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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Baltimore Ravens photographer or videographer (Monday night)
David Dermer, Photographer
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Cortland | Oh | 44410 | Posted: 11:52 AM on 11.18.09 |
->> I have no idea of your a memeber of this site or if you will even read this, but maybe some one will read this and talk to you. You had on all blue windbreaker and I believe the black NFL vest.
But I have been to every Browns game the past 5 years and have say front row, and have NEVER seen a photographer get into it yelling and screming with fans. You seriously gave drunk fans the finger and felt you had to act all tough. I have never seen anything like that before at any sport or for that matter anywhere.
I have taken many photos at many venues and been heckled by fans and I have never even gave them the time of day, BECAUSE IM TRYING TO BE A PROFESSIONAL.
I dont care how tough you think you are but trying to start a fight with a fan in the stands who has drank more than his fair share for a monday night (not myself the guys next to me)
But I can say this as a fan and someone who has been on the sidelines as a coach and a photographer, there is a reason you are either on the sidelines or behind the camera, its because you can do your job on a high level and you can do things no one else can do. But if your going to try to start fights with drunk fans than please by a ticket and sit in the stands and try to start your fight that way.
Just act like a professional and keep doing your job.
Im honestly sorry if this offends anyone that is not my pourpose but I was honestly offended as a photographer and a football fan when this happened on monday night. |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 12:02 PM on 11.18.09 |
| ->> I'm not sure what is more obscene, this guys behavior or the fact you have been paying to attend every Cleveland Browns game for the last five years. |
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David Dermer, Photographer
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Cortland | Oh | 44410 | Posted: 12:18 PM on 11.18.09 |
->> haha I have tried in every way to get a photo pass to the games, but as a freelancer I really cant. But I would rather take photos of them being terrible than sit in the stands and watch them being terrible.
But I am 21 these bad Browns are really the only team I know, so I cant really talk much trash about anyone. |
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Wesley Hitt, Photographer
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Fayetteville | AR | USA | Posted: 9:48 PM on 11.18.09 |
| ->> Michael, that made me laugh. I needed a good laugh. Thank you. |
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Ethan Magoc, Student/Intern
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Erie | PA | United States | Posted: 11:26 PM on 11.18.09 |
->> The best option to rant directly to the perceived offending party is a quick Google search:
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/Media/Photo_Landing.aspx
It appears that neither are SS members, but I'm sure someone here who shoots the Ravens frequently knows them or the person you speak of. Regardless of the crime, if you followed the message boards during the summer you probably saw that it's typically not a great idea to call out other photographers on the message boards.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=33807
I'm a young shooter as well, but we have to learn quickly that the industry is indeed still a very small world. |
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Thomas E. Witte, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Cincinnati | OH | USA | Posted: 1:14 AM on 11.19.09 |
| ->> I was there - about 15 yards away - and can assure you, the fans deserved it. The photog didn't start anything and just like every other fight, you only saw the second hit. I assume the "gentleman" next to you was the guy with the three foot long bone who kept waving it like he was going to brain the photog... It didn't start with him. It started with the guys just down the row a little bit. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:21 AM on 11.19.09 |
->> David, what do you hope to accomplish from this post ?
Why not do some research, find the offending party, and discuss the situation with them directly, allowing them to give their side of the story ?
Do you know the entire situation or anything about that photographer personally ?
Seems rather rash to call out someone publicly for a lack of professionalism when you don't know anything about them, even their name. They could very well be one of the nicest folks you'll come across on the sidelines for all you know.
Speaking of professionalism, your ranting post is full of grammatical and spelling errors which really doesn't do anything to help paint yourself in the best light. It frankly sound like you were drunk yourself when you posted it. The fact that you then admit how badly you'd like to get credentialed and have tried everything as you'd rather shoot them than watch them really doesn't strengthen your stance either as it just sounds like sour grapes then.
If you value professionalism so much, then practice it in your own work and don't worry about the other guy. If this guy offended you so badly as a photographer and football fan, then make sure you set a better example in how you conduct yourself. Things will work themselves out just fine on their own and if this individual does engage in this behavior on a regular basis, and without warrant, they probably won't have a career long. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 1:37 PM on 11.19.09 |
->> Jeff,
Your post intrigued me. Conceptually, what you wrote I completely agree with. It's good advice. But, here's what intrigues me. If the offensive party is a photographer it's not OK to discuss the offensive action. But, take the thread about the security guard at the football game. It's OK for someone to make a post bashing him for bad behavior without getting his side of the story? Or when someone started a thread calling out a company that wasn't paying invoices without getting their side of the story?
In other words, photographers shouldn't get special privileges IMO. There are two sides to every story. So, if the policy here should be - don't call people out publicly without getting both sides of the story - that policy should hold true whether the 'accused' is a securit guard or a photographer. Otherwise it's a bit hypocritical of us to say - never call each other out publicly but it's OK to call non-photogs out publicly.
I would make the argument this thread is exactly the same as the security guard thread - calling someone out publicly based on assumed guilt without any research. |
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Drew Hallowell, Photographer
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Bryn Mawr | PA | USA | Posted: 1:49 PM on 11.19.09 |
| ->> Team shooters (video or still) wear red or green vests, not black. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 1:53 PM on 11.19.09 |
->> John,
I think it was in fact pointed out by many in the security guard post that some people did in fact jump to conclusions and the camera man appears to have gone down from his own cable being too tight. I don't think that is a double standard, rather another example of someone calling out a person publicly without having all the information.
Additionally, even when one does have all the information, it may or may not be a good idea to make a public posting about it. In reference to the post regarding the company that hadn't paid, I think that was a valid thing to post publicly because the individuals in that thread tried every other recourse to get paid with no resolution and were posting a warning to other photographers. If several other members have also had similar problems with this company, I'd certainly want to know about it before I waste my time and efforts on them.
Basically I think it comes down to if your posting to try to benefit your fellow photographers or to try to embarrass or put down someone. We've all seen the threads where someone thinks they deserve to be shooting instead of someone else because they feel that person isn't skilled, or do like their behavior etc. A post like that is no benefit for the community here at SS.
As a rule of thumb, if its between you and one other person or one organization, keep it to private email. If its a situation that can have a direct effect upon many of our members, then perhaps post it, but only after trying to resolve it privately first.
Thats not to suggest you can't ask for advice from members in some situations with payment disputes, but practice tact and leave the names out of it. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 2:26 PM on 11.19.09 |
| ->> I don't completely disagree with some of the comments but this points to something in our society that keeps me up at night sometimes and that is the lack of personal accountability. If the guy behaved that poorly then he should be chastised for his actions. Moreover, it does impact all of us as shooters since it reflects poorly on the entire shooting community. This is particularly so in the case of such a visible situation as shooting Monday night football on national TV. The method of calling him out may still be in question but the fact that he got called out is something that should happen more often. I tell my kids this all the time...be responsible for your actions and deal with the consequences if you make poor choices. Regardless of who started it, his job was to be professional and if the fans were that much of an issue, I'd suggest talking to security over screaming and flipping them off. |
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David Dermer, Photographer
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Cortland | Oh | 44410 | Posted: 3:07 PM on 11.19.09 |
->> I have been to every game for 5 years, what makes me mad about it is just that if they are in the stands they are there to yell scream drink and try to get under peoples skin. Its a guy with a dog bone on his head, who really cares what he is yelling?
I just say this because I have been there so long and to many more games as a fan and have never seen anything like that, that is why I am upset about it. Not because I want to feel all high and mighty. Isn't it better to be known for your work than what comes out of your mouth?
If I'm wrong I'm wrong and I'm sorry, I truly am. But I know that when you put enough beer in people and put a bad football team on the field people are going to yell some terrible things.
I'm a football coach in the fall and its the reason why I don't get drunk at games. because I don't know who is seeing me and know knows me. I don't want to be apart of something stupid and lose something I love.
A 50 dollar ticket and 5 beers does not give any person a good reason to yell scream and carry on like a moron, but because your on the field who cares what the guy in the dog bone hat is yelling.
If you want to come slap me in the face, Ill be at the next home game Section 118 Row A seat 20. Ill be more than happy to talk to anyone if you have good or bad things to say.
Again, I'm sorry if I have made anyone mad, but I would expect any of you to get on here and blast me if I was acting like that to any one of you or any fan.
I know I'm not the best speller by any means, or not even the best photographer so you don't have to point that out. |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 3:49 PM on 11.19.09 |
->> You've obviously never been to a Oakland Raiders home game and sat in the end zone seats. These fans make what happened in Cleveland look like a Sunday school class compared to the vile, unspeakable foulness that's spewed from the stands in Oakland toward anyone and everyone, especially the refs.
Chill, dude and welcome to the NFL. |
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David Dermer, Photographer
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Cortland | Oh | 44410 | Posted: 4:16 PM on 11.19.09 |
| ->> I have never been to Oakland. been to Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Cincinnati. Only as a fan tho. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 6:04 PM on 11.19.09 |
->> you obviously were not at my house the night we had that massive rager back in 1988 to hear the profanity that was sent my way when the parents came home WAY early. makes all those fans look like they were at an elton john show.
