| Sign in: |
| Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features. |
|
|
|
|
|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Poinsettia Bowl fiasco
Nick Morris, Photographer
 |
San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 12:54 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> I have to say I was embarrassed to be a photographer covering the Poinsettia Bowl game in San Diego last night. How is it we can all respect each others space on the side lines, use our expensive gear to zoom in to a players face 50 yards away and then suddenly when the last second ticks off we act like star crazed fans with a pass to stick our cameras 2 inches from the winner and losers face? I understand getting great shots of the winners and losers but, we have gear that can allow everyone the opportunity to basically get the same shot. Now I lay some of the blame on NCAA for not setting up a better situation for photographers but when I hear chants from the players behind us "fight, fight, fight" referring to the photographers shoving each other around like housewives at a Wal Mart giveaway, that's disturbing. A fight did break out between two photographers and one poor video guy took the blunt of their shoving match and almost hit the ground gear and all. After the awards ceremony ended and the dust settled, there stood two photographers in each others face. It looked like the typical David and Goliath scene. The big guy was shoving the little guy all the while players and staff were laughing their asses off and calling us all Paparazzi. Come on people this is so un necessary! Can't we show a little of the respect we show during the games after the game also? Flame on! |
|
Michael Proebsting, Photographer
|
Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 1:18 PM on 12.24.09 |
->> It's the Poinsettia Bowl. What the hell were they fighting for, who was going to get a $2 usage fee on an image?
What's next, a knife fight at the Chick-Fil-A Bowl or gun play at the Meineke Car Bowl? |
|
Jeff Stanton, Photographer
|
Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 2:37 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> Indeed, I am also disappointed at some of the antics of photographers and video people who cover these events. All racing to get the same shot as the next guy. What are you trying to prove? |
|
Robert Beck, Photographer
 |
Carlsbad | CA | USA | Posted: 3:48 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> That is what makes the Masters such a great event to shoot. Nobody is allowed inside the ropes and nobody is allowed on the greens. No still photographers, no TV. And every year the coverage is beyond outstanding proving that events CAN be covered from the sidelines.It also affords the folks who paid for tickets the view they rightly deserve.....One of the athletes, not a bunch of wild eyed camera toters, line draggers and sound managers. |
|
Will Lester, Photographer
|
Ontario | CA | USA | Posted: 4:06 PM on 12.24.09 |
->> I was at this game last night, which is WAY down on the list of bowl games this year. And there were at least a handful of photographers which did not need to be there. One was actually more concerned that his picture needed to be posted on Facebook, WTF!!! Some of this people have no professionalism (cause there not) at all and act like children along with thinking they have some entitlement to be there cause they forked out 10K on gear.
Jeff and Michael, your so right!!
Glad I missed that cluster f@#*!!!! |
|
Matthew Sauk, Photographer
|
Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 4:07 PM on 12.24.09 |
->> That is one thing I HATE seeing at football games. When there is a story line between players or coaches, at the end of the game you have a mob of reporters jamming their way trying to get a photo of a handshake! I mean give me a break.
Does anyone really care? I know I could care less to see a photo of someone shaking someone's hand.
I know most hate belicheat but that guy always seems to have 20 reporters in a 5 foot square area trying to get a shot after the game of him shaking someones hand, that has to get annoying at times. Especially if they are within inches of you. |
|
Tom Knier, Photographer
|
Lancaster | PA | USA | Posted: 5:43 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> Matthew's right. Seriously, how many times is the coach handshake shot REALLY necessary? And every time, there's a mad dash out there to get it. Why? I can't think of any time in the past 5 years (except one particular Orange Bowl game) where I've gone out of my way to get it, and then actually used it... |
|
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
|
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:48 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> Poinsettia Bowl? Hmmmmmm, I never even heard of it. Wow...just WOW! |
|
Alan Look, Photographer
|
Bloomington/Normal | IL | United States | Posted: 5:50 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> I keep waiting for the video. |
|
Nick Morris, Photographer
|
San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 6:26 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> C'mon Will... I paid way more than $10k for my gear. LOL |
|
Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
|
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 6:46 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> unfortunately, human beings are among the most competitive creatures on God's earth. I have seen this in sports, photography and life in general. We will kill each other (literally) for the scraps at the bottom and what will eventually be "last place." |
|
Nic Coury, Photographer
|
Monterey | CA | | Posted: 6:58 PM on 12.24.09 |
->> Fortunately nobody starting swinging their 400 f/2.8's...
