SportsShooter.com - Execution of a gator

	San Jose \| CA \| USA \| Posted: 12:33 PM on 10.04.09
	->> It looks to me as if the guy missed in that photo. Note the splash in the water well behind the gator's head. --Mark

Jamie Sabau, Photographer

Pickerington | OH | US | Posted: 12:48 PM on 10.04.09

->> Jim,

I understand what you mean and you're right. It would be FAR more disturbing if that was a person. But that wasn't really my point. The photo is more about the power and control the hunter has over the gator than the fact that it's a gator. Remove the gun and the gator and substitute anything and anyone else your imagination can conjure up in that situation and the uncomfortable, disturbing part of it is still the power and control one person is excercising over another. In an attempt to be terse I never explained it that way, but that's what I've meant all along.

Mark,

You may be right, but I don't think it matters much in my interpretation of the photo. Which, by the way, I have probably way over-interpretated. So, let's just end it here. Obviously everyone else just sees a photo of an alligator being hunted, which is what it is on face value.

Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor

Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 1:26 PM on 10.04.09

->> "...but have no problem with controlled hunting and love a good steak as much if not more than the rest of you."

Hmmmmm... are you implying that this wasn't a controlled, legal hunt?

"Am I being a little extreme? Perhaps. But I contend that that is one hell of a powerful photo that goes beyond two guys gator hunting for a living. That's what I believe good photojournalism should do. That photo stopped me in my tracks and made me reflect. That photo bugs me, as it should."

I agree that it's a powerful photo, but not because of the reasons you've given. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. And it's also OK that the image "bugs" you. But I disagree with the final statement that it "should" bug you (unless you're talking specifically about yourself).

It doesn't bug me. And that's OK, too. I simply see it as a window into traditional Southern culture. Looked like a really fun assignment.

Finally, to compare this photo to Eddie Adams' iconic image from Vietnam is, in my opinion, way off base.

Jeff Stanton, Photographer

	Princeton \| IN \| USA \| Posted: 2:24 PM on 10.04.09
	->> Jim I have to totally disagree with you. I feel your reasoning is simply heartless. And I mean, heartless! and the project I also have to chide the SS management for selecting such a feature to be published.

Jeff Martin, Photographer

	wellington \| OH \| usa \| Posted: 2:33 PM on 10.04.09
	->> Jeff, what was heartless?

Jim Owens, Photographer

	Cincinnati \| OH \| usa \| Posted: 3:00 PM on 10.04.09
	->> Jeff, Nowhere did I say I agreed with killing the gator. I simply disagreed with Jamie's statement that, I felt, equated killing animals as the same thing as killing humans. I believe Jamie recognized my intent. Regards, Jim

Brian Blanco, Photographer

	Tampa / Sarasota \| FL \| USA \| Posted: 3:10 PM on 10.04.09
	->> Stanton, Having lived in Florida my entire life I can tell you that I've seen quite a few photo stories on gator harvests... I've never seen one this powerful. Eich is a photojournalist and his photos did exactly what they're supposed to do. Respectfully, sir, I'm not sure why you'd "have to chide the SS management" over highlighting good photojournalism.

Jim Slosiarek, Photographer

	Cedar Rapids \| IA \| USA \| Posted: 3:10 PM on 10.04.09
	->> I agree with Mark. It looks like the guy is shooting behind the gator, into the water. Maybe an unseen gator below the surface of the water? In any event captions would have really helped the package. The images leave me curious but Matt left me hanging with not doing the other half of a photojournalist's job...providing context to his images with informative captions.

Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor

	Jackson \| WY \| USA \| Posted: 3:28 PM on 10.04.09
	->> "I also have to chide the SS management for selecting such a feature to be published." Again, please, by all means, elaborate...

Manuello Paganelli, Photographer

Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 3:37 PM on 10.04.09

->> "->> The photo is reminiscent of Eddie Adams' photo of the Viet Cong execution in the streets. Matt nailed the moment the bullet killed the alligator,"

All due respect but there is NOTHING reminiscent of Adams famous photograph in this image.

