an in house photographer. It is an industry that does not pay incredibly well, but does offer security and benefits. I work for a great supportive boss, my gear is paid for, and am encouraged to be creative at all times. I am still on good terms with my former paper and am offered freelance on a regular basis. I am one of the team photographers for an NFL team. Why am I telling you this? To illustrate that I feel I am one of the very lucky ones who has been a survivor in a market that shrinks everyday. My job at the paper was fairly secure when I left. But I saw the writing on the wall and felt it was time for me to move on. When I told my editor his response was, "seems like a smart move for you." To this day a lot of people think I am genius for the move. The real answer was right place right time.
I teach a photojournalism class at a university. This past semester I walked in on the first day and said "Photojournalism is dead, the final is May 5th, see you then." The kids were mortified, but I was telling them the truth through my eyes.
Here is what I am trying to get at. I tell my kids all the time the only piece of advice I will ever give them that has any value is this..."Find something you like to do, find a way to make a living at it, and then you don't have to go to work." If this is what drives you, and this is what you think you are good at, then go for it. Make your decision on what the school can do for you after you are done, that is more important than what they can do for you while you are there. Work in the community while in school at places not affiliated with the school. Make contacts. Don't be fooled by the glitz and glamour of pro sports, look for meat and potatoes work that has income, and longevity. Don't frown on weddings and events, and doing something for a day is better than nothing.
Best of luck |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 1:50 PM on 01.13.10 |
->> Wow. Let me say I am NOT a pj or photographer by trade. It is a passion for me and at times a second job.
I am going to disagree with Margaret Bowles a bit here though. Besides photojournalism she mentioned English and History majors (indicated PJ was more useful than the others). Here's the reality of the job market in it's entirety - it's tough out there. In almost any field, it's a buyer's market. That means whatever employer is hiring degreed professionals can be very selective. While the above-mentioned degrees are well and good if you're going to move on to law school and get a JD, as the summit of your education they will get you a job waiting tables. If you think you can parlay an English or PJ degree into a job in corporate America when you've got people with MBAs, marketing or business degrees. If you want actual employment in todays job market you either need trade skills / background or relevant work experience and relevant degree.
Let me say this - my cousin, like you, served honorably in the armed forces (he was a marine). He pissed away hs GI Bill funds and 10 years after getting out of the marines is still waiting tables. You mention you have a family already. You're in a great situation with funds to pay for a degree to help you get a career. But all degrees are NOT created equal. You need to look at what jobs there are that will allow you to support your family. Based on that knowledge and the notion of which of those fields are a match for you, then choose the major/degree that will get you that job.
The notion of "follow your dreams" is, to me, naive at best. Unemployment is rampant - not just in journalism but everywhere.
Right now things look easy for you because you can live off the money through a degree program. But if the degree you choose isn't going to land you a job then your family suffers. And by then it's too late to turn around and get a degree capable of landing you a job. Too many people with college degrees are out of work right now. They all want jobs. The people that get the jobs are the ones with relevant work experience and relevant degrees/credentials/certifications. So, spend the government's money wisely or you end up like my cousin - 37 years old, waiting tables and unable to afford a home or any retirement savings. But, unlike you, he isn't supporting a family. |
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Luke Sharrett, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Washington | DC | United States | Posted: 3:14 PM on 01.13.10 |
| ->> Gee whiz, anyone know where the nearest cliff is? This thread makes me want to end it all right now. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 3:27 PM on 01.13.10 |
->> Luke it's not all gloom and doom. But when you have a family to support, you have to deal in the world of reality and not the world of Oz. The reality in a tough economy is - you need to do some research into what career fields are showing signs of growth. Then look at what the requirements are to get jobs in those fields. While a 21 year old English or PJ graduate can move back in with mom & dad and work at Blockbuster until they find something better, a person with a family to support doesn't have that luxury. And, unlike many people who don't have the financial resources to go to college, the OP here has a great opportunity. They have funds to pay for education. But that is only a good investment if the degree they invest that money in lands them a job. But you have to start with the JOB and work backwards. What JOBS are there and what jobs are showing growth? If you can't find a direct line from jobs with growth back to a degree then it's a risky investment. With a family, the risk is more than just your life. That's the world people with dependents have to live in. No need to jump off a bridge but by the same token people shouldn't skip down the yellow brick road in some hope that the Wizard at the end will hand them a job.
This is a little more serious than "should I buy Nikon or Canon" |
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Matt Marriott, Photographer
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Tampa | FL | USA | Posted: 1:44 PM on 01.17.10 |
->> Kristopher, here are my two cents. You obviously didn't ask for advice on whether you should get a degree in photojournalism or economics so I will stick to the point. If you have a passion for photojournalism than by all means you should pursue it and not something else. It is exactly that which will decide your success or failure, not the market or any other factor.
That being said, when I got out of the Navy. I immediately enrolled in the photojournalism program at the University of Florida. I knew exactly what I wanted to do after a four year struggle with the Navy attempting to cross-rate into Photographers Mate. I was constantly put off by detailers and my own command who said my rate in aviation was much more critical than that of photographer. The military machine has bigger fish to fry than fulfilling the dreams of its foot soldiers. However, when it was my turn to choose, I went back to school and it was the most crucial decision I have made as it factored more heavily in my success than anything I have since done.