Yeah, it's a bummer what some people will do for photos. It's pretty raucous covering celebs at the AT&T Pebble Beach Pro Am. What's funny is that I don't often see it from really easy-going photogs or people that love being a photog.
I just step back and shoot that wild scene, it's part of the story after all. |
|
Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
|
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 7:28 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> People are rude or classless in their own ways. Some blame "the NCAA" for everything, rather than the bowl games which are, for the most part, all independently administered. Others may make dergoatory reference to "housewives" when they really just mean "crazy people who go berserk." |
|
Stanley Leary, Photographer
|
Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 9:34 PM on 12.24.09 |
->> The bowls as mentioned are not NCAA events.
Still we need to behave ourselves. |
|
Matthew Bush, Photographer
|
Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 10:07 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> Scrums are contagious. One shooter runs and then all the other shooter around them decide they should run also. Our Intern had a 70-200 2.8 broken when it was knocked to the ground during a high school game by the crush of soccer moms, event shooters and cheerleaders mobbing the field because people were following other people onto the field .... ILearned a lesson at NOLA about shooting the handshake. Bree's very rarely does anything intresting at midfield.... Well everyone and their mothers rushed to the 50 yard line including myself.... Bob Rosato from SI hung back by the tunnel and got an amazing shot of Bree's reacting to the fans as he left the dome..needless to say I shoot the tunnel now. |
|
Matthew Bush, Photographer
|
Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 10:09 PM on 12.24.09 |
| ->> *8rees* sorry autocorrect was on |
|
Eugene P. Tanner, Photographer, Photo Editor
 |
Honolulu | HI | USA | Posted: 7:14 PM on 12.25.09 |
| ->> The Hawaii Bowl wasn't much better... |
|
Keith Coward, Photographer
|
Lincolnton | NC | USA | Posted: 4:58 PM on 12.29.09 |
->> gun play at the Meineke Car Bowl....haha
At the Meineke Bowl on Saturday night, there were so many fans, alumni and KIDS on the sideline it was hard for the photographers to even get a place to shoot. What's up with that? |
|
Bryan Hulse, Photographer
|
Nashville | Tn | USA | Posted: 5:19 PM on 12.29.09 |
->> Same craziness at the Music City Bowl at the end of the game. Some photographers were yelling at the players to pose for them.
And, same thing during the 'Gatoraid' shot. I walked over to the Clemson bench with a minute to go and almost all the photographers on the field were hoovering for that 'Gatoraid over the coach' shot. As it happened, many jumping in front onto the actual field, which really pisses off the field security and makes them even more leery of photographers.
So, now these photographers acted like nuts, and about 50 have the same Gatoraid shot.
Hmmmmmmm...
Maybe I'm bitter because I don't have it?
I noticed on one of Robert's links he shot the Gatoraid shot from across the field. I think his is a much nicer shot, everyone had the chance to take it, and it was completely unobtrusive to the team and their moment. That's why Robert has been doing this for so long... |
|
Bryan Hulse, Photographer
|
Nashville | Tn | USA | Posted: 5:39 PM on 12.29.09 |
->> OK, let me clarify '...photographers were yelling at the players to pose for them'.
Politely asking a player to do a quick smile with a coach or other player after the game is one thing. Although, even though I am primarily a portrait photography, I don't consider this an appropriate time to be setting up shots.