Matt Eich did a good reportage on these hunters and that is that.

Folks lets not compare a powerful and iconic image done under pressure during a war time by a master photographer and never knowing if the general pulling the trigger, or someone else, may had aim the gun at the photographer.

Adams brilliant image is a historical reminder of the horror of war and hatred. OF the suffering of children, women and humanity. In a war every one suffers even beyond those boundaries and they are very few winners.

For these gator hunters shooting a bullet into a hapless creature is a routine. And if you miss that shot they are 100 more gators waiting in line and for the hunters a safe route back home and a few cold beers waiting for them.

www.ManuelloPaganelli.com

Jamie Sabau, Photographer

Pickerington | OH | US | Posted: 4:09 PM on 10.04.09

->> Ok, first of all, I never compared this photo with Eddie Adams. I stated it was reminiscent of EA's photo. Check your dictionaries.

rem●i●nis●cent - having characteristics that recall something to one's mind

com●pare - to estimate the similarity between one thing and another

The fact that the gun is pointed right at the alligator's head and that Matt seemingly (though this point is understandably debatable) captured the moment the bullet enter the alligator's head summarily ending his life REMINDED me of Eddie Adams' iconic photo. So, with all due respect Manuello, yes, it is reminiscent.

Secondly, my original point to all this was not the fact that the alligator gets killed. As I wrote in an email to someone earlier, I don't care about the alligator. All I see is a pair of boots or a new leather belt. My point was this photo disturbed me because it represents the power and control this hunter has over the gator. It doesn't really matter if the bullet did or did not hit the alligator. The reality of this photo does not bother me. It's the symbolism, if you will, that got to me.

Again, as I wrote in an email to someone concerning this topic, replace the alligator's head with your own head facing down and the hunter's arm with your boss' arm holding a pink slip. Now how do you feel about the photo? In this economy and today's newspaper climate (if you work for a newspaper) and have a family does this photo now make you squirm? Maybe just a little bit?

I don't know if Matt was attempting to make any sort of commentary about power and control when he shot this photo and I don't care. Fact is, this photo, by itself, made me cringe when I saw it. It did indeed remind me of Eddie Adams photo and I contend that it certainly displays an example of the control one being exerts over another. Therefore, I'll also contend that it's an example of good photojournalism because I didn't just gloss over the photo and say to myself, "oh, cool photo." The picture made me stop and think. That doesn't happen with every picture I see. And no, that doesn't mean that every other photo I see is an example of bad photojournalism. Let's not go swimming in the sea of black & whites.

Matt, if you're reading this. Good job. Keep up the good work and I certainly will look forward to seeing more of your work.

Dave Breen, Photographer

Somerset | PA | USA | Posted: 4:23 PM on 10.04.09

->> Here we go again!

The images are powerful -- consider the discussion on this forum already. Is the third one "reminiscent" of the Adams photo -- I think so, but I'm not going to tell those of you who disagree you're wrong.

Did the bullet miss the 'gator and go into the water, or does the blur caused recoil of the gun make it appear the hunter missed? From that range, would the bullet go through the 'gator's head? Does it matter???

Gee whiz.

Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer

Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 4:25 PM on 10.04.09

->> "For these gator hunters shooting a bullet into a hapless creature is a routine. And if you miss that shot they are 100 more gators waiting in line and for the hunters a safe route back home and a few cold beers waiting for them. "

That routineness was happening in Vietnam during the conflict as well. Western journalists just werent there to cover it all the time. In fact, the United States was funding and giving weapons to Vietnamese Highlanders until 1992 to fight the Vietnamese government which was still brutally oppressing them and still killing hundreds of thousands.

My point is, killing a gator is not killing a human but a moment is a moment and it doesnt really matter how many are lined up in front or behind that gator/human. If the photographer captures that moment on film, it represents a culture, conflict, era and moment all in one. So in that way, Eich's image is indeed reminiscent of Adam's iconic photo. Its just a war fought over different reasons, in different places and with different enemies. Feel free to disagree. Just throwing my two cents :)

All the best on a WONDERFUL set of images Matt. Really powerful stuff.

Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor

Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 5:25 PM on 10.04.09

->> Jamie - your take on this particular photo is interesting. Albeit graphic, I interpreted this shot (no pun intended) as a "process" photo (the endgame of hunting alligator). But you have extracted an entirely different meaning. And that's cool - these discussions are neat to get a broader understanding of how these images impact people. I don't think yours is necessarily a greater or lesser interpretation, but it is very different from my own.

I personally don't see the "power and control" aspect, because I honestly don't think these guys are hunting alligators specifically (or overtly) to exert power and control over them. It's simply their lively hood. And while this image may very well have evoked those emotions from you, I think it's also important to step back and make sure that symbolism is appropriate to attach to this specific situation.

On another note, I do have to disagree with the statement in your earlier statement that "Matt's photo clearly shows what guns are intended for..." The implication, of course, is that the only use for guns is to kill, and I believe that's a pretty narrow and short-sighted interpretation.

Jamie Sabau, Photographer

	Pickerington \| OH \| US \| Posted: 5:38 PM on 10.04.09
	->> Bradley, Please, elaborate...

David Harpe, Photographer

Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 5:41 PM on 10.04.09

->> It looks to me as if the guy missed in that photo.

I don't think it's a miss. If you look at the photo closely there is blood spray in the vicinity of the head, and what looks like an entrance wound on the skull to the right and slightly below where the gun is in the photo. It looks like the gun was placed point blank against the head to finish off the gator. If the gun was placed at a slight angle and fired, the exit wound would be away from the camera and the bullet would enter the water where you see it hitting in the photo. The recoil would kick the gun up, which is the moment captured in the image. Everything makes sense when you think of the gun being placed against the head when the trigger was pulled.

We kill a LOT of animals, every single day, for a variety of reasons. Virtually everything you buy has some form of animal byproduct involved at some point in production. As a society we've chosen to put blinders on and keep eating and consuming, so most people don't have any reason to come to terms with mass killing of creatures until they see such a photo.

Mass slaughter of animals lower in the food chain. It's all part of the whole "having thumbs" thing...

Nina Zhito, Photographer

bay area | CA | | Posted: 7:56 PM on 10.04.09

->> Thank you, Jamie, for your eloquent and insightful perspective on these powerful photographs. The arrogance of absolute dominion just reeks from them.

It would be easy, certainly, to dismiss these images as just a chronicle of a day's work for alligator hunters.

But that would be as shortsighted and superficial as looking at the Louisiana water's surface, and failing to appreciate the dangers which lurk unseen beneath.

The waters are indeed "troubled": This series was aptly named by a master journalist, obviously deft in expressing both visual and verbal metaphor.

Perhaps it is not a coincidence that these photographs appear today, on the Feast Day of St. Francis, celebrated by Catholics -- the patron saint of animals and of the environment.

"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men."
St. Francis of Assisi

Daniel Bates, Photographer

	Fayetteville \| NC \| \| Posted: 9:09 PM on 10.04.09
	->> Mr. Zhito, I presume by your post that you do not own or consume any animal products whatsoever.

Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer

	Lexington \| VA \| USA \| Posted: 9:19 PM on 10.04.09
	->> I love animals. They're delicious.

Jeff Stanton, Photographer

Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 11:11 PM on 10.04.09

->> well, I guess I overreacted a little bit, but I'm still not pleased with the image selected for the front of the site. I've spent the better part of the last 30 years reporting on and photographing some of the worst people have to offer and I'll have to say I've had it up to my eyeballs in blood, guts and violence. People are so cruel to some animals and they act as if the animal has no feelings or usefulness in our world.

Maybe it's not a bad thing that we closely examine what we allow people to see. Maybe I'm just getting old, I don't know. I'm ready for a kinder, gentler time in my life with less blood and more thought given to those people and beings who have little or no protection.

Mike Anzaldi, Photographer

	Oak Park \| IL \| USA \| Posted: 11:18 PM on 10.04.09
	->> paging mr liddy. hey chuck, were going to need you here in the roosevelt room.

