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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
PDN:Pricing Debate: Usage Fees vs. Hourly Rates
John Strohsacker, Photographer
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 4:51 PM on 01.07.10 |
->> Read it last night. Regardless of which way you go personally, the bottom line is the total mess of our industry, the idiot "pros" the uninformed "hobbyists" and retired white collars that shoot and give out photos "for the fun of it" have made us look like swindling used car salesmen and its no wonder no one trusts us.
If you go one way, clients who know the value of proper pricing will label you as a troglodyte who can't even be depended upon to meet them at the negotiating table, and the less educated client will cry foul and wonder why a two hour shoot isn't shot by the hour.
What would I like? A really extensive database of assignments and what photographers have shot them for, for a whole host of things, whether it be hourly or creative fee/usage fee based. Then, a heavy debate on the material presented to level it all out. The problem is, too many photographers keep that info too close, and in my opinion, just adds to harming the industry even more. Coke knows what Pepsi charges, just as much as Michelin knows how much a Firestone tire goes for. Honestly, I am all for a competition of skill and performance than who can undercut the other–which is always who wins the bids under me anymore. |
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Preston Mack, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 5:44 PM on 01.07.10 |
| ->> Problem is, many would just take that info and undercut the competition. |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 6:08 PM on 01.07.10 |
->> And it isn't happening already? Wake up Preston.
I don't see John Harrington twisting in the wind for having examples of pricing on his site, and I am not even asking photographers to list their name on pricing examples the've done, but to contribute to a master database of pricing that can encompass nationwide examples.
My mindset is this. When I see a price too good to be true on an item, usually shopping around on the internet, I grow dubious, because some things can be too cheap, and I tend to lean more to a tried and true source, or one that I can be reasonably assured is accountable. Maybe clients just need to be educated as to what certain services are expected to go for and how. I am just so tired of the multiple ways photogs charge for service, both accountable and pissing-in-the-wind bids. I would love for a database to foster a confidence in photographer pricing and educating them all. I know John's site is a good indicator, I know Photoquote is a good program, and I know there are some spots here and there that show sample estimates and quotes like
http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/09/10/advertising-shoot-estimates-national/
but there needs to me more effort. If we really are trying to make it without staff jobs, and educate clients to the proper way for us to bill an assignment, then let's get serious and get ASMP, PPA, and all the others to commit to something anyone can go to to get an idea of what is too low and what is too high.
I don't know, maybe I am just frustrated by getting underbid here anymore, by hacks that aren't fulltime pros, but perform "good enough" to put an image in the client's hands. I just see way to much confusion from the pro photo community on this matter and I hear from potential clients all the time "well such and such doesn't do usage, or I get to keep my photos,"
We just need more cohesion amongst ourselves, and that starts with being more upfront with how we ALL price out. |
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Hal Smith, Photographer
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Sedalia | MO | USA | Posted: 5:00 PM on 01.11.10 |
->> I find this discussion frustrating, for the sole fact that I used to shoot predominately for commercial and advertising clients after working as photojournalist for a few years after graduating college.
I had some clients that would balk at an estimate for a job, then find another "photographer" to shoot the job at a cheaper price only to have an art director call weeks later to do a re-shoot because the "photographer" hired for the job could not technically pull it off. I had one client hire an underbid on three different occasions before they figured out that was cheaper to hire the guy that knew how to shoot their product correctly the first time than to constantly have it re-shot.
Today with the advantage of digital cameras, photoshop, fast computers and "photographers" cropping up under every stone rates fallen dramatically turning the work of the established photographer into a commodity that can bought and sold for pennies on the dollar because we as a community have not really worked together to protect our product. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 6:00 PM on 01.11.10 |
->> Guys,
This pricing issue has been going on since I graduated 25 years ago, and has been going on strong and hasn't changed since. The only thing that has changed is the economy.
Pricing is an ever changing thing and for what I've seen, changes from city to city too, at least in the Commercial world.