But yelling things like, 'come on man, help me out here, go run down the field with the flag and look at the crowd', then getting pissed when they wouldn't comply is another.
It's the players moment. A little courtesy would certainly be in order IMHO. |
|
Ivan Pierre Aguirre, Student/Intern, Assistant
|
El Paso | TX | United States | Posted: 6:14 PM on 12.29.09 |
->> @ Will and Michael and to others.
Why does it matter that it is NOT a "big" bowl or that the bowl game is unrecognizable? Should photogs work any less??? I am reading in between the lines, but it is SEEMS that there is an "elitist" undertone in the statements. Not talking about the fiasco in question per se. What happens seems wrong. Students like me are always reading on this site that "shooting the pros is no big deal. Shooting HUGE events is no biggie. Access is everything." Well talking down a bowl is contradictory to that belief. Just saying, If the bowl is such "crap" then why even shoot it??
See below for answer.
And I wasn't there, but to give a different perspective for the sake of argument. Do you know if those photogs that went at it, were from the respected schools city? Hence working for the local paper. Do you know if they were asked by their editor not to come back to the office without THAT photo? NOT excusing the lack of post game etiquette, allegedly, again I wasn't there, but just saying we don't know all the circumstances.
A. The reason to cover "crap" bowls games (besides LOVING to shoot) is the same reason we try to capture the hands-out-mouth-open-hug shot, (agreed, I don't like that photo either) we do it because that's our job, that photo (even though it is worth a "$2 usage fee") of those two people may never be available to be captured again, so the photo may be historic and our editor(s) and more importantly the readers might want to see that moment.
Not saying should people should get in a fight over a shot..... just giving my trivial take.....
Heard this once. The more dangerous people aren't the ones doing the action, but those who do nothing to stop it.
So I have to ask, for those who were there, did ANY photogs step in and try to break it up??? Doing something could have prevented-- "players and staff (from) laughing their asses off (at them=photography industry=US)"-- Again, doing something could have been beneficial to ALL who have the pleasure/love of hiding behind a box and documenting WHATEVER comes up in the viewfinder. May that be Crap or Gold. |
|
Matthew Bush, Photographer
|
Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 11:50 PM on 12.29.09 |
| ->> Bryan - PJ's were asking players to pose ?? NO ETHICS = NOT COOL! |
|
Matthew Bush, Photographer
|
Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 12:07 AM on 12.30.09 |
| ->> Ivan- I believe most poster are talking about sideline conditions and the scrums after the games and not the actual bowl games. I do not think the guys are saying do not shoot that image... (sans Matthew and Tom but to each their own) I believe they are saying is that the community as a whole has decided that they MUST use a a lenses shorter than 17mm to get the shot. We have developed the attitude that we must run to the 50 and throw the hail-mary rig up and blast away at 8fps with our lenses dangerously close to the minimum focus distance. |
|
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
|
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:36 AM on 12.30.09 |
| ->> Bryan, please tell me the person who yelled 'come on man, help me out here, go run down the field with the flag and look at the crowd' was NOT a working, or hell out of work photojournalist. I mean that would so get you fired at any reputable publication. And Ivan, I see you're a student....well I would like to give you a little advice. Any editor who tells their photographer "not to come back to the office without THAT photo" should be reported to management. if an editor says that they are basically telling the shooter to pose a photo. demanding to se a photo that might not even happen is crap. so again I ask, were those folks working PJ's? and as far as fighting....again I find it very hard to believe photojournalists were involved in a fight. I've seen a lot of crap over the years, some serious yelling and the like but I can only rmember one time when blows were actually traded...and they were between a freelancer and a guy with a camera at a nascar event....over 25 years ago. the freelancer never worked for the photo agency (or at the track) ever again. I find it hard to belive pros would get that pissy over a simple photo. but part of the problem is all photographers get lumped together at these big events....probably a more tragic thing then the overcrowded sidelines..... |
|
Nick Morris, Photographer
|
San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 5:55 PM on 12.30.09 |
| ->> Hey just to clarify... the "little" guy who took the high road and walked away was a working PJ the big guy... never seen him before and be honest hope I don't again. Nobody threw punches it was some severe shoving between the front line that got carried away at the end. The big guy was the A**hole who tried to bowl his way to the middle of the scrum and really didn't seem to care who he knocked over. In all of my years I've never seen a pro act this way and I truly hope he was just some JA that found a credential in the parking lot. Still embarassing no matter who or why. I'm in the media room at the Holiday Bowl and my fingers are crossed! |
|
Daniel Putz, Photographer
|
Owings Mills | MD | USA | Posted: 7:34 PM on 12.30.09 |
->> ->> This an age old problem, whether it's football, basketball, news, features...the need to stick a wide angle into someone's face at about 4 inches is a learned trait that I hope will some day go away.
