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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Charges possible against Seattle TV Chopper crew
Matthew Bush, Photographer
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Daniel Celvi, Photographer
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Schaumburg | IL | United States | Posted: 2:34 AM on 11.30.09 |
| ->> Do they say anywhere how the helicopter interfered? The officer speaking just said it interfered, 3 or 4 times, and that more people might get hurt. He never really says how, or even makes hints at it. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 9:38 AM on 11.30.09 |
| ->> How do these people make it this far in law enforcement? |
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Matthew Sauk, Photographer
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Sandy | UT | United States | Posted: 9:56 AM on 11.30.09 |
| ->> They pass a test and peed into a cup |
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Dan Megna, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 11:09 AM on 11.30.09 |
->> I'm constantly amazed at the tact some of you take when it's reported the media is denied access to crime scenes. I agree, at times, there seem to be legitimate grounds for a gripe. But in this instance, jumping on the "cops are jerks" bandwagon is a bit premature.
I spent 18 years flying helicopters for a big police department in California. I've seen first hand, media copters repeatedly disregard requests by the cops to move from an area or not live feed images from scene. It has absolutely nothing to do with granting the media access, but instead, it's about compromising officer and citizen safety.
Many times, it seems the media believes their "right" to tell a story is more important that the cops personal safety and their duty to apprehend a violent offender. In this instance, the cops were trying to track down a guy or guys who just killed four cops. And remember, the cops undoubtedly NEEDED the media to get the word out to the public to aid in tracking the bad guy(s) down. But what the cops DON'T NEED, is the media broadcasting live pictures of every move the cops make as they search for a gunman or as a swat team surrounds a house.
Bad guys watch TV too. All too often, as those cops that some of you love to hate so much, are risking their lives to pluck a violent crook from your neighborhoods, some media helicopter is filming every move they make and putting it on live TV for everyone to watch, INCLUDING the bad guy. Can ya see where that might be a problem?
Do cops sometimes infringe of the media? YUP... Unfortunately, it does happen. But, on occasion, does the media, in an effort to get an exclusive scoop, sometimes compromise the safety of cops? I'd bet, in this instance, this was the case. And because of the soapbox the media enjoy, the media waves the flag of how they mean old cops didn't give them what they thought they should have. All the while, the cops have to quietly suck it up, and go about their day, protecting those who support, as well as hate them. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 11:26 AM on 11.30.09 |
->> Dan please justify moving the NON-OFFENDING NON-FLYING media back as punishment for the TV helicopter. That was in my eyes the abuse of power. If the DA thinks that (s)he has a chance in hell of getting charges to stick then GO AFTER THE TV CREW and let the rest of the media do their job. I'm sure that the location of the heli-pad isn't a secret. Grow a pair and send a car over there and take the pilot into custody if you think you have a chargeable offense.
Trying to get the rest of the reporters to strong-arm the TV station is nothing short of extortion. I'd love to see it played the other way round and have the media outlets refuse to broadcast or print photos/sketches of someone the cops were looking for unless the chief called the next town over and got that department to give up something in return.
The guy was a blackmailing jerk. |
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Rob Bye, Photographer
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Winnipeg | MB | Canada | Posted: 11:34 AM on 11.30.09 |
->> Dan, I appreciated hearing your unique perspective on this.
I think this is just a case of raw emotions clouding someone's judgment... |
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Tony Sirgedas, Photographer
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Pierce County | WA | USA | Posted: 2:56 PM on 11.30.09 |
->> Lets see, the comment on the news from the reporter in the helicopter went something like this "we've been asked to move back, but we have these images from our great super lens to see what's going on"... this as one of the swat teams was moving in on a tip.
Three news helicopters, two law enforcement helicopters, two state patrol fixed wing air craft and one AirLift medical helicopter on standby next to an air force base makes for some crowded skies. |
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Myung Chun, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 3:24 PM on 11.30.09 |
->> In the So Cal / LA area, some, if not all of the tv stations don't show tactical movements by going super-wide or cutting to some other footage. Officer safety was cited as one of the concerns for that arrangement. That doesn't seem to have affected the quality of coverage.
I hope things work out between the law enforcement and the Seattle tv station. |
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Mike Ullery, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Piqua | OH | USA | Posted: 8:45 PM on 11.30.09 |
->> Some further idea on what happened in the heat of the moment.
Four brother officers had just been gunned down. I would guess that emotions were running a little high among the officers in the area...and quite understandably so.
If you have never been in the position of attempting to apprehend a suspect when a fellow-police officer has just been shot, you have no idea... |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 9:42 PM on 11.30.09 |
| ->> In our area the TV news crews also work with Police/SWAT to minimize problems with tactical operations. Usually works out fine. My bet at this point would be miscommunication at some level - either between the TV station and police, or maybe even internally at the station. Hopefully they can work it out. No TV crew gets up in the morning hoping they can help get a cop shot by a bad guy. |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 9:54 PM on 11.30.09 |
->> yeah, but sometimes law enforcement uses emotionally charged situations to act, well, emotionally charged.
I had to photograph a fatal car accident in NC in 1997 that found a deputy shoving my camera in my face and knocking me down and I was way behind the police tape. Come to find out that the dead family was her niece and the niece's husband and kids. Sorry it happened, but it doesn't give you a "punch" card either. if the law can't shield me from emotionally unleashing amidst a tragedy, then officers especially so. |
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Jeff Frings, Photographer
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Milwaukee | WI | USA | Posted: 8:01 AM on 12.01.09 |
->> "I spent 18 years flying helicopters for a big police department in California. I've seen first hand, media copters repeatedly disregard requests by the cops to move from an area or not live feed images from scene. It has absolutely nothing to do with granting the media access, but instead, it's about compromising officer and citizen safety."
I spent over 10 years flying in media helicopters and I’ve never disregarded requests by the cops to move, nor have I seen other media helicopters disregard requests to move back. We’ve also never fed live images over the air of any tactical situations that would give away police positions or endanger officer safety.
If the police were really that concerned about the helicopter endangering safety they should have called the FAA and asked for a TFR. I don’t know any pilot who would knowingly violate a TFR and I’ve never heard of the FAA denying the police a TFR. That would have solved their problem, and then they wouldn’t have to strong arm the rest of the media. |
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Dan Megna, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 1:26 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> At the risk of igniting an exchange of caustic messages, I do think a response to Eric and Jeff’s remarks might shed some light on how the cops operate, particularly in a dynamic and dangerous situation like we saw this past week in Washington. I don’t expect what I say to necessarily alter the way some folks feel about the police. But it’s how it is and probably isn’t gonna change. And let me say, I absolutely know that on occasion cops do WAY over step their bounds in dealing with the media. I just don’t see it here.
Eric was concerned that the cops ‘punished the non-offending, non-flying media’ for the actions of the alleged offending media helicopter. Well, lets first remind ourselves what the situation was. There were four people, cops, shot dead in cold blood for no apparent reason. Within a short time, the cops believe they have their killer identified and holed up in a structure. Every cop on that scene is jacked. They are mad and scared to death knowing the killer is so unpredictable. And through it all, it was very likely one man was solely responsible for the overall scene.
Now, we have the media. They want to and deserve to report the story. And, lets remind ourselves how, by the nature of the business, it can be quite competitive. Similar to the cops, the media is jacked up as well. They are excited and hoping to get something that’ll be unique and please the news director.
This is what’s gonna piss some of you off; Like it or not, in the big scheme of things, at that particular time, the media’s wants and needs and perceived self importance, is really all the way at the bottom of that scene commander’s ‘to deal with’ list. Now, annoy him repeatedly with unnecessary distractions, like a low flying helicopter or the concern of a live video feed, or reporters who may walk into the gunman’s sights, and eventually he’s gonna say enough is enough. Like it or not, any cop worth his salt can easily justify why he moved airborne and ground media back a distance. In clear conscious, if he can articulate his belief of threat to his cops, the public and yes, even the media, he’s king. Like it or not. Those cops are responsible for the media safety too. You might not like it, but cops know they would be crucified if a reporter inside a perimeter took a bullet from a bad guy.
Let me paint you a picture you might better understand... You’re on tight deadline, frantically editing and uploading photos for a insistent editor. Now, your kids repeatedly come barging into your office asking for a popsicle, crackers, the TV remote... Is it a big deal that they want this stuff? Heck no. But at the moment you just don’t have time to deal with, what you feel, are their insignificant needs. But to them, it’s WAY important. Unfortunately for them, however, you’re busy and need to stay on task. So how do you react? You likely push them back out the door with a threat for them to shut up and you’ll get to their needs when you can.
While some media might really want to believe they were singled out that night last week, I really doubt that was the case. In reality, it’s likely a tiny element of the media created enough of a distraction where a very real concern arose for someone’s safety.
Jeff - I’m not aware of the Milwaukee media market but here in Southern California, it’s highly competitive. When a big story breaks, you can have a dozen helicopters in the airspace. Personally, I had eleven one night on a crazy pursuit. But my local media helicopters were never the problem. We always had a great relationship and even personal friendships. But it was usually aircraft from out of the area, like L.A., who were sent down with an order from the news director to, ‘Make it worth it for me to have sent you down there. Bring me something good.’ That helicopter is costing that media outlet 5, 6, $700.00 per hour or more and it’s an hour flight each way plus time on scene. That few minutes of on scene video could cost a station over $2000.00. They better bring something back. It’s those folks who usually push the envelope and cause problems with the cops. One bad apple...