Allen Hubbard, Photographer

Spokane | WA | USA | Posted: 1:52 AM on 10.05.09

->> Reality Check!!!!!

This happens all over the country (and world for that matter) everyday with some kind of animal, bird, fish etc.
If you have ever eaten a steak, hamburger, chicken sandwich, turkey dinner, fishwich or whatever how do you think that animal was killed? They don't put an IV in and give it a lethal injection, the butchers around here walk into the barnyard with a gun and shoot the steer (or whatever animal) in the head which is the most humane place.

In most every state there is legal hunting, (turn on Versus TV channel)you will watch video as an animal is shot with a bullet or an arrow. It is a fact of life, the animals are part of the food chain.

I don't think there is anything "powerful" about the photo, yes they are good images but you can't in anyway compare these to photos of human death.

David Manning, Photographer

	Athens \| GA \| \| Posted: 1:56 AM on 10.05.09
	->> I'm looking forward to the completed project. Its good stuff. Lucio seems to have some of the best projects going on. As someone who has had an alligator growl at him, i really don't have a problem with the photo. I know where i am on the food chain.

Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer

Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 9:51 AM on 10.05.09

->> "I'm still not pleased with the image selected for the front of the site."

That is a fair statement, but this photo essay is not about happy fuzzy feelings. The most powerful image was chosen for the front and because it is so, you want to keep looking. If the image doesnt make you go "HOLY %$#*!" then I may be less likely to look further. Just because you dont want to believe its not happening, doesnt mean brutality is not.

Forgive me, but Im almost inclined to think you want to bury your head in the sand and say that no bad happens in this world. Would it have been different if Eddie Adam's photo had been put on the front? What is the difference?

I think were forgetting that while the image is brutal, it is also a way of life. Someone mentioned that earlier on. This is what some people do to make a living. The gators dont jump on the boat and roll over to be skinned. Its brutal. Its ugly. Its life and someone has to do it. Eich was just the one covering it and my personal viewpoint is he did it VERY well.

Jeff Crace, Photographer

	Temecula \| CA \| USA \| Posted: 10:48 AM on 10.05.09
	->> Sounds like a powerful photo in the fact that it has stirred emotions....

Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor

Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 12:53 PM on 10.05.09

->> What on earth is wrong with this forum..... 23 "huh" comments from 29 post ???

I'm sorry but even though we have some differing viewpoints presented here, each and EVERY member who has contributed has presented well laid out and clearly written post based upon their own feelings on the thread.

I perhaps don't agree with some of you, and my own personal beliefs and values certainly do differ in some ways, and as such I'm not going to come around to your way of thinking anymore than you may mine. However, I can still understand the message your expressing, but as I said, I just don't agree with it but thats fine. We don't have to agree.

Is this what the "huh" tag has become ? A way to say that while a members post was well written, and that even though any halfway literate adult could understand it, because we disagree or don't share that value/belief/interpretation we are going to mark it "huh".

If Jamie, for example, said that image reminded him of Eddie Adams famous photo and expressed what personally made him that way, what on earth is hard to understand about that ?

His post was well written, logical, and he presented good supporting information as to why he felt the way he did.
Unless English isn't your native language whats so hard to understand about that ?

Did he use too big of words ? Was the spelling/grammar so poor you couldn't understand his sentences ? Was it a crazy 3am rambling after a night of drinking and pure gibberish ? No, none of the above.

Only reason for anyone to mark his post, or any other post in this thread "huh" is because you personally disagree with it and wanted to send a message that you not only disagree, but in fact find his viewpoint or belief so far to the left of yours that you feel the need to disrespect him and his viewpoint publicly by suggesting that you can't even understand it its so crazy and out there. That's just such an insult to him, and anyone else who posted here.

Jamie is a great photographer and a very nice guy. He was simply trying to comment about how powerful he found a photograph and compliment its creator.

We see plenty of great photos on SS but usually they are just of the "cool shot", "wish I thought of that" variety. It really is rare to see an image that stirs emotions, just as Jamie suggested. That is truly being a master of this craft. Not just to come up with a unique camera angle, but to actually move people and make them think.

I'd say the bottom line is this; Jamie said it was a powerful photo and moved him and made him think and we've got 30 rather passionate post here about the subject as well. So I'd said he was 100% correct about that fact of it being a powerful shot.

Richard Denham, Photographer

Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 1:43 PM on 10.05.09

->> man i really hate when people can't link to crap they are talking about. of all the things in this post, this is the one that pisses me off the most.

he link to Matt's member page where said photo is located
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=5883

as per the discussion, it's a gator and a gun, what more could you show to portray and stereotype the american south. it's a moment in time, and as pj's our job is to capture moments in time. is it reminiscent of ea's work, yeah, i can see it. does it evoke emotion, not really, it's a gator for christ sakes.

if you don't like the photo, move on and eat your salad. don't prosecute the photographer for doing his job. i think matt did a great job with his images, and portrayed to me (living up north in igloo's)what goes on in a day of alligator hunting. all the comments about the power we have over animals, duh! really. people we are the top of the food chain, with that responsibility comes power....

David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor

	Toledo \| OH \| USA \| Posted: 2:22 PM on 10.05.09
	->> Obviously the late Walt Kelly had something to say about this thread.... http://tinyurl.com/36t69c

Jamie Sabau, Photographer

Pickerington | OH | US | Posted: 3:37 PM on 10.05.09

->> An update for everyone.

The gator in question in the photo called me today to say that the posters who claimed he was not shot were correct. The bullet missed him and he said he's doing fine, spending quality time with his family.

He also told me-his name is Kevin, BTW-that he understands now that he looks at the photo how I could have interpreted it the way I did, but that it was nothing like that.

"It was consensual. He hunts. I get hunted."

In fact, he understands it's his lot in life to be the hunted and he said he harbors no ill feelings toward the hunters. I told Kevin that, nonetheless, I still think it's a pretty powerful photo that represents more than just gator hunting or Southern culture. He just said, "ok."

I asked him if he thought the photo reminded him of the execution of Nguyễn Văn Lém after he saw it. He just replied, "I don't know who that is." After that we just talked about the 4-0 start for the Saints and how lucky he's been that there's been no severe hurricanes this season.

So, it's all good!

Alex Menendez, Photographer

	Orlando \| FL \| USA \| Posted: 3:51 PM on 10.05.09
	->> Hey Jamie, Aren't you the guy who "shoots penguins"?? :)

Nina Zhito, Photographer

bay area | CA | | Posted: 4:25 PM on 10.05.09

->> if images of death and dying and the taking of sentient life, whether human or animal, don't evoke an emotion or reaction beyond a "HUH?", then i gently suggest an examination of one's capacity for empathy.

without empathy and the ability to create emotional context, the act of photography is just recording visual data.

and it might just as well be performed by a security camera or remote drone. in my opinion, photojournalism is sufficiently endangered and competitive without adding human drones to its practitioners.

clearly, i empathized more with the hunted than the hunters. if the coverage evolves and the plight of the hunters is fleshed out, no doubt i'll feel more for them. so far, they are pretty unsympathetic.

regardless, these photographs are marvelous. they work at so many levels, as deeply as one wants to... or can... or might learn to ... go.

well done indeed.

Richard Denham, Photographer

Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 9:57 PM on 10.05.09

->> Quote Nina Zhito
"without empathy and the ability to create emotional context, the act of photography is just recording visual data"

really, tell that to all the brides i shoot throughout the year who call me in tears when they see their photos, because of the emotions i captured that day. or how about to all the parents who jump for joy when getting a giant 4ftx3ft canvas wrap of their kid and book a family portrait with me for the next 5 years.

nothing personal but just because i have no empathy towards some swamp animal that is being hunted doesn't mean i don't have the ability to create emotional context. if i didn't have that ability than i wouldn't survive in the world of wedding photography.

i have empathy, i have empathy for the death of humans, mankind, brothers & sisters. i do not have empathy however for some animal living in the swamp that is being hunted, or any other animal for that matter. again, it's the food chain thing, we are at the top of it.