Bert, it's why I invested in a 400 and 2x TC.
;) |
|
William Guerro, Photographer
|
Galloway | NJ | USA | Posted: 8:44 PM on 12.30.09 |
| ->> How many of the Photog's were using a Canon Rebel with a 70-200 on a Monopod???? |
|
Jody Gomez, Photographer
|
Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 3:01 AM on 01.03.10 |
->> Wow - I'm glad I left the Poinsettia Bowl during the fourth quarter. I am too little to jump into the middle of the scrum, so I've learned to stand back with longer glass or wait by the tunnel - much better pics in my opinion - and a lot safer for both me and my gear.
The only problems I've ever had on any sidelines have been with video guys - I won't say the station, but let's just say it wasn't ESPN.
The still shooters I've been around have, for the most part, been respectful and kind to me - even the few times I have ventured into the scrum. The rare times I've been hit have been on accident, and the person who bumped into me apologized. Maybe it's because I'm a girl, or maybe I've just been lucky, but I choose to believe it's because I always try to be kind and respectful to others so it comes back around. Perhaps if we all tried this we'd have better experiences.
Cheers. |
|
Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
|
New York | NY | USA | Posted: 5:24 AM on 01.03.10 |
->> Jody-you have been lucky
this happens in all aspects of photography.
I was shooting a press conference with David Beckham a few years ago and h e was sitting at a table. Some still shooters went 2 inches from his face, ruining the shot for EVERYONE including video, and then things got so out of hand they rushed him out of the room.
I personally things like this make the "photographer" look like an insecure idiot. |
|
Philip Bowen, Photographer
|
Kampala | UG | Uganda | Posted: 5:56 AM on 01.03.10 |
->> http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/01/03/sports/03sugar1.html
Here's an image to add to the discussion. Wide angle shot of Urban Meyer getting Gatoraded at the Sugar Bowl. I have to admit it's a pretty cool image - puts you right there (as an editor, would you choose this shot or the same moment captured from across the field?) - but it's the kind of shot that probably doesn't happen without some excellent luck/preparation or a scrum. Given the comments here, I'd be interested to see what the scene was like around the photographer/s. Any one there?
-Phil |
|
Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Washington | DC | US | Posted: 11:24 PM on 01.03.10 |
->> Phillip...the problem is that the shot is then ruined for almost every other photographer.
Check out Robert Beck's leading shot and his "caption":
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=535
The Urban Meyer shot *is* cool
dbr |
|
Mike Brice, Photographer
|
Ogden | UT | USA | Posted: 11:27 PM on 01.03.10 |
->> The sad thing is that at least one of those photographers Beck is talking about is a member here.
So much for standards. |
|
Delane B. Rouse, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Washington | DC | US | Posted: 11:28 PM on 01.03.10 |
| ->> Oooops...it's Philip (Phil). Sorry for the misspelling. |
|
Matthew Bush, Photographer
|
Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 1:05 AM on 01.04.10 |
| ->> Dave Martin got a GREAT shot ! He is a good guy and I am more than willing to bet there were atleast 4 or 5 more aggressive younger shooters getting in the way more than he was.I did not shoot the Sugar Bowl because we did not have the manpower to cover the Cotton Bowl and the Sugar bowl along with covering the city so I may be gravely mistaken. Derick shot the game so maybe he can chime in and let us know but as far as Martin goes he is nothing but professional when I have been at events where he was the AP shooter and his stuff is always spot on. It does suck about the Rose Bowl stuff. Did field security do anything after the fact ? |
|
Philip Bowen, Photographer
|
Kampala | UG | Uganda | Posted: 3:57 AM on 01.04.10 |
->> Yikes. Thanks to Delane for pointing out the link and to Robert for posting it.
That's kind of what I was expecting to see. |
|
Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
|
Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 4:51 AM on 01.04.10 |
->> I'm mirroring my comments on the following thread here because this thread is a little more on topic. http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=35034
Mike Brice responding to Andrew Weber--
Andrew,
>>I saw you out on the field during the Gatorade dump at the OSU game - how did that shot turn out - or was it just a sea of orange?
Also, how did you get a pass to be on the field during the game?">>
Andrew responding to Mike-
Mike,
I was shooting the game for a client. I will also be shooing the National Championship as well.">>>
Mike Brice--->> Must be a powerful client that allowed you to go onto the field with time remaining in the game to try and get a shot of the gatorade dump.
I am sure the networks and other photographers didn't mind.>>>
Mark J. Terrill--->> Mike,
Excellent point. I was one of the photographers that got screwed out of a really nice Gatorade shot by Andrew and two other photographers running out there with 45 seconds left to go in the game. Normally, it's just one of those things that happens and you suck it up. In this case Rose Bowl officials had a meeting and specifically told everyone that no one goes on to the field until time runs out and if they did they would have their credential pulled for the BCS. We'll see if they keep their word on that. My only consolation is that Andrew was chimping as the Gatorade came out and didn't get in front of the coach in time. Near as I can tell Andrew got nothing, but screwed a lot of people in the process. Maybe that's even worse.
People forget that when photographers pull crap like this, those of us that got screwed remember it for a long time and payback is a bitch. More importantly is that this sort of behavior causes rules and restrictions to tighten for all of us and makes our jobs that much more difficult.
BTW, just to stay sort of on topic. I have three D3 cameras and each have about 130,000 over a two year period. At least six of those frames had Andrew in them. (-:
Thomas E. Witte--And in fairness, Andrew didn't block any shot worth squat anyway (assuming he was the one in the grey t-shirt which it looks like is him). The guy in the black blocked the best shot from anyone down range. Go to youtube and watch the clips.
Mark J. Terrill--
Thomas,
Fairness?! Really?! It's not for you or anyone else to decide what that shot was worth and do you really think that's what he was thinking when he ran out there? Any shot is better than no shot. Do you think he was trying to be fair by blocking a hundred other photographers who were following the rules? The only reason he wasn't right next to the other photographer in black is because he was asleep at the wheel when the Gatorade came out.
I don't need to watch it on Youtube. I was there and I have it in High Def. He completely blocked everyone who was shooting from directly across the field.
It's really simple. Follow the rules and stay the hell off the field so everyone has a chance to get a shot. Now that's fair.
Mark J. Terrill--
>> Thomas,
Do you think Andrew was trying to be "fair" to Robert Beck from Sports Illustrated? Perhaps you'd like to tell Robert that his shot "wasn't worth squat." http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=535 |
|
Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 6:02 AM on 01.04.10 |
->> Mark-
You missed my point by so many effin miles it's ridiculous. There are two things being discussed here. Photogs on the field (your argument, which I agree with) and where the shot was (my argument).
