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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Spelling and grammer
Andrew Brosig, Photographer
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Crowley | TX | United States | Posted: 10:27 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> I just finished reading one of the stories in the latest newsletter. I'm not going to say which one, because that isn't the point. And I'm sorry to say this, but I was frankly disturbed by the writing, specifically misspellings and incorrectly used words.
Some of you might want to slam me for this. Well, go ahead. But keep in mind, we are photo-journalists, the operative term being journalists. And this isn't a new problem. I've noticed we seem to be getting sloppy in our use of language and correct spelling.
For crying out loud, folks. There isn't a word processing program that doesn't contain a spell check. Even the posting window I'm typing into right now is checking my spelling as I type. I'm not claiming to be perfect. I know the posting window has a spell check because it's caught several mistyped words already.
It isn't that difficult to use spell check or just look at what we write. A string of misspelled or incorrectly used words reflects poorly on us as journalists. And for someone to post what could have been an excellent story on a journalism Web site, but in my opinion was weakened because it was filled with grammatical and spelling errors, is just wrong.
Please, make the effort. And I'm not talking just about folks who are new to the profession. Seasoned pros can benefit from my advice as well, I would hope. As journalists, our primary tool is language, whether it's the language of light and shadow or the words we choose for stories and captions. Misspelling and incorrectly used language does nothing more than weaken the message we're trying to get out.
Let the attacks begin. |
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Joseph Zimmerman, Photographer
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Howard | Pa | USA | Posted: 10:36 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> I srotgnly arege wtih tihs. |
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Joe Morahan, Photographer
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Denver | Co | USA | Posted: 10:38 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are in; the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a ttoal mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? |
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Gregory McKie, Photographer
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Seattle, WA and Portland | OR | US | Posted: 10:40 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> +1 |
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Heston Quan, Photographer
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Orange County | CA | | Posted: 10:48 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> Grammer? |
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Mike Carlson, Photographer
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Bayonet Point | FL | USA | Posted: 10:52 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> PLEASE tell me you misspelled grammar to get our attention...? |
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Andrew Brosig, Photographer
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Crowley | TX | United States | Posted: 11:08 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> Thank you for illustrating my point. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:16 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> Andrew, while I do agree with the spirit of your post, keep in mind that this site is not made up of just photo journalist nor is it a journalism specific site. There are a wide range of photographers here spanning the industry and the professional "standards" that you hold to may be less important to other member's area of expertise. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 11:27 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> "Thank you for illustrating my point."
no offense andrew, but what exactly IS your point? the title of your spelling thread is spelled wrong. that mistake can't be deliberate. it wouldn't strengthen your point. actually, it's quite ridiculous. |
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Dirk Weaver, Photographer, Assistant
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 11:28 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> Joe, impressive! But I'd have to agree with Andrew in that there's a great deal of poorly written captions, stories and articles out there and many don't seem to care provided that they get their names in print. |
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Joshua Brown, Photographer
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Waynesville | NC | USA | Posted: 11:36 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> ill add on that i hate when ppl type in texting formats and not use punctuation or capitalization were not ee cummings here so can we all pls just type the way we were taught to write
Also, the word is probably, not prolly. I think that may drive me nuts more than anything else.
Now, time for bed. |
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Andrew Brosig, Photographer
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Crowley | TX | United States | Posted: 11:36 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> Mike - Why can't it be deliberate? Shock value is one of the most powerful methods of getting people's attention. My point was how glaring one simple error can be and how, as you said, it reflects on the tenor of the posting.
Jeff - Regardless of focus of the site, journalist or not, I disagree. The "standard" I was expressing is the correct use of language, be it spelling or grammar. It's something we were all supposed to learn in elementary school. |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Piqua | OH | USA | Posted: 12:46 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> Jeff,
I submit that any photographer who does not care about spelling and grammar should not be in the business...period.
Professionalism in any field requires the ability to do many things well, among them being able to communicate in a professional manner.
As for those whose standards "may be less important to other member's area of expertise", they are doomed to failure, or mediocrity, which in my mind is the same thing.