Alex Blackwelder, Student/Intern

Powell | TN | USA | Posted: 3:47 AM on 10.06.09

->> Do we really have to argue about whether or not this is a powerful photo? Each and every one of us will look at this image and feel completely different about it. That's what is so wonderful about individuality.

I personally find this series very powerful. Especially because we usually see animal slaughter in the context of defenseless, pitiful animals like cows and pigs. But here we see a strong beast who scares the jeebus out of people, completely defenseless. It is a good reminder of the power we humans have over virtually everything in the world. Sometimes that power is a little unnerving.

Chuck Liddy, Photographer

Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 11:30 AM on 10.06.09

->> Richard, I thought polar bears were the top of the food chain up there? I mean, I heard you guys were just appetizers....

DISCLAIMER: This is a joke. For those of you maybe wanting fire off a "huh" here is the definition....

JOKE
Pronunciation: ˈjōk
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin jocus; perhaps akin to Old High German gehan to say, Sanskrit yācati he asks
Date: 1670

1 a : something said or done to provoke laughter; especially : a brief oral narrative with a climactic humorous twist b (1) : the humorous or ridiculous element in something (2) : an instance of jesting : kidding c : practical joke d : laughingstock
2 : something not to be taken seriously : a trifling matter —often used in negative constructions

Dave Breen, Photographer

	Somerset \| PA \| USA \| Posted: 12:48 PM on 10.06.09
	->> I knew it !!! Kevin (see Jamie's post six above this one) obviously heard how easy it is to start a fight on the message boards, and has been playing with everyone. He is indeed a cunning creature, getting so many people to see red (or at least pink). I am starting a movement to bring gators a step or two up the food chain.

Richard Denham, Photographer

	Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara \| On \| Canada \| Posted: 4:25 PM on 10.06.09
	->> "->> Richard, I thought polar bears were the top of the food chain up there? I mean, I heard you guys were just appetizers...." actually it's the penguins that are at the top, but they don't tell anyone that. again, as chuck said DISCLAIMER: This is a joke. penguins don't live in canada, duh!

Richard Wolowicz, Photographer

Brossard | QC | Canada | Posted: 7:27 PM on 10.06.09

->> Jamie,

Did Kevin offer any opinions on Mark Sanchez's and the Jets performance this weekend ?

On a side note, I'm about to start a PayPal fund to help fund a new keyboard for Mr.Denham ... appears that his "shift" button is broken. Please send all donations to: help@fundanewkeyboardforrickdenham.com

Thanks

Disclaimer: I've known Mr.Denham for some years and enjoy his work and bad sense of humor but, I'm serious about his keyboard ... it's making me nuts. Thank you ... kisses.

Richard Denham, Photographer

	Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara \| On \| Canada \| Posted: 11:17 PM on 10.06.09
	->> hEY wOLOWICZ hOW COME THE NEWFIES WERE SO HAPPY TO HEAR QUEBEC WANTED TO SEPERATE? tHEY FIGURED IT WOULD BE A SHORTER DRIVE TO THE T-DOT sE MY SHIFT KEY WORKS, PERMANENTLY NOW YOU S.O.B. HOPE THIS HELPS YOUR SANITY ... HUGGS

Michael Myers, Photographer

Miami Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 12:42 AM on 10.08.09

->> I'm not sure how to comment here.

How would you guys feel if the guy was shooting a dog, cat, horse, or some other animal that people "like".

How do you feel about the place out west where Life Magazine (I think) captured a fox hunt where the guys and kids went around clubbing the helpless foxes to death? ...or the same thing when it was baby seals not that long ago?

It used to be where big-game-hunters were hanging up their "trophies" to brag to others, before the world started frowning on the practice. Seeing Teddy Roosevelt standing alongside some big game that he had just killed doesn't create the same emotions in viewers that it used to.

Most people like dogs, but a few years back there was a photo I'll never forget of a guy on a bicycle with a cage of dogs strapped to the back, eventually to be cooked and eaten. This was in Cambodia.

I'm in the minority here, but I just don't like seeing photos of animals being killed, especially if it's just for sport. Maybe these gators were for food, but the captions don't say that.

