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Interesting Thread. Opinions?
Steven Ickes, Photographer
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Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 1:53 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> A thread over in the Sports section of the Fred Miranda forums was recently started. Basically a young, enthusiastic photographer was rehashing his successes of the past year. Unfortunately his post included his admission to lying to get into venues, posing as a credentialed photographer, and giving his files away in order to gain access. Responses were predictable but with some opposing viewpoints as well.
I'm curious to get opinions/reactions from the members here, as professional photographers.
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Steven Ickes, Photographer
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 2:22 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> I kind of feel sorry for this guy. He's committed career suicide. |
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John Mecionis, Photographer
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Port Jefferson Station | NY | USA | Posted: 2:32 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> I loved his list of accomplishments. He left a big one off, getting paid. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 2:41 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> To whomever at Sportsshooter denied this guy membership 4 times... thank you. |
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Mitch Stringer, Photographer
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Baltimore | MD | USA | Posted: 2:59 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> It's really a very sad commentary of an aspiring but horribly misdirected young person. At the risk of sounding like an old fuddy duddy, kids and maybe society in general are looking for a quick fix and/or immediate gratification more than ever before. TV shows promote the brash, in your face TMZ type approach to life and media to an extent. While that works in some places, I have not seen that attitude bring long term sustainable success. Burning bridges and negatively inflaming people is not a good business plan to say the least. None of us know his role models. Maybe win or get what you want at all costs was encouraged if not rewarded. As a community, perhaps we can show him that we applaud his desire to excel in the field but also care enough to help set him and perhaps others on the proper course. The proper course is not so that we as a community can benefit. Photography can and will endure for ages to come. The challenges the industry faces will be met by talented people who rise to the challenge. The proper course is for the benefit of this young man in this or any field he ultimately pursues as a career. Hopefully he listens to these voices and makes a change in his approach. |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 3:01 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> That really is an interesting thread to read. It's interesting to me because I do sports shooting on the side. I've come to appreciate the idea of not giving away your photos for free. I certainly get that. But, it's still not black-and-white: a few weeks ago I was contacted by ESPN to do a shoot for them - not game action but something else. Even though I could have made a good paycheck (more than I make for the same amount of time in any other sports shooting I do) I turned them down because they wouldn't pay for usage - just an hourly. And, based upon all these discussions it was my belief accepting those terms would undermine the industry. Now, I'm in a favorable spot in this regard - I didn't NEED that money - but again, it's more money for 2 hours work than I've ever made for sports work. So, it would be tough for me to fault almost anyone for taking that offer.
Similarly, I'm as guilty as the next guy for buying gear at B&H because I save money over my local camera shop. I don't rant at B&H for ruining the camera industry because they sell for less.
So, my point is - sure giving away images for free is bad, but it gets a lot greyer after that.
As to him getting access and all that - I am a bit torn. I get when people choose to say his stuff isn't good enough - that's fair. But so much of the comments come across as - I had to 'put in my dues' so I'm upset with anyone that bypasses that process - in other words sour grapes.
I understand people posting about ethics and I agree to an extent - but in all honesty some of it comes across more as sour grapes - not that they lied but that they bypassed the painful process someone else had to go through. I really did like the comment about Chutzpa vs. unethical.
Bottom line - I think the guy worded his post poorly but I'm not so convinced some of the responses aren't overkill. And my opinion is, many of those responses from pros may not work in their favor - i.e. if you want to convince the army of people out there with cameras and ability to do things 'the right way' I'm not sure responses in that thread will do it. A reader of that thread could very well come away with - "what this guy did worked a bit for him - his one mistake was telling people about it - I just wont make that mistake". Like it or not, there's a PR battle to 'win over' the army of sports shooters out there to the pro way of thinking. I think a number of posts smack more of 'sour grapes' and fear and that's not a good way to convince people to come around to your way of thinking.