Back in 1987, when I started shooting in Stamford, CT a Commercial Day Rate of $1200 wouldn't make anyone blink. But two years earlier in Dallas that was a little high. I moved to the Phoenix are in 1992, and day rates were significantly lower there. When I move to Columbia, MO in 2003, they would have thought I was on Crack if I dared to charge the $1200 Day Rate that was OK back in 1987. Especially with the abundance of Photography Students in the Columbia Area.
I'm in the Phoenix area again, but I don't have a single local client, all my clients are spread throughout the country, not a single local client, I have tried to standardize my pricing, it has been a chore but I'm finally accomplishing my goals so that my pricing is fair, within industry standards all over the country.
I know that some folks out there will never want to pay what I charge. Some clients will settle for lower quality for the sake of saving money. Trust me guys, I have heard it all in the past 25 years from "My buddy Joe that owns a DSLR" and "My wife's nephew that is taking a Photo Class in College" Now, who's fault is that??? Not me.. The fault lies in those that will lowball in order to do the jobs and in the clients that hire the lowballers in order to save the cash!!
Hal, you mentioned Art Directors that would get your price and hire someone cheaper. Trust me I know about that!! When I worked in Columbia, I had to deal with hundreds of PJ students bidding against me on Commercial Studio jobs, and the Local Art Directors and Photography Buyers that would rather hire a "Local" Mizzou PJ Student rather than the Lowly Brooks Grad with the 20+ years of Commercial Experience for that Commercial Studio Shoot. Now, who;s fault is that??? Not the Mizzou PJ student, he needs the money, but he doesn't know how to charge in the Commercial World, remember, he's a PJ Student and Mizzou doesn't have a Commercial Photography Department. The fault lies in the client, the one that doesn't want to pay the going Commercial Rate and takes advantage of the student that doesn't know how much to charge for a Commercial Shoot.
There's more to this story, I can go on for hours.
You can read my post on the PDN Thread, or if you want, I can post it here too!!
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 6:19 PM on 01.11.10 |
->> BTW Preston, I don't want to undercut anyone!! I want to ge the most $$ I can for what I do!!
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 6:59 PM on 01.11.10 |
->> FWIW, and the local Phoenix person that sent me the anonymous Nastygram, I'm not a PJ, nor do I EVER want to be one. I am a Commercial Photographer, that's what I like, that is what I do, that is what I have been doing for the past 25 years. The only Sports Photography I really want to do is at the Shooting Events for the Corporate Clients that pay me the Corporate Day Rates I charge.
BTW, Don't judge me for my friends. Sending anonymous Nastygrams is not going to get you too far. This is actually the TRUE Problem we have in our industry, Rumors and innuendo are taken as facts more times that they should!! You want to know about me and my business practices, call me, directly and behave like a grown Professional.
As a parting note....
"Mind the toes you step on today, they might be attached to an Ass you might have to kiss tomorrow"
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 8:57 PM on 01.11.10 |
->> N. Scott, The several professional organizations cannot define prices. It's against the law.
--Mark |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 4:22 PM on 01.18.10 |
->> Mark, I know they can't "Define" the prices. Not asking them too, but I can bet there is no law that states they can't provide a database where everyone can input what they charge/settle for on assignments. It's no different than photographers sitting around a table discussing it. I am just saying perhaps there should be more sharing of that information.
Apparently, since I have asked some local photographers and a few in Phoenix, I am charging way too much for instance for business portraits per type of usage. But, according to my literature, I am pricing right. Again, I know there are sample invoices on aphotoeditor.com and that is great, I just want a little more than that, I don't need necessarily a whole estimate copied over, but a little more like John H's site even, an online excel sheet that tabulates amounts inputed in by photographers for for photo type, usage and an averaging amount that augments as new entries are made. I think that would be an interesting and useful tool, perhaps break it down by states too. Nothing illegal there. |
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