(I probably feel the way I do, because I grew up in a big American city. Some people overseas have no problem with printing horrible photos of people who die in gruesome accidents, or after they're killed by the police. Those images bother me too. Is it "news", or is it "gore"? ...back when I was growing up, the local sheriff's office had a wall full of photos of mutilated or burnt corpses from car wrecks, to show people the results of unsafe driving. Those photos were extremely effective - but I doubt anyone would show them off that way in today's world.)

Ages ago, a friend showed me some movies of "Faces of death". I'm sorry now that I ever watched it.

About the photos of the gator slaughter - I'll agree that those are powerful images, but they're images I'd rather not see. For that matter, I enjoy a steak dinner, but I wouldn't want to see photos of cattle being slaughtered.

Richard Denham, Photographer

	Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara \| On \| Canada \| Posted: 9:07 AM on 10.08.09
	->> Quote Michael Myers "I'm in the minority here, but I just don't like seeing photos of animals being killed, especially if it's just for sport" Then turn the page and look at something different, it's that simple.

Michael Myers, Photographer

Miami Beach | FL | USA | Posted: 12:13 PM on 10.08.09

->> Richard, I don't think it's that simple.

Suppose you're someone who hates images of dead people, and suddenly finds a collection of those old Sheriff's Dept. photos that used to hang on the wall, of burnt people in burned up cars. Grossed out, you quickly walk away from it all, trying unsuccessfully to block it out of your memory.

Those photos were deliberately nasty, to provide a shock value, which was used at the time to get new drivers to drive in a safe manner, seeing the horrible results of driving unsafely.

Someone seeing them nowadays would be even more shocking, and while people can easily do as you said, walk away/turn the page, the image is still going to be stuck in their memory for a long time.

Maybe this is no big deal - as people usually have a choice in determining what they're going to look at, ahead of time. Someone who doesn't want to see photos of dead animals can simply avoid those websites that have that kind of thing.

I agree with the suggestions up above, which said that those images don't belong on the Sportsshooter website. There are plenty of places to find blood and gore if that's what someone wants to see, but this website shouldn't be one of them.

(Even in India, where "gross" photos are no big deal, people hide the really nasty stuff from the general public. If you go to buy chicken for dinner, you'll go to a shop where there are cages of live chickens. If you want to buy a chicken dinner, the guys who run these shops pick out the chicken and take it behind a wall, so you don't actually get to see the chicken decapitated. When he comes back out to the front of the shop, he's got a headless and quiet dead chicken, which he cuts up as needed. The killing part isn't done where people can see it happen. Yeah, you're right, I can "turn the page", and I'm possibly one of the few people who are bothered by this kind of thing, and I probably should not have clicked on the link here to see the photo... In retrospect, I'd rather have not seen it.)

Let me ask you this - suppose a photo contest were being held, and the images were being placed in a public gallery, where the public could see them before the winners were announced. Thousands of people were going to see the images, including families and kids. Let's take the photo of the gator being shot - how would you feel about that photo being included in the gallery?

Bradly J. Boner, Photographer, Photo Editor

Jackson | WY | USA | Posted: 12:49 PM on 10.08.09

->> I would concede that perhaps the image of the dude shooting the gater shouldn't have been put on the front page of the site. But just maybe. Most newspaper probably wouldn't have put it on their front pages, but likely would have ran it inside (at least I hope so). As editors, we need to realize that just because something isn't that graphic to one person doesn't mean it won't be graphic to the next. This is an excellent example of that; this images has evoked everything from "no big deal" to "totally offended."

But I disagree with Michael Myers that "those images don't belong on the Sportsshooter website." While this site really started as a gathering place for sports photographers, I think most everyone can agree the administrators have allowed it to evolve to include all aspects of photography, including documentary photojournalism, and just because an image might be a little gruesome to some doesn't mean it should be censored completely. Good photojournalism means not being afraid to make and run pictures, as uncomfortable as they might be, that accurately and completely tell a particular story, and I commend SportsShooter's administrators for allowing good photojournalism on their site.