Please let the 'huh' clicks begin :) |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 3:11 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> I see a fifth, sixth, seventh....and so on in Mr.Korduner's future. |
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Steven Ickes, Photographer
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Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 3:19 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> I do want to make it clear that I didn't post the link here in order to "out" Mr. Korduner and get him a lifetime ban from Sports Shooter. I'm hoping that he was simply a victim of his own orgasmic enthusiasm and lack of experience. I'm equally hopeful that he may have learned a thing or two from his public lashing and grow into the role that he aspires to. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 3:26 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> John, I understand what you're trying to get across but once again the whole "many of those responses from pros may not work in their favor" comment again shows that there is a huge segment of society that don't understand the ethical ramifications that photojournalists live by. I won't use the term "he lied" to gain access but he did misrepresent himself. that's a huge no no in our (my) world. But as Jody said above, this guy probably just committed professional suicide. I wouldn't be surprised if the area he "works" his scams at will be banning him in a short period of time. Especially if some of the posters alert the various SID's to his shenanigans. |
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Steven Ickes, Photographer
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Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 3:39 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> Beyond the deliberate actions of deceit, I just don't get why he feels the need to taunt his fellow photographers, many of which are working professionals:
"...As for the pundits who suggest you should never give away your photos, I respectfully disagree, and I'm inclined to also respond with "where will you be watching the WVU-UConn game from next week?" Personally, I'll be on the sidelines because of relationships I built while giving my photos away to whoever would take them."
I keep wanting to think that his post reflects a young, enthusiastic photographer who is just eager and excited. But I really don't get the whole tone of the quote above. He did eventually chime in to state that his post had been mistated, misinterpreted, or misunderstood. But reading that quote again just doesn't convince me otherwise. |
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Luke Sharrett, Student/Intern
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Forest | VA | United States | Posted: 3:42 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> Am I seeing things, or do the watermarks on his images read "LSU Conn Man?"
Con man is right. And who lies their way into Sun Belt Conference football games? I can understand lying to get out of covering one, but lying to get in? The football is terrible! (half kidding!) |
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David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 3:46 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> A) I can't believe people have time to be on both boards.
B) This FM poster isn't a member here so: 1)WGAS? and 2)Why steer his train wreck thread onto our tracks. Similar Sportsshooter homespun threads are bad enough...
Besides I have more important things to do, like follow up on the balloon boy story! |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 3:49 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> The content was removed from his posting on Fred Miranda. Even sadder.
--Mark |
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Matt Kartozian, Photographer
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 4:15 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> Chuck,
I hear you - what I am trying to say is delivery matters. HOW you send a message goes a long way toward how that message is received. And by "you" I mean anyone trying to send a message - in this case people responding to that thread. Remember, in theory people are trying to convince those "outside the profession" to not take a wrong course - so any arguments to convince those people need to reflect the fact they are outside the business. |
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Doug Holleman, Photographer
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Temple | TX | USA | Posted: 8:49 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> "He's committed career suicide."
Without the advantage of reading the entire text (which was deleted), it sounds like he didn't have a career to sacrifice, so he didn't really have anything to lose...other than maybe some self-respect. Again, probably didn't have much to lose. |
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Nick Adams, Photographer
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Houston | TX | | Posted: 8:55 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> I see a future FML post... |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 9:04 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> his original post was blown out of context. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 10:00 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> Interesting..
The kid lies and then boasts that he lies to the entire world.
The kid is pretending to be a sports photographer. I don't go into FM much .. too many images posted that are mediocre that other mediocre photographers chime in how wonderful the images are. Photo critique version of drinking the Kool Aid.
The original link is there;but who cares? Some of the respondents have already sent emails to SIDs.
This kid - as well as others - think shooting HS is demeaning and want to start at the top. Funny, I work just as hard shooting a HS game as I did shooting NFL.
I read two pages and quit. I don't have the time. My advice is not to bother. We've already been down this road. I'm with Brian; whoever refused his App at SS.com I owe a beer to.
M |
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Walt Middleton, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 10:14 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> +1 Michael...
I agree totaly. |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 10:19 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> I'm old(er) but a 32 yr. old attorney isn't a kid anymore. |
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Geoff Robins, Photographer
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London | ON | Canada | Posted: 10:58 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> Since I was the one who started the comments against Mr. Korduner's behaviour over at FM, I will chime in here. I felt it had to be pointed out that this was an unacceptable way to try to break into the industry and by conducting himself this way Mr. Korduner made problems for those of us who do this for a living. I regret the tone of the discussion that followed (and unfortunately maybe I in part contributed to it) but the point had to be made that this behaviour was not to be applauded.