I frequently see posts explaining that this site is to share information and for others to learn. One of the things that can be learned is that the key to being successful is to be able to sell yourself and your work. Who would you rather hire: a photographer who shoots great images and communicates as a professional or a person who may take acceptable photos but whose communication skills could be embarrassing, at best? |
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Jordan Murph, Photographer, Assistant
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Carlsbad & Honolulu | CA/HI | USA | Posted: 12:50 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> The Sports Shooter Newsletter is made up of articles and pieces contributed by people taking time away from their very hectic schedules to write stories, stories which take a lot of thought and time to produce, to share with everyone without compensation in order to give something back. Why rip on something that is free to you? Why rip on someone's grammar who is just trying to share something for free with you? How about grammar/spell checking your member page before publicly chastising others?
For crying out loud, folks. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 1:21 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> Mike,
I'm not saying that spelling and grammar aren't important, but rather that not everyone on this site is a working photo journalist or comes from a true journalism background.
Do you honestly believe that someone who's earning a living as a fine art photographer should not be in business because they might not write post on a message board following the AP Style Book ?
I'm sure there are some very successful wedding photographers out there who couldn't write a caption that would get past the AP picture desk editor to save their lives. However I'm sure they are still amazing wedding photographers and earning a good living (probably better than many of us these days! lol)
Heck, doesn't even have to be a wedding photographer, it could be a event photographer who specialized in youth sports tournaments.
Does that guy really need to be held to the same journalistic standards as a staffer at a daily news publication ?
Just because you work with a camera doesn't mean you have to also be a journalist.
Why Mike must the choices in your example only be a photographer who shoots great images and communicates as a professional or a person who may take acceptable photos but whose communication skills could be embarrassing, at best?
Does an English degree go hand in hand with being a master photographer ?
Can you not have a great vision behind the lens but be a poor writer ?
Can a portrait photographer not have amazing interpersonal skills in networking and dealing with clients but not be able to spell well ?
I've seen plenty of amazing photographers in my life and I don't think any of them have ever become famous because of how well they spelled and their perfect grammar.
If Ansel Adams or Edward Weston didn't know the difference between "there" and "their" would it make their work any less inspirational ? |
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Michael McNamara, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Phoenix | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:24 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> Thank you, Jordan.
Because the newsletter is written by people who volunteer their time, and is managed by someone who volunteers entirely too much of his own time, you could offer to proofread the articles. That would be very nice of you. |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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Boise | ID | US | Posted: 2:18 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> OMG! I pay $25 a year and have to deal with speling issues.
Yeah, it is important to be professional and look professional, and it's true that grammar/syntax errors aren't professional. They just make you look bad to those who have a good handle on english.
The best way to fix this would be to proofread future editions. Is that what you're offering? |
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Dave Breen, Photographer
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Somerset | PA | USA | Posted: 10:54 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> I'll join the staff of volunteer proofreaders. I completely understand Andrew's point -- it's like nails on a blackboard (or a fork across a plate, if you prefer) to read some articles, and especially some posts.
I'm serious. |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 11:18 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> Sometimes the when we notice something like this we can learn to use this to our advantage.
A good writer will most likely pick up more gigs and most likely better paying gigs for their expertise beyond the photograph.
Those who can somehow keep comments as positive instead of negative will in my opinion get even more jobs.
I think offering ones time to edit the newsletter before it goes out might be the best use of one's time verses pointing out to the greater community poor writing skills.
As we all know a perfectly exposed image and perfect composition can be a very boring image. However, we also know one can miss the exposure and not have the best composition, but be a very compelling image.
Many of the great writers break many rules and in the process are better communicators. I am not saying this is the case here, but I do think strict rules can lead to boring communication. |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 11:48 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> Andrew, by chance did the newsletter promise a million bucks from Nigeria?
Just kidding. But seriously, Jeff Mills, I don't care who reads this site, we are professionals, and people who respect our work expect a level of professionalism, and if we slack, well, then who is to blame that photojournalists are more expendable on staffs than the reporters? We are reporters who should be held to the same standards, and as a society, we should exhibit the top tier of communicative ability as we can.
I thought about that a lot last night on my way to a friends house to watch "The Warriors" on Blu-Ray. I was listening to NPR and a discussion about the slow death of longhand writing. I was such a better speller when I wrote everything out. It was nothing to write a 12 page research paper or story, or just an eight page letter to a friend.
When was the last time anyone here has done that? I think I can say not since 1994 for me.
Sad.
Hmmm...sorry for the tangent. |
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Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Central Jersey | NJ | USA | Posted: 11:49 AM on 12.02.09 |
->> Volunteering to proofread copy is a bad business practice all around, as there are lots of hardworking, experienced proofreaders and copy editors out there–some with families, mortgages, car payments, and even pet goldfish–who are trying to make a living at this grammatical stuff.
And there you all go: so willing to completely and totally undermining their right to exist and flourish as proofreaders and just be that GWSC* giving away your proofreading talents for free.
~~~~~~~
*Guy with Spell-check |
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Alan Stewart, Photographer
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Corydon | IN | USA | Posted: 12:05 PM on 12.02.09 |
| ->> Hey, I just said my pictures are worth a thousand words. I didn't say they'd be spelled correctly. |
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Dave Breen, Photographer
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Somerset | PA | USA | Posted: 12:13 PM on 12.02.09 |
| ->> I apologize for the offer to proofread. I was sincere, but I don't want to start something that could bring the wrath of International Brotherhood of Spellers or the Amalgamated Grammarians Union (much less PETA) down upon our humble site. If anyone has a viable solution to this quandary, please let me know. (Hey, I just learned how to spell "quandary".) |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 12:49 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> Dave,
Don't apologize for your offer.
I'm sure Jack was just being funny (I marked his post as such) and hope you took as such.
Your offer to volunteer to proof read is a noble one and would be valued by the SS admin I bet. If I had that skill, you'd bet I'd volunteer it if I thought it help the community and did not take much of my time (actually, I volunteer to do way too much stuff every year).
Really, sometimes doing something good for the many does outweigh the good for the one. |
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 1:16 PM on 12.02.09 |
| ->> well if this dang message board has spelling check I would not have spelling mistakes! |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 1:41 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> A couple comments:
First, I think there's a fundamental misconception among several posters that Sportsshooter is made up entirely of journalists. That's a faulty assumption, IMO. Just my personal example, most of my work is as an event shooter. Yes, my spelling and grammar could be better. But unlike a journalist, spelling and grammar is not part of what pays my bills. A built in spell check would help. But it's not worth it to cut/paste from a word document to post here in the forums. If I were submitting copy as was the initial thrust of this discussion then it would be proof-read and spell checked. I do that for all the business documents I author.
Second, if we want to focus the discussion solely on journalists - to me it's not the lack of spelling or grammar that concerns me on posts here in the forums - it's the complete lack of research before people want to publish their opinions. To me the integrity that comes from that research is more important than spelling. And yet, I don't see many of the seasoned journalists here commenting about that behavior. Especially popular are attacks against security and law enforcement. It seems perfectly acceptable to assign guilt without attempts to get the full story. But, because many journalists here have bad experiences with those parties it's perfectly tolerated behavior. Just look at the threads about the chopper, or the video clips about the NFL game where the person either fell or was pushed down or back when security forces were alleged to have fired at photographers at an offshore wedding.
Really, if people here are concerned with what is written here and how it reflects upon the individual and profession of journalism, shouldn't research and journalistic integrity vs. publishing opinions based on incomplete evidence be right up there with the proper use of "there" vs. "their"? |
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Joshua Brown, Photographer
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Waynesville | NC | USA | Posted: 2:02 PM on 12.02.09 |
| ->> Just as an FYI, the browser Firefox has a spell checker, for those who want a spell check for their internet postings. Might not help with the grammar, but it's a start. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 2:59 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> "Huh?