As for a TFR, or a Temporary Flight Restriction. In the incident we’re discussing here, it simply wasn’t appropriate. According to the FAA, ‘A TFR defines an area restricted to air travel due to hazardous conditions, a special event or a general warning for the entire FAA airspace.’ I don’t believe in this situation these conditions were met. Plus, it takes quite a bit of time, as long as a day, to get a TFR in place and media only needs to file a flight plan to enter a TFR. That process takes only minutes. But I’ve been involved in the TFR process many times for large wildfires. It does not happen quickly.
I know I’ve rambled here but I do have a perspective from both sides. I do respect the job of the media and the cops and have seen and understand the problems that can result, for both the media and the cops. I recall a swat incident here in San Diego when a gunman broke out of a perimeter and opened fire toward the crowd of on lookers and media staged, in what the cops thought, was a safe distance. The video footage is chilling. I also remember the media outcry after that incident asking why the cops let the media and public remain so close. Sometimes ya just can’t win....
I hope some of this makes sense. |
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David Welker, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Springfield | MO | USA | Posted: 1:34 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> Dan,
You said some great things. Your examples are the same I would have used. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 2:33 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> Dan I won't rehash the email I sent you. I do want to make one point again though. If the safety of the ground forces was this officer's concern then he failed them miserably. Moving the reporters on the ground would not and could not have ANY bearing on the chopper. He wasted time with a zero chance solution. Deal with the chopper and the people controlling the chopper. Anything else is wasted effort and time and keeps the problem in place.
To the 3 people (maybe more?) that I offended, I really am sorry. If you took offense because you are somehow connected to the LEO community, you shouldn't have. I fully understand that this person had just walked into pressure cooker. But that's when he is expected to NOT be human. To NOT let emotion rule the situation. That is when he is expected to deal with situations in a purely tactical fashion to get results. His solution to threaten the reporters on the ground couldn't have any impact on the problem and thus was a tactical dud.
Again I wasn't looking to offend anyone, I just think that this officer failed in his duties. |
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Aaron Suozzi, Photographer
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 2:39 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> Dan
In my years working for the newspapers, I have never once met a cop who was "concerned" with the safety of the media. They use and abuse their power to control the situation time and time again. I am not saying it isn't an emotionally charged situation, but if you expect the media to be professional they why shouldn't the media expect law enforcement to be professional ... or am I asking too much? |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 3:27 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> " I have never once met a cop who was "concerned" with the safety of the media."
Wow! I really hope that isn't true. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 3:59 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> "They use and abuse their power to control the situation time and time again."
Isn't that the job of an editor?
But seriously - the media does this too, so do politicians - so do business executives. This is not to say the police were right - but I think it's a bit myopic to suggest law enforcement abuse their power but media - TV, newspapers, etc. don't use their power to influence.
Remember - just like their are bad cops their are people like Geraldo Revera that represent media. And, of course, it's not like editorial media influences things - why else is there endorsements of politicians except to use the power of the publication to influence elections?
Again, not taking sides in this case but let's not suggest law enforcement is on a lower moral ground than any other person/body with power to wield. Power corrupts - period. |
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Aaron Suozzi, Photographer
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Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 4:25 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> Jeff and John, both of you have made comments about the first part of my posting, yet ignored the second part of my posting which states:
"if you expect the media to be professional then why shouldn't the media expect law enforcement to be professional"
I am not saying the media doesn't have agendas (part of the reason why I left the newspaper industry), I am saying in my years working for newspapers this is what I encountered.
What have the two of you encountered in your situations working for the media and dealing with the police especially at a crime scenes or other emotionally charged situations? |
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Dan Megna, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 4:30 PM on 12.01.09 |
->> Very eloquent, John.... You summed it up VERY nicely.
Arron, it's unfortunate that your experiences with cops is what you say. Thankfully, my experiences have been quite different.
Eric, I've not taken offense to anything you've said. You are entitled to your opinion and I respect yours. I just wanted to put another perspective out there. I've been on both sides in good and bad cop / media situations. I'm just saying it MAY not be entirely what it seems. But I do realize that perceptions, correct or incorrect, are very real to those who hold them, and it is sometimes difficult to listen to or accept the opposing view. And that's ok... |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 7:42 PM on 12.01.09 |
| ->> Aaron, I didn't ignore it. I agree with the thought; however the first part grabbed my attention more. |
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