Besides having the degree (which is mainly sort of a moral victory in this field, although many jobs still require it) the network I established as a direct result of having attended the University of Florida has been INVALUABLE. The in school training is almost secondary to what I learned while creating my network at places like the school newspaper (the Alligator -the largest Independent school newspaper in the country btw) Poynter Institute seminars and the Eddie Adams Workshop. I never would have been able to do any of those things without the backing of the University. The alumni network out of UF (and any other major program) is staggering and grads are always willing to help one another out. I started working for honorary UF alum Bill Frakes at Sports Illustrated while still in school, an association I never would have made on my own. Working with him and SI was another critical step in my current success (read financial viability) and it never would have come to be if I didn't go back to school.
I'm giving you real advice here, not some depressed discourse on the state of the industry from talented, yet soon to be out of work newspaper photographers. If you are driven (like a steel pile driver driven) you will make it in photojournalism or photography or whatever is left when the dust settles. If you aren't, there is no hope for you... you'll be totally [profanity]ed and will probably end up photographing babies with soft focus lenses in front of faux Anne Geddes backdrops in the mall for $7 dollars an hour... if you're lucky.
If you want it bad, then by all means go back to school, work hard, shoot a lot and put yourself out there. Meet as many people as you can, go to a lot of workshops and start creating your network both within the industry and whatever community you choose to live in. Your success or failure depends solely on working hard and making the right moves but in the end it's all on you and don't let anyone tell you any different. |
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Brooks Von Arx, Jr., Photographer
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Little Silver | NJ | | Posted: 2:20 PM on 01.17.10 |
| ->> Give a listen to Jack Howard's Tech Talk podcast #29 with Stacey Pearsall two time MPOY and founding member of Legionphoto.com, may be some good ideas there. |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 8:33 AM on 01.18.10 |
->> Just a thought. The transferring into Mizzou thing with credits is annoying, I went through it. Their J school is quite picky, but the school as a whole will take your credits, right? The not taking credits is a J thing? Work your tail off and throw in a second major that complements the journalism or is nothing like it.
Facts are the job market is rough and, unlike lawyers (another overpopulated field), there are very limited journalism opportunities. There are definitely options there.
Also, if you are going to be living in Columbia, you have summer school. While losing 30 creds hurts, you can make up some of that, most of that. We are talking 30 credits. If you were in the 60 credit range or more, well, I would tell you that you are nuts.
You do need to talk to Dave Rees at Mizzou and whoever the point person is at Texas and pointedly asked them - "What will (Mizzou/Texas) offer me to make me competitive when I graduate in this rapidly changing and evolving field?"
Truly, the 30 credits be-damned, whoever answers that question best is your place. |
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Ron Erdrich, Photographer
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Abilene | TX | USA | Posted: 7:20 PM on 01.18.10 |
->> Kris, I was a Navy Photographer back in the 80s and faced the same choices as you. UT wasn't an option then, but it has risen in stature in recent years, to be sure.
I went to Mizzou and really enjoyed it. Plus there is an automatic assumption of the quality of your education whenever you tell someone where you went to school. Of course, that assumption lasts only a short time, but it can give you an edge. That was the primary reason why I chose MU. A great reputation and a solid curriculum.
I think Austin is also a great choice. I live in Abilene and I am very impressed by that city, it's a lot like San Francisco except warmer. I don't know a whole lot about the program, but I do think the town offers a lot in terms of storytelling possibilities and real-life issues.
One thing I really liked about Missouri was being able to sit in on the Pictures of the Year judging. That itself was worth the price of admission. I learned so much from sitting in the dark listening to editors debate photography.
As a town, Columbia was nice when I was there but it is a small college community in a rural state. St. Louis and Kansas City are about 90 minutes away each direction. There are a lot of neat places to hike along the river and to go fishing/hunting.
You should visit these places before you make a choice, though. Go during the semester when kids are in class.
It's kind of fun being a Navy photo vet in a program like that. You've had a lot more experience than even most of the grad students and, at least in my case, you're still an undergrad.
I wouldn't worry about the state of photojournalism or media. Contrary to popular opinion, photojournalism is alive and well and is being practiced in a variety of forms. You may or may not end up with a news organization and may do some other kind of photography, but if photography is what you love then by all means pursue it. There are more ways to earn a living taking pictures than working for papers.
And go on calling it Phojo School, I promise you the baby Jesus has bigger things to cry over. |
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Kristopher Wilson, Photographer
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Virginia Beach | VA | USA | Posted: 12:10 AM on 01.19.10 |
| ->> Thank you all for your advice and suggestions. I will absolutely take it to heart when the time comes to make my decision. Honestly, I haven't really had a chance to think much more about it since I posted. I just got back from a seven month deployment last month and now I'm back on a ship (USS Bataan) off the coast of Haiti. Don't know how long we'll be here but I'm assuming it'll be as long as it takes to help as many people as we can. Leaving the family for the third extended time within a year really sucks, but we have a mission and there are stories that need to be told. Hopefully God will give me the vision to create important imagery, and I can only hope for the same for all the other photographers out there. |
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