Hopefully he and other aspiring sports photographers who frequent FM will have been able to cut through the din of the argument and have learned from this "discussion".
If we want to continue in business we have to raise our voices against those who advocate giving things away for free (charity excepted) and we also have to defend our integrity as professionals.
Now I will shut up for a good long time! |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 11:15 PM on 10.20.09 |
| ->> i just hope someone didn't cross the line. :) |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 11:49 PM on 10.20.09 |
->> awesome. another thread judging silly people.
don't you hate the drivers that sneak into the front of a long line of cars trying to merge? some days, i could care less. other days, i'll make it my mission to trail the car in front of me absurdly close- making it impossible to be taken advantage of. one day, i simply refused to give an inch to a merge-cutter...who also refused. we hit mirrors. i felt like i won the battle, and had a scratched mirror as proof of my commitment to this little war.
anyway, about this liar... i think it matters because people SAY it matters- not because it ACTUALLY matters. this fella doesn't know his audience. he had no idea this would ruffle the feathers of career photographers who consider the actual media credential as confirmation of success. to some, the credential may represent the reward for years spend working on a craft or occupation that is loaded with downsides. after all, sports credentials are issued only to news or photo directors of accepted news organizations- meaning that someone must have confidence in your ability to make a photo if they are sending you some place where you have to present this magic card. it seems reasonable for the many who have worked so hard to get that season pass or single game credential to be upset with the guy who walked up and talked his way in.
all that said, these issues regarding access are a little weak, in my opinion. when the assignment comes to make pictures at the football game on saturday, it is likely that the requirement of the newspaper or wire service that made the assignment is to make some pictures, period. it is not to police the sidelines for undeserving amateurs. forgive my seeing it that way, but i'm puzzled at how folks have time to worry about such nonsense. while i understand that this guy chose to write about it on his own- and deserves the flak, i don't quite get calling the SID's and the declaration of another career fatal. i do appreciate that people are protective of their environment, but guys like this are simply not a threat. this wasn't a big deal until he told the world about it. now it's a big deal? why now?
i would almost go as far as saying that if it's that easy to talk your way onto the sidelines, you go girl. if the university cared that much about it, they would be better at gate-keeping. i would bet a paycheck that no SID is going to prioritize this guy (or guys like him) over a lengthy groin scratch. what do they care? they haven't worked a career to get a photo pass to the game. |
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Dave Breen, Photographer
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Somerset | PA | USA | Posted: 10:00 AM on 10.21.09 |
->> What I find most interesting is the SportsShooter archive which Max Simbron included in his post -- http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/271 -- in which a (now) legendary sports photographer is seems to be glorified by a newspaper writer for doing similar, if not more extreme things, to get a start in the business.
The administrators of SS.com apparently thought it would be interesting to share with the membership, although we don't know if they do (or did) condone such behavior.
Internet forums provide us all pulpits from which to flame and pontificate. Just think twice before you cast the first stone. |
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Jamey Price, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 10:22 AM on 10.21.09 |
| ->> Is it me or is the link to the post in question broken? |
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Richard Uhlhorn, Photographer
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Chelan Falls | WA | USA | Posted: 11:19 AM on 10.21.09 |
| ->> The link has been removed, I guess. I couldn't get it either. |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Jamey Price, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 9:26 PM on 10.21.09 |
| ->> WoW. Im stunned. Which wire services hired him on and why the heck did ESPN want his work? |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 10:50 PM on 10.21.09 |
->> Good Luck on that next year's list
douchebag! |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 11:32 PM on 10.21.09 |
| ->> seriously Dave, why post such a comment? |
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Keith Allison, Photographer, Assistant
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Will Powers, Photographer
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Denver | CO | USA | Posted: 12:48 AM on 10.22.09 |
->> Mr. Cantor,
Ive been covering Balloon boy for the AP. Met some nice paparazzi there. |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 1:26 AM on 10.22.09 |
->> ->> seriously Dave, why post such a comment?
maybe I sponsor him next time?
you want me to welcome him with a big hug and a kiss?