**yep, confirming that this is both "huh?" AND "off-topic". |
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D. Ross Cameron, Photographer
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Oakland | CA | USA | Posted: 7:37 PM on 11.21.09 |
->> Phil, you say that about the guys in the Black Hole like it would be *wrong* or something...
;-)
You really haven't lived until you've had a Raiders fan spit on you because you happened to be wearing the same colors as the visting team.
Now, to the original post: Mr. Dermer, I'm begging you -- on my knees, I am BEGGING you -- please consult a dictionary before you post here. I understand that you recognize your shortcomings as a speller, nevertheless... I'm not the best mathematician hereabouts, but that doesn't mean I would post a message here in which I stated that "2 x 2 = the square root of a hippopotamus' butt," and not expect to be reamed for it.
Websterically yours,
DRC |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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102 Yards From The Beach | CT | | Posted: 8:16 PM on 11.21.09 |
->> 2003 Super Bowl in San Diego. I was assigned to the end-zone overhead position...right in front of a few rows of Raiders fans.
My credential lanyard...New England Patriots (the team I covered just about ever Sunday for a few years)...
...you may remember the Raiders really didn't do to well against he Bucs.
At some point a Raiders fan spotted my credential lanyard and started yelling that "your team f%$ked us out of the Super Bowl last year!" (in fact they did, and I shot the Raiders losing to the Pats the previous year in a blizzard at the last NFL game to be played at Foxboro Stadium).
Yup...it was a fun 2nd half of the game with wads of gum flying my way...real class act fans.
I don't miss shooting the playoffs in New England, way to cold at every game! |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 12:04 PM on 11.22.09 |
->> Nothing like wearing the "other" teams colors or logo on your vest either.
Ohio State used to do their single game credential vest with the name of the school they were playing, so when it was Michigan, you'd have a vest that said Michigan is huge letters front and back.
Oh the joys of having to go out into the main concourse area (no restrooms on the field level) during halftime and have to face 105,000 well intoxicated Buckeye fans.
I was always half tempted to grab a sharpie and cross out Michigan and perhaps add a short paragraph about how I actually am an OSU alum, and also shoot for the University and as such the only Michigan frames I was looking to get are ones of Henne getting sacked by Hawk and Carpenter. Would of saved me a few ice cubes chucked at my head lol
On a related note, DRC is right, spelling and grammar are rather important on these forums. I make my share of typo's as well, we all do, however of anywhere you might post online, this is the place to take a little extra time and care. Reason why is that a lot of clients will read over your posting history when hiring you. When I've looked for a few people for assignments I needed to fill before, I not only check out their member page, but also see what it list for some of their post. I want to get an idea of what someone is like, and if they know what they are talking about, if they seem a jerk etc.
David, I know your no doubt just writing in a casual manner, perhaps as you'd text friends, but if your post are like this
"I have never been to Oakland. been to Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Cincinnati. Only as a fan tho."
It really doesn't look that great. Capitalization, complete sentences, avoiding slag/text terms like "tho". It just helps you put your best foot forward to a potential client if you avoid it. Last thing you want is to lose an assignment because someone had reservations about if you'd be able to write acceptable captions. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 12:41 PM on 11.22.09 |
->> "David, I know your no doubt"
It never fails...... |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 5:05 PM on 11.22.09 |
->> Jeff, is that incorrect ? If so thank you for pointing it out. Lessons learned on both grammar and that your perhaps something of a smart ass ?
Pissing contest aside, I think the point behind what I was trying to say is still valid and I hope that its useful information for David.
Everyone makes typo's and mistakes now and then, both on this forum, and sometimes in a caption. I'll be the first to admit I do. As I said though, its a good idea to try to present yourself in the best possible light. That means trying to use complete sentences and good grammar and avoiding slang terms and text message words like "cuz" instead of "because". My ex g/f was a 7th grade teacher and you wouldn't believe the number of students these days who are in the habit of using text/IM words and phrases in their formal writing these days.
Anyways, I was simply trying to help a newer SS member with some advice I thought could benefit him as he's trying to get into this industry. What was your motivation behind your post other than trying to embarrass me ? |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 6:07 PM on 11.22.09 |
| ->> Jeff, I'm not trying to start a p' war. It was just an observation. It seems like whenever someone calls out another on spelling or grammar......this happens. |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 12:39 AM on 11.24.09 |
->> Just as a point of reference, it isn't a good idea to wear a Mizzou sweatshirt when you go to Nebraska, or Oklahoma, or Iowa State or, well, any school where you are visitor if you are shooting. Nebraska especially. Not good. You want harassment from the stands, try that. It doesn't go so well.
Still don't see the point of this whole thread, but we are talking about a Cleveland fan, so we have to give him so latitude. |
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