Also, throughout this thread I've seen the words "suppose..." and "what if..." proceeding hypothetical situations. We could make up and debate hypothetical situations all day. None of them change the actual content of the image and why it's relevant to the story the photographer is hoping to tell.

Matthew Sauk, Photographer

	Sandy \| UT \| United States \| Posted: 1:06 PM on 10.08.09
	->> maybe I am missing something, but is gator hunting illegal? I fail to see what the heck is the big deal about someone shooting a gator...Sorry. It is a gator, not a human

Kevin Martin, Photo Editor, Photographer

	Baton Rouge \| LA \| United States \| Posted: 1:48 PM on 10.08.09
	->> Gator hunting is a seasonal activity much like deer hunting or turkey hunting or dove hunting. In Louisiana, alligator season usually starts the first Wednesday in September and runs for 30 days. Landowners get a certain amount of tags for the season from the state.

Richard Denham, Photographer

Toronto/Buffalo/Niagara | On | Canada | Posted: 2:08 PM on 10.08.09

->> Quote from Michael Myers
"Suppose you're someone who hates images of dead people, and suddenly finds a collection of those old Sheriff's Dept. photos that used to hang on the wall, of burnt people in burned up cars. Grossed out, you quickly walk away from it all, trying unsuccessfully to block it out of your memory.

Those photos were deliberately nasty, to provide a shock value, which was used at the time to get new drivers to drive in a safe manner, seeing the horrible results of driving unsafely."

If only they were still there. See the reason I don't have a problem with the gator photos, the drunk driver photo's, or any other photo's with in the reason of death in humanity, is because they are part of people's lives. If we could stop worrying about offending a few people, honestly I think society would be a better place. There are to many fence sitters in this world, to many people willing to speak their opinion, to many people wanting to make everyone else happy.

This is photojournalism, and a good job of it. It you disagree with the images being on ss.com, then as I mention before, turn your head, leave the site, stop being a member. The world should not stop because one or two people can't handle the death of a gator. It has been said many times before on this site, we have developed into a place for photojournalists, who happen to have a common interest in sports, to hang out. again, if that doesn't jive with you, stop paying dues and go become a member of "dontshootgators.com"

Quote Michael Myers
"Someone seeing them nowadays would be even more shocking, and while people can easily do as you said, walk away/turn the page, the image is still going to be stuck in their memory for a long time."

Freaking good, maybe now someone will think twice about buying a set of alligator shoes from Giorgio Brutini, or think twice before getting in to a car and driving under the influence. GOOD GOOD GOOD GOOD GOOD!

I know, it's a gator, personally I could care less about them, but someone does. If you do, go to the right place and discuss your issues. But don't discuss your issues with gator hunting on a photography forum. It was a great image, as I mentioned before it made me think I was down south drinking jack on a swamp boat. Just don't hate the image for the actions it is portraying, that's not what this site is about.

Quote Michael Myers
"Let me ask you this - suppose a photo contest were being held, and the images were being placed in a public gallery, where the public could see them before the winners were announced. Thousands of people were going to see the images, including families and kids. Let's take the photo of the gator being shot - how would you feel about that photo being included in the gallery?"

The same way I feel about it here. I come to this site because I know what the site is about. If I were to go to that site, not knowing what it was about and saw something that disgusted me, then guess what, I WOULD LEAVE THE SITE AND NEVER COME BACK, not sit and complain about it.

Chuck Liddy, Photographer

Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:15 PM on 10.08.09

->> I totally disagree with these statements about the photos here:
"don't belong on the Sportsshooter website".
and here:
"this website shouldn't be one of them".

From the "About Us" on Sportsshooter:
"SportsShooter.com is an online community and resource for sports photographers and other working photojournalists."

The gator hunting story was documentary photography. Photojournalism. Was is great? Well,there were several strong photos and to be honest a couple of pretty weak ones. But you seriously think we should censor photos on the site because they make someone uncomfortable. I would like to think that most members would be MORE uncomfortable by the thought of censoring their work.
Just something to think about.

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