He insults our profession and that makes me angry! |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 4:14 AM on 10.22.09 |
->> ->> Good Luck on that next year's list
douchebag!
comments like this insult your profession. |
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Dave Doonan, Photographer
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Kingston | TN | USA | Posted: 8:34 AM on 10.22.09 |
| ->> Anantachai- lighten up |
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Jason Joseph, Photographer
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Cecil Copeland, Photographer
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Marietta (Atlanta) | Ga | USA | Posted: 11:49 AM on 10.22.09 |
->> So .... I'm wondering just how badly that post by John Korduner has hurt him ? I mean, has he really "committed career suicide" as Jody suggested ?
Is he still being credentialled by schools to legitimately be on the sidelines (even though one poster said he was passing the information along to the SID's at the universities) ? Is ICON/SMI still obtaining credentials for him and representing his work (and I know they know. Several shooters that I know shoot for ICON passed that information along to them) ?
Other than being lambasted in this thread AND the one at Fred Miranda - if there have been no other repurcussions for Mr. Korduner, then this public outcry about his methods and ethics won't matter too much to him, I don't think ..... |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 12:23 PM on 10.22.09 |
| ->> It may not matter much to him, but he obviously will never see the light of day as a member of this site. |
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Jamey Price, Photographer, Student/Intern
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 6:07 PM on 10.22.09 |
| ->> I personally am curious to see what Icon says about him and whether he continues to shoot for them. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 6:43 PM on 10.22.09 |
->> Jeff,
May I ask Why??
What did he do to be banned forever from this site??
Specifically that is.....
Ethics??? For ethics to mean something, they must be applied equally, to everybody, not only to a few and excused to others...
I'm not defending what this individual did, not at all, but this attitude towards some is inconsistent and sometimes unfair.
And going about getting guys fired because they didn't do things the way some here wanted them to do them??? How would it feel if any SS Member would get fired from a job because someone made a call about them?? Real or not... This is called karma, and it sucks when it is applied back!!
Again, I don't condone what this guy did, I don't know him and I don't know what prompted him to do what he did, but it's done and he's not the first, nor he will be the last.
Yeah, and lying to get into a sporting event or get a credential?? That sounds fairly familiar.... haven't I heard that before?? |
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Andrew Kornylak, Photographer
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Atlanta | GA | USA | Posted: 7:56 PM on 10.22.09 |
->> Cunning, determination and resourcefulness are indispensable in this Game. Too bad in this case, because that grit could have been channeled into something productive.
Getting a free spot on the sidelines is easy. Actually playing "The Game," - that is, starting and maintaining a business in photography - is infinitely harder. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 8:32 PM on 10.22.09 |
->> Amen Andrew!! AMEN!!
Y |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 9:41 PM on 10.22.09 |
->> Dave...I'm not the angry one.
Jamey...why is this such a big concern for you? What he did seemed to be a one time deal. The incident happened before signing with ICON. Its not a big deal, and I'm sure some have done worse to get their chance for access or internship.
Hell I do it at high school games where my daughter attends. Am I a douchbag for walking in like I know what I'm doing to get access to a game? After paying? If so...then so be it.
Mr. Anzaldi, Sued, and Kornylak...i agree.
I've met John once...and this was after I knew he was the poor guy that got knocked in the air, lands on his head, while holding his gear up...gets up and continues shooting. AND this is after driving 7 hours for a Tuesday night game, and return to work the next morning. |
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Jody Gomez, Photographer
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Murrieta | CA | USA | Posted: 10:35 PM on 10.22.09 |
->> Tony (Anantachai) - you pay to get in to HS games? :~)
Sorry - that was my attempt to lighten the mood a little. Carry on...
;~) |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 10:53 PM on 10.22.09 |
->> yeah... anything to help the school system.
:) |
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Anantachai Brown, Photographer
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Jacksonville | FL | | Posted: 11:01 PM on 10.22.09 |
->> if they'd let me, i'd help coach the receiver corps. Too many kids dropping balls these days because they try to catch with their arms.
the angle......i can then advertise for Senior HS portraits.
:) |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 11:51 PM on 10.22.09 |
->> Live and learn. As long as one is willing to learn.
I know of now well-respected and well-known photographers who pulled some stupid stunts early in their careers. They learned that what they did was not professional behavior and they got past it.
--Mark |
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Mark Peters, Photographer
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Highland | IL | USA | Posted: 12:13 AM on 10.23.09 |
| ->> and done. |
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