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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
student paper rights grab
JC Pinheiro, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Ottawa | ON | Canada | Posted: 1:42 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> I started working with my universities news paper this year, but due to recent clarification (see below) of the papers position on image ownership/copyright I am no longer contributing to it. If I had not asked I would not have been aware. Working for free and basically having nothing to show for it is pretty bad. Is this normal at other school papers? I am not sure this is entirely legal either, but then again I am not an expert on Canadian copyright laws.
"all content published in the (papers name) becomes property of the (papers name), and cannot be reproduced without express consent."
Through meeting with the editor I was told reproduced included everything from posting it in an online portfolio to a blog, and that the paper's constitution actually states that it extends to any content that is submitted, not just what is published. Hopefully this serves as a heads up to any other students shooting for their papers.
Cheers JC |
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Andrew Nelles, Photographer
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Chicago | Ill. | usa | Posted: 1:51 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> That is rather ridiculous for a school paper, not allowing a student to add contributed work to an online portfolio.
When I was in school, as paid staff on our school's paper, they had a rights hand over in the contract as well. However use for personal promotion, such as a online portfolio, blog, etc. was specifically allowed. The agreement was more than flexible as well, I was never denied permission on any request to sell images for use outside of our paper, or print sales, etc.
I'd go meet with them again and negotiate (if you have not already.) |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 2:08 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> This really isn't any different than the way a good number of publications operate. You shoot something as a staffer for a given paper, often using the papers equipment, and the paper has the rights to those images. Nothing new there really but yes, still something to be aware of if your just trying to get images printed as a contributor.
Has the school specifically said you can't use images or clips submitted for personal portfolio and similar usage ?
That would be a little odd if a school papers, who's purpose is to provide students experience, is expressly forbidding portfolio usage of those images or clips.
I obviously wouldn't expect them to allow secondary editorial usage for work done using the schools credential but personal promotion should be allowed and in a good program, encouraged. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 4:15 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> "all content published in the (papers name) becomes property of the (papers name), and cannot be reproduced without express consent."
Just because they say it's so, doesn't make it true. I don't think this would constitute a transfer of copyright in the US. The paper's constitution doesn't trump the law. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 4:32 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> I know that in Canada the entity commissioning the photos owns the (C) unless otherwise assigned. For example a person walking into a portrait studio or hiring a wedding photographer owns the (C) in the works being created unless they assign it back to the studio. At least that was my understanding the last time I spoke to a portrait shooter in Toronto so unlike here in the US where the (C) belongs to the creator of the works in Canada it works the other way round.
No matter what you really need to hear from others who are familiar with Canadian law. |
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Peter Huoppi, Photographer
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New London | CT | USA | Posted: 4:57 PM on 11.02.09 |
| ->> Maybe someone with more knowledge of intellectual property law could weigh in, but I thought it was fairly common for colleges and universities to own the work done by students and professors. |
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Luke Sharrett, Student/Intern
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Forest | VA | United States | Posted: 5:49 PM on 11.02.09 |
| ->> The student paper at Western Kentucky tried this a couple semesters ago, but my photo editor took a stand for us and crossed it out of the contract with a big sharpie. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 6:34 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> Luke, its worth noting that a student photo editor with a sharpie probably does not have the authority to amend a binding contract.
I was a photo editor when I was in school and certainly had no authority to represent the dept of journalism nor the business office of the school paper, marker or not.
If a sharpie was legally binding we'd be paying $400/hr for the use of one. |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 6:41 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> Everyone: Keep in Mind JC is in Canada, so laws may differ in copyright cases.
JC,
RAISE ALL HELL. Contact NPPA, ASMP, and every organization you can think of to protest this policy.
Also, I take it that the paper is not a mandatory part of coursework for you? |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 6:44 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> Is this a position, a policy or a contract?
I'm not seeing enough information here to figure out for myself whether or not you have put yourself into a situation where you are bound. Just because someone says it's so, doesn't make it so.
Also, I would ask if they publish any wire service content. I imagine those service providers may have a different view. |
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Luke Sharrett, Student/Intern
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Forest | VA | United States | Posted: 6:58 PM on 11.02.09 |
| ->> Jeff, no the sharpie wasn't legally binding, but he went before the editorial board and was successful in fighting to remove the provision from the contract. |
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JC Pinheiro, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Ottawa | ON | Canada | Posted: 7:43 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> Ok to clarify a few things
Mark > The quote was taken from an email from the editor in which she was clarifying the papers policy. - and I am not aware of any connection with a wire service.
Patrick> No, not course work. I am not studying photography here.
I was not accredited for the events through the paper, but through shooting for the company that is under contract with the university. They gave me permission to provide the paper with images for publication. So that would make me a contributor. I thought this was understood until I received an email a few days ago looking to change things. The editor requesting that some images be submitted to them and the rest to the company for exclusivity.
I never signed any contract with the paper, just contributed images on a weekly basis.