By "shot" I mean "the best angle", which 97 times out of 100 is in front shooting in to the lee of his head with the face all cinched up, which was from the left. Not a lot of publications I know run bath photos shot from greater than 90 degrees. I catch that you don't want to go to youtube, but you linked Beck's page and didn't look closely at the photo... The players already blocked the angle on the coach, because, as I already said once, the SHOT was from the far left. If you were on the right, you were out of position for it clean view or not. (Mind you this off the cuff analysis is based on one photo picked deliberately to illustrate three photographers running out in front of the angle. In said photo, the players doing the dumping are already blocking Tressel. If there are photos earlier (shot from the right) in the sequence where you can totally see the coach but there is a photog obstructing the meat of the photo, then I'll recant my statements.)
You also were not shooting from directly across the field. If you were, you to would be guilty of being in the player bench where you don't belong. You should have been outside the 30's. If you were outside the 30's, then you know that the head coach is going to be facing the play, know he's going in the drink and ergo, be in ready willing and able.
Am I saying either of these three were in the right? No, of course not. Never did. I especially didn't condone it. My point to that was simply:
If you're going to blame anyone for blocking the shot (the best angle) you need to sodomize the guy in the black.
Now I have to post this in the other thread as well. No cross posting on SS please. |
|
David Harpe, Photographer
|
Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 6:59 AM on 01.04.10 |
| ->> Curious - has anyone ever heard of a credential actually being pulled for this? I always hear of threats but never aftermath. |
|
T.J. Hamilton, Photographer
|
Grand Rapids | MI | USA | Posted: 7:30 AM on 01.04.10 |
| ->> All I can say is anyone watching the TV said, 'look at that idiot photog, he's in the way of a great moment.' |
|
Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
|
Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 8:21 AM on 01.04.10 |
->> Thomas,
I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter one bit whether he was the one that blocked the best angle. No one knew where that would be until it happened and he didn't give a crap anyway. You make it sound like Andrew was being careful not to block "the best angle." Andrew did his best to get where the other photographer was but blew it.
Also, the players doing the dumping might be more important to Sports Illustrated than the coach. At least Beck would have had a choice.
So to follow your logic. If Andrew shoots at me and misses, but another guy shoots at me and hits me, then I shouldn't be mad at Andrew, right?
However, to be clear I blame all three of them equally. The fact that only one of them was in the perfect position to block the best shot is way beside the point. |
|
Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
|
Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 8:36 AM on 01.04.10 |
| ->> Oh. And to add insult to injury Andrew has lifted one of my photos the coach getting dumped on (the one and only frame I got before being blocked) on his Facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/aweberphoto Unbelievable! I guess he's really proud to be in my shot. Should I be honored Thomas or file a lawsuit. Which is most fair? |
|
G.J. McCarthy, Photographer
|
Dallas | TX | Lower 48 | Posted: 9:31 AM on 01.04.10 |
->> Well, Mark, I see on Andrew's Facebook profile (thanks for posting, by the way) that he's " ... working on trying to find Ms. Right."
Perhaps he thought she was inside that cooler of Gatorade?
- gerry - |
|
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
|
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:18 AM on 01.04.10 |
->> I'm going to have to side with mark on this. There is no excuse or logic to these arguments condoning running on the field and blocking other people working the same situation. It's pretty funny the difference in the Final Four and these football games. If you even thought about running out on the floor at the end of the Final Four that would probably be the LAST game you ever were credentialed to. Maybe that's what should happen here. You break the rules, you don't get a credential. And I really don't buy the whole "best angle" argument at all. So just because there was "no angle" a "bad angle" or no photo at all we can condone that behavior. Yikes!
that is truly scary. |
|
Matthew Sauk, Photographer
|
Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 10:29 AM on 01.04.10 |
->> I just don't understand why someone would break the rules that were set forth before the game?
That is what would upset me. |
|
Anantachai Brown, Photographer
|
Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 12:51 PM on 01.04.10 |
| ->> I also agree with Mark. Same type of BS happened to me during the North vs. South game in Mobile, but it was from a game winning touchdown. A guy ran out to the middle of the endzone, thus blocking the celebration for me and 10 other photogs on the sidelines. Needles to say, we didn't have nice things to say to this guy. |
|
Rick Rickman, Photographer
|
Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 1:47 PM on 01.04.10 |
->> I've said this before and at risk of being the broken record.
The will never be a shortage of ignorance in the world. Photographers complain endlessly about the restrictions that are placed on them by event organizers and yet they continue to do selfishly stupid and moronic things that end up placing more restrictions on the process and this industry.
The biggest issue is always someone who doesn't have the technical skill to effectively focus a longer lens with confidence or, ones who don't really have any kind of self awareness and respect for their peers and think by shooting one picture their career will be made forever who create these kinds of issues.
Stupidity, Selfishness, Insecurity, and Desperation are way too prevalent in this business these days. Photographers really need to remember that this is a very small community populated by many very talented individuals with long memories. Alienating one's peers and stepping on toes needlessly is not the most intelligent of moves.
We also haven't been all that great at self policing our industry and to that end, I'd really like to thank Mark Terrill for taking the intiative of pointing out the names of a couple individuals related to this event. That kind of self policing needs to be more prevalent. I think that would help elimenate some of the mindless and selfish behavior we see too often. |
|
Nick Morris, Photographer
|
San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 3:42 PM on 01.04.10 |
| ->> I wish I had snapped a few frames of the fiasco at Poinsettia and identified the moron who started it. It's funny during a game we all show so much respect for each other, looking over your shoulder before setting up to make sure your not blocking someone else, setting up only where there is room. Then the two minute ticker, it seems with every second that ticks off the clock a bit of morals and manners goes with it. Not saying everyone here. There are some true professionals that keep their cool. But it is funny to watch some photogs slowly inch their way closer and closer and others see it and react inching closer and closer until one bolts and that causes a stampede. Where have I seen that before... oh yeah Animal Channel. I agree with the self policing here. If we don't call these guys out now and do something then we're all destine to be shooting from the bleachers. If you see it rap the guy/girl on the back and let them know. If they don't comply and turn into a DI** then we call them out here and pass their name on to everyone so the next time we can all let them know before the 2 minute ticker. Hell if I do something wrong I expect to get called out, I apologize and make sure I never do it again. I'm not perfect but I sure as hell don't have the lack of moral fiber to just screw everyone in my industry for a shot that prolly won't run anyway. This has been a pretty interesting post. |
|
Louis Lopez, Photographer
|
Fontana | CA | USA | Posted: 4:55 PM on 01.04.10 |
->> I know and I think if everyone looks closely you all know who the guy in the black is... Has a flash on his camera, those distinctive white knee pads... Very Professional guy, well respected in our business. I surely think he was supposed to be there.
I saw all three of these guys as the seconds ticked off as I positioned myelf behind the OSU bench area seeing if I could get a shot from behind as our other photographer was covering from the other sideline. I saw them moving in and the thought enetered my mind that maybey I should get in there, and then I thought nope gonna be hell and end up blocking everyone else.
I remembered the meeting and I figured that the guy in black had to have special permission as he is arguably one of the top and highly respected sports photographers in the world and by his body language,(not hiding or sneaking) is supposed to be there. The other two I was sure had no business being there as they were definitely sneaking around. The guy on the right was at the Pointsettia Bowl and did the same thing. There was no announcement or agreement to not do it so not much to be said there.
The rules should apply to everyone, and those that don't follow them should be outed and some action taken from the media credential people. There are some allowances to be made if a photographer has permission and it is part of his duties to be there. I don't know the name of the two guys in white and grey but I know they are both Presswire shooters. They both need to take a few moments and see how badly they screwed everyone. If they have any issues with what I said, or pointing them out they can come discuss it with me anytime.