This should be used when someone's point was not made because it was written in a confusing way. By marking a post with this, you are essentially asking the poster to try explaining their position again - this time more clearly.
"
So - since HUH indicates I didn't make my point clearly I'll try to re-phrase. For those that marked my post 'huh' - was it my first point or second point that you are confused about? I'll be glad to clarify whichever one you were not able to understand because it was poorly written.
Thanks! |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 3:00 PM on 12.02.09 |
| ->> At the paper I work at I was hired to be a photographer, not a writer. At the card company I shoot for I was hired to be a photographer not a writer. At the arena I shoot for well you get the drift. I do not expect perfect writing on the articles as this is not a paying occupation for these guys. What I do not want to see is bitching about what is on the whole pretty good content in the monthly issue. |
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Andrew Brosig, Photographer
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Crowley | TX | United States | Posted: 3:02 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> John - You make valid points. Accuracy is one of the hallmarks of journalism. To extend that idea, the correct usage of "their" vs. "there" is part and parcel with accuracy, in my mind. To put it bluntly, one is right and one is wrong, depending on the usage.
I would further state correct use of the language should be at least as important as accuracy in reporting/posting/etc. I guess I wasn't focusing solely on journalists but on members of the site in general. Whether someone is a professional journalist or not, to me it would be a matter of personal pride — or personal embarrassment — to put my name to something which was full or errors that was going to be read by others, journalist or not.
I think there's been some good discussion in this thread. Let's keep it going. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 3:45 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> Andrew,
Interesting take. So, in your opinion, a published piece that has incorrect grammar (their vs. there) but has a well researched both-sides-to-the-story without author's opinion inserted is just as bad for journalism as a journalist that takes information from one side of the story and publishes their personal opinion based on that one side but they correctly use "there vs. their"?
I get what you're saying. But as a consumer of media publications I would much rather have unbiased integrity in my media professionals than proper spelling. Both would be great. But, given the choice as a consumer I'd rather have unbiased and factual integrity.
Or let me put it this way. I don't care if Bill O'Reilly or Adrianna Huffington use correct grammar and spelling - they're poor sources of credibility for me.
And you're not the first person to raise the spelling / grammar issue on this forum. My point was - I can recall spelling/grammar being called out but not poor factual credibility when publishing an opinion. As a consumer of what journalists produce I guess I'm a bit dismayed that spelling is worth calling out but the other is not.
I can tell you, as a consumer, the inability to be unbiased and the inability to get both sides of the story before writing an opinion has done more to turn me off from reading the local paper (among other issues) than grammar and spelling.
I guess I'm just looking at this as a business analyst - and a consumer. And, as such, my personal opinion is WHAT people are writing is of poor quality and damages their credibility - regardless of whether or not spelling/grammar is correct. Solve the bigger problem FIRST and my opinion is the industry will be better off.
Still - I'm sure others here will disagree with my opinion. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 4:07 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> As a consumer or as a buyer of professional services, I evaluate vendors based upon their entire package. I look at not only their core services, but at the way they present themselves and their business. Spelling counts because it's a good indicator of how conscientious they are about their work. If a photographer doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're" or "its" and "it's." How can I trust them to spell my name correctly on my wedding album, let alone know how to properly tone an image for sRGB output?
In this Googleized world, everything that you put online is there for the world to see forever. Spelling and grammar always (always!) count.
BTW, I had to make three corrections in this post and look-up the spelling of one word.
--Mark |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 4:10 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> And still I screwed-up a sentence re-write.
