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To My Canadian Brethren & Canonesses - TSN Editorial Rates
Robert Weitzel, Photographer
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Regina | SK | Canada | Posted: 11:17 AM on 01.11.10 |
->> Okay, so this is not a message that pertains to religion or women who specifically shoot Canon gear but I thought it may get your attention. Just wondering if anyone has shot for TSN in Canada and what their editorial rate is per image. Yes, this is another fine case of an organization using photos without the photographers permission. You would think they would know better... and they had the balls to say "they were small prints the athlete's parents purchased and there was no copyright notice on the images" however they were informed the photos were taken by a professional photographer.
High road or low road? Help me out here people. |
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Richard Denham, Photographer
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Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 1:39 PM on 01.11.10 |
->> depends on what it was & what it was used for.
I have not dealt with TSN directly as they tend to go through wires or agencies so I couldn't get you a price, but I would figure pretty much along the lines of any other online usage for a major TV network.
Maybe the boys south of the border could chime in on what they get shooting for ESPN, seeing as it's pretty much the same thing. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 2:50 PM on 01.11.10 |
->> Since they've already done the wrong thing, the amount that they customarily pay should have little to do with it.
--Mark |
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Robert Weitzel, Photographer
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Regina | SK | Canada | Posted: 9:39 AM on 01.12.10 |
->> Thanks for the input guys. I have actually worked for ESPN and the two are not at all on the same page. Mark makes a good point.
Fact is, two images were used full-screen for a television production that was likely seen by more viewers than anything else TSN did all year. They were images of a Saskatchewan Roughrider player aired during a feed mess-up when they were to be showing the CFL West Final between Calgary and Saskatchewan. There was some technical glitch at game time and they needed some filler so they showed this Player Profile segment which leads me to believe this programming and these images were also used on more than this one occasion and I just don't know it.
They have offered me what I consider to be a slap in the face stating that the prints were "small and provided by the parents of the athlete". An amount that I would charge for a single-use editorial rate for a small local publication. Most of my work has been produced for and priced based on printed publications or web. I have no idea how national TV compares or how I should price this and be somewhat reasonable (not that I want to be reasonable - the little horned guy on my shoulder says I should get my lawyers involved). That said, I do know advertising on TV and television production is outrageously priced when compared to print or web so perhaps I should price accordingly.
Thoughts? |
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Dan Bannister, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | Canada | Posted: 10:24 AM on 01.12.10 |
->> Robert,
I'd be careful about contacting a lawyer or threatening to do so until you make sure you understand Canadian Copyright law. It's very different than the US version in that in Canada, once you accept payment for an image, the client gets the rights to use it however they see fit, unless you have a contract that states otherwise, in advance. So, if you go to a lawyer they should tell you that the parents had every right to give the images to TSN and that you are owed nothing (again, unless you had a contract with the parents saying otherwise). Of course, based on past experience, the lawyer will tell you you have an airtight, slam dunk case, charge you a retainer and shrug and say "sorry 'bout that" when it's all over.
You can download the copyright act from the gc.ca website pretty easily so, give it a read.
As for networks, Entertainment Tonight contacted me a couple of weeks ago, wanting to use an image of an Olympic skater as part of a profile and when I asked "what do you normally pay for this type of usage?" she was shocked, and snotilly said "we don't PAY for pictures". I said I was sorry but, I don't supply images for free and she acted like I was the bastard for not just giving it to her. She actually hung up on me.
I've got a bunch more TV network stories just like it so, in my experience, they don't pay very well.
My advice, take whatever you can get, make sure you understand Canadian copyright law, join CAPIC to help get it changed and consider creating a contract for print sales of athletes. |
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Robert Weitzel, Photographer
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Regina | SK | Canada | Posted: 11:06 AM on 01.12.10 |
->> Dan,
Thanks for this. I think I will take your advise. That said, my invoices indicate that images are copyright. In big bold print they read "All Images Copyright Rob Weitzel Graphic Productions". Anything sent out electronically for web or otherwise include the following:
"Rob Weitzel Graphic Productions maintains copyright of images provided both electronically and printed. Images are for personal use only and can not be distributed, reproduced, sold, or used for any purpose, commercial, editorial or otherwise.
For license information, commercial usage inquiries, or more information, please contact:"
This being the case with the bases covered, would you still feel the same way?
Again, I appreciate all the input. |
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Robert Weitzel, Photographer
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Regina | SK | Canada | Posted: 2:09 PM on 01.15.10 |
->> Dan,
Thanks again for your response to my post regarding copyright and TSN. I did some further research on the gc.ca site as you recommended as a refresher (I knew some of this stuff at one point in the past I am sure) and found only a reference to when a photographer is "ordered" to and compensated for the creation of images, as in a wedding photographer or an event photographer is compensated for his work by those who hired him and thereby the copyright is owned by those who ordered the making of the photos. In my case, a person purchased a prints of images that I made and then they distributed it. TSN then published them without my license. The images were not made on behalf of those who purchased the prints and I had not been paid by them or anyone involved to make them. They purchased a piece of paper and no transfer of copyright was implied or licensed.
Am I way off track here? Am I misreading the following or is there another section of the law specific to the purchase of a photo and what can happen after that? I am certain that because I pay for TSN's signal or because I pay for an artist's print, I can't run out and start redistributing it just because I bought a copy.
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Ownership of Copyright
(1) Subject to this Act, the author of a work shall be the first owner of the copyright.
Engraving, photograph or portrait
(2) Where, in the case of an engraving, photograph or portrait, the plate or other original was ordered by some other person and was made for valuable consideration, and the consideration was paid, in pursuance of that order, in the absence of any agreement to the contrary, the person by whom the plate or other original was ordered shall be the first owner of the copyright.
________________ |
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Sean Burges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Ottawa | ON | Canada | Posted: 11:45 AM on 01.16.10 |
->> Dan,
If you aren't sure, sign up to Access Copyright (accesscopyright.ca) and they can maybe help you out. I think they mostly deal with print/text issues, but they do have the copyright expertise. If they don't, they can steer you to the appropriate source.
Best,
Sean |
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Robert Weitzel, Photographer
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