After looking on http://tinyurl.com/2awsyv it would appear their policy is not legal: it basically reads (correct me if I am wrong) that Canadian law stipulates that the client does not own the works unless they have paid, or you are an employee of the company. I assume to be an employee you have to be paid... |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 11:57 PM on 11.02.09 |
->> (Minor hijack)
Whether a photo editor's Sharpie creates a legally binding contract change is not a cut and dried issue. If lower level employees were not able to sign, amend or negotiate contracts, every corporate agreement would be personally signed by the CEO.
I just don't see Steve Jobs personally signing off on the office supplies at Apple.
--Mark |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 5:00 AM on 11.03.09 |
->> JC,
Just because someone writes something down somewhere using some official-sounding, lawyered-up language doesn't make it legal.
1.3 Sub. A (3.6) -
Whereas the author of this post maintains an interest in the sale, distribution and licensing of all editorial and commercial images taken, acquired or otherwise produced in North America, the copyright of all images transmitted to, or published on sportshooter.org, on or after 11/03/09 at 12:01 a.m. East Standard time, will hereby transfer to the undersigned. Said copyright ownership will transfer immediately upon transmission of the images and will remain the sole property of the undersigned for a period no less than 50 years for images produced in the United States and 75 years (unless otherwise noted) for images produced in Canada. Be it so ordered this 11th day of November on the year 2009."
Now, I've put it on paper so it must be true right? |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 5:17 AM on 11.03.09 |
->> I once went to work as a staffer for a daily newspaper (which I came to love) which asked me to sign a Noncompete Agreement. The agreement was filled with intimidating, lawyered-up language that said that (despite the fact that the paper had not paid for my college or paid my moving expenses or trained me in any way) that I couldn't eventually quit and go to work for ANY of the competing papers in the area (then they listed almost every paper in the State of Florida).
The contract sure did look official though, so before signing it I showed it to my lawyer. Well, he read it and actually laughed a few times in the process. He shook his head and said, "This is the United States of America, you can work anywhere you'd like. I don't care what they write on their little piece of paper here. Sign it, don't sign it; do whatever you'd like but this piece of paper is meaningless here in the State of Florida." |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 10:20 AM on 11.03.09 |
->> Brian,
We're not talking about weird, impossible situations. Were talking about a situation involving a simple contract clause where the person doing the modification can reasonably be taken to be acting as an agent for his employer.
--Mark |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 10:34 AM on 11.03.09 |
->> "Everyone: Keep in Mind JC is in Canada, so laws may differ in copyright cases.
JC,
RAISE ALL HELL. Contact NPPA, ASMP, and every organization you can think of to protest this policy."
ASMP = AMERICAN Society of Media Photographers
(at least NPPA has Canadian chapters/regions)
Best laugh I've had in a while... |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 10:47 AM on 11.03.09 |
| ->> Yea Mark, I totally agree with you. I wasn't referring to your post. I, too, believe that the photo editor with the marker likely has 100% authority to change the contract before it is signed. I wasn't commenting on what you said. I was referring to the original contract that JC was talking about. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 10:55 AM on 11.03.09 |
| ->> A ridiculous rights grab isn't legal just because it's written down on paper somewhere... that's all I was saying Mark. And yes I'd have zero hesitation signing a contract if a redaction making it acceptable was singed and initialed by someone in middle management or above. We're on the same page on that one. In fact, I was the one that marked your post "Informative" early this morning ;-) |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 1:27 PM on 11.03.09 |
->> I guess the question becomes are student employees in editor positions really representatives of a given paper though ?
If your a 19 year old kid in a journalist program and you get an "editor" position for a quarter, at a paper where all journalism students are required to work, is that the same thing as a formal salaried editor position at a normal newspaper ? Maybe that depends on a school by school basis. At mine, we had to have everything overseen and approved by faculty advisers and the business officer staff. A student photo editor didn't have the authority to "fire" people from the class, set newspaper policies or anything.
No disrespect to any student editors but it sounds like a bad idea to let them have 100% authority to change or otherwise amend polices as they see fit on the fly with a marker. Whats the point of having an editorial review board and the like if people can run free and wild making policy on the fly ?
But this really is all besides the point of this thread though. Only point that I was trying to make is that before signing any contract, make sure whomever your signing it with actually has acting authority to represent to organization. Student paper or otherwise.
Heck, maybe said editor does have that authority, if so good for him/her. But I know personally before I start providing images to an organization that had a contract that said they owned anything I submitted that I'd want more assurance than a sharpie marker crossing out a line of text.
If you don't understand a contract don't sign it before taking it to a party that does and have them look it over first. I think in a nutshell any organization that wouldn't feel comfortable with you allowing a legal representative to review it first is the type of organization you shouldn't be working for in the first. |
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Patrick Fallon, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Columbia | MO | USA | Posted: 1:30 PM on 11.03.09 |
->> Chuck - ASMP has members in Canada. If contacted, I bet they would have been able to help too. One could also contact the CAPIC:
http://www.capic.org/about.html |
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