--Mark |
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Alan Look, Photographer
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Bloomington/Normal | IL | United States | Posted: 5:11 PM on 12.02.09 |
| ->> Binged is so much easier to spell than Googleized. Maybe Chromed too. |
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Daniel Malmberg, Photographer
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Jim Owens, Photographer
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Cincinnati | OH | usa | Posted: 5:30 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> There's a guy that lives near me that has a home made sign on his lawn every spring that says
"Tax PREPARTION Here"
Yup, that's who I want to prepare MY taxes. Gee, I wonder if he'll visit me while I'm in jail. |
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Sherrlyn Borkgren, Photographer
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Eugene | OR | USA | Posted: 5:30 PM on 12.02.09 |
| ->> Sign up for the "English for Photographers" workshop! Immerse yourself two days and learn all you ever needed to know about ad writing, spelling and convincing the public why they should pick you! You'll be a changed photographer. Seats are filling up so don't wait. (just kidding) |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 5:47 PM on 12.02.09 |
| ->> I's can rite, speel, and punciate with grammer goodly; |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 6:45 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> Joshua B wrote
"Also, the word is probably, not prolly. I think that may drive me nuts more than anything else."
Amen. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 9:30 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> mark-
what word did you have to look up? |
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Larry W. Smith, Photographer
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Valley Center (Wichita) | KS | USA | Posted: 11:14 PM on 12.02.09 |
->> Everyone that knows me knows my english is very bad and I can't spell, so I'm used to it even from my wife.
Now every paper and wire has a desk that usually proof reads stories so when someone writes a story for SS it just might have some errors since I'm sure there is not a second person that is proof reading their story for them, and that usually goes for captions as well.
I did a quick look at some of the sites of posters on this thread and I was not looking for incorrect spelling just doing a quick look and I only saw 4 posts with correct captioning styles, Who, What, When, and Where. I really don't care either way I think this site is for all of us to have a place to showcase some of our work to other photographers, friends, family and just the public. If we was sending it to a client or potential client we would make sure to do it better most times. Now if a potential client sees it then they can decide if a misspelled word is a reason not to call someone. But I would much rather know what is going on in a picture and where it happened and when it happened than noticing that they misspelled a word but left me wondering what the heck is going on in the frame.
But with all the very insane things people post on their Facebook sites and not caring about who sees that shouldn't be worried about a misspelled word on their SS page. Most Facebook sites can do more harm to an individual than any misspelling but people don't think twice about posting personal information on those sites.
My buddy Jordan was very correct on his post, I really don't think getting everything exactly correct in these articles is the most important thing on their minds it is a lot to do in our busy lives and for them to take the time to even write these articles for us we should be grateful.
Yes getting things spelled correctly is very important, using correct language is very important as photographers but you know in my opinion getting a good picture is even more important as a photographer. So if your getting great captions written under bad pictures maybe you should rethink your career and become a writer not a photographer, and if your getting both then my hat is off to you because your ahead of me in the game.
L |
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Andrew Brosig, Photographer
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Crowley | TX | United States | Posted: 9:22 AM on 12.03.09 |
->> I wasn't putting down the author of the article I referenced at the beginning of this thread. I am, in fact, very thankful for the people who contribute to this and other sites. Their stories — including the one that started this — are generally interesting and even helpful as I move forward in my career.
But, as both a writer and photographer, I still contend the simplest tool we have is language. To me, it's an example of what's going on in the world around us that good enough seems to be good enough. I would think people who contribute — professional journalist or not — would want to put their best foot forward. To me, that begins with making sure what we're putting out there for the world to see is the best product we can produce.
The fact that it's out there, that people are contributing, shouldn't be the be all and end all. Yes, it's important and I praise the people who contribute for taking the time and effort. But, one would think, a quick re-read before hitting the "post" button wouldn't hurt, either.
For the journalists, how many times have you been asked the question, "Doesn't anybody proofread your paper?" To me, that's one of the most embarrassing questions I'm asked on an almost daily basis. Sure, it takes time to proof. The group I'm with now publishes six papers. Not one page goes to press without being proofed by at least two people. And mistakes still get through. It's the nature of the beast because we're all human.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for an error-free publication. I just think that should include items posted on sites such as this one. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 2:11 PM on 12.03.09 |
->> Mike, "conscientious."
--Mark |
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Robert Beck, Photographer
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Carlsbad | CA | USA | Posted: 2:53 PM on 12.03.09 |
| ->> How you communicate plays an important role in how you present yourself. Present accordingly. |
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