I am pretty well known, not hard to find at all. |
|
Matthew Bush, Photographer
|
Hattiesburg | MS | USA | Posted: 5:22 PM on 01.04.10 |
| ->> Playing devils advocate but the guy in the black does not look like he is on the field. If you look close he is right on the line shooting parallel. I might be wrong. The other two are at the freaking hash mark..... |
|
Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 5:30 PM on 01.04.10 |
->> Mark-
Obviously the last time I'm making a funny comment. You're getting closer to my point, but twisting the words in to a square knot. Go here:
http://images.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=gatorade%20dump%20ph...
I'm not going to bicker further on this publicly since we're on two different wavelengths. It's making us both look like children and apparently one of us isn't going to go "Oh, okay yea, I see your point but..." You can have the last word on it if you want or we can continue this privately.
Now then, if you're going to be this serious about my comment, I'll stop joking around and be serious about yours.
As for lifting your photo, personally (you know my history of being a copyright advocate) I find that more heinous than stepping on the field. Pulling a photo without asking the photographer permission is something that the rest of the world does, not us. We're _supposed_ to know better than that. If you see him at a game again anytime soon, grab his camera or laptop and say you're just using it for personal use.
"Should I be honored Thomas or file a lawsuit. Which is most fair?"
My first thought was; "I wonder how AP files their images at the Copyright Office"? Monthly? Daily? By photographer? The whole take? How do they keep track of it all?
My second thought was; technically you (personally) can not file a lawsuit, leaving your only available option of those two to be honored, which is the wrong reaction to have in a situation like this. During one of my lawsuits against EPA, a colleague actually asked my why I wasn't honored they "stole" my photo and that I should try to leverage it in to getting more work... There wasn't a single fleeting moment that I felt even remotely flattered about the whole thing.
Filing a suit against him is like trying to heat up your cocoa with a Tsar Bomba. Expensive hyperoverkill. The offense of the usage ranks even lower than if it were used on a blog since it's not publicly viewable. However they are still worth a cease and desist letter to start anteing up the damages in the cause of willful infringment. In the past when I had a widespread infringement, the person doing the redistribution was the one we really targeted, then since all the paperwork and research was already done and paid for, the bloggers (and by virtue, the facebookers) were tagged on to the file and sent cease and desist orders to minimize expenses and maximize the scope.
Most attorneys are going to tell you it's a disproportionate return on investment to just target one blogger because that $250,000 in damages limit is most applicable when the image is being redistributed for financial gain. Personal uses like that are more in the ball park of what the usage rate would have been plus a multiplier. So why pay an attorney $450 an hour when the settlement is only worth $300?
The reason I said you couldn't file a lawsuit is because as a staffer for AP, you're images are owned by AP and you can't file on their behalf. The contract I have with AP however allows either party to file on their own behalf. Harken back to the AP/Mannie Garcia/Shepard Fairey conundrum. There was no contract in place stating the terms of who owns the rights, so AP assumed that like a majority of the rest of it's contracts, they owned the rights to the photos and hence were justified in filing any suits. So for everyone out there currently looking over a staff or freelance contract, try to word in duality. Anyway, back to point, you can bring this to the attention of AP legal and they can send the cease and desist letter on their own behalf. Unfortunately, after the recent layoffs the legal department (I'm not even sure who's left now) is running a little light and a lot of the "little things" are so far on the back burner that they're behind the stove. For example I've been waiting two months for a contract amendment but was told they wouldn't be able to get to it until after the Superbowl. C&D though should be boilerplate so who knows. If you get all of Andrew's contact information and hand deliver it to them, maybe they can spit one out.
As you can see, the legal process is full of caveats and nuances. The only real reward is the personal satisfaction of scaring the person. Although, we always seem ready to pick up pitchforks out other photographers, so the other option is to keep mentioning this publicly to embarrass them enough to take the photo down. Frontier justice in the internet generation. |
|
This thread has reached the maximum number of posts
If you would like to continue it, please create a new thread.
[ Create new thread? ]
Return to --> Message Board Main Index
|
