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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
"We can give your a credit"
David Scriven, Photographer
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Rochford | Essex | United Kingdom | Posted: 11:27 AM on 09.30.09 |
->> Someone please reassure me that I am doing the right thing?
In the past week I have had three phone calls from regional newspapers wanting to use some of my photos in their papers.
Once I have told them what I want for them (which is a very reasonable rate) all of them have said "will you not do it for a credit?" No one even tried to negotiate me down which I thought was strange.
Someone tell me that I am doing the right thing by declining? |
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Debra L Rothenberg, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 11:30 AM on 09.30.09 |
->> does a photo credit pay your rent?
Your insurance?
Dinner?
A pair of new sneakers?
a copy of the local paper?
If you answered NO to any of the above, you did the right thing |
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Marc F. Henning, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 11:31 AM on 09.30.09 |
->> you are doing the right thing. nuff said.
marc |
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David Scriven, Photographer
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Rochford | Essex | United Kingdom | Posted: 11:33 AM on 09.30.09 |
->> Yeah I sort of knew I was, but was just amazed it had happened three times in a week when the enquiries were all from papers I have never dealt with before.
If it had been from somewhere I thought I may do repeat business with on a regular basis I may have done it but the likely hood of that (I'm not normally in their patch) is slim to none. |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 11:47 AM on 09.30.09 |
->> "If it had been from somewhere I thought I may do repeat business with on a regular basis I may have done it..."
- So you could get repeat unpaid business?
Yes there are exceptions, but in general the price you set will lead to more business at that price level. Set a a price level of "credit" and that is what you can expect to keep receiving.
It can be a very very very long time before the value of photo credits can overtake your own poverty and lead to some well paid work. |
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Patrick Meredith, Photographer, Assistant
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Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 11:50 AM on 09.30.09 |
| ->> I'm curious why you would give free images to someone who you might do business with in the future...If you give them free images now, why would they want to pay you in the future? Seems like a slippery slope. |
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Scott Evans, Photographer
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Bay Village | OH | USA | Posted: 12:24 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> I'm guessing they didn't negotiate because they have 42.5 more people lined up to call with the same question, many of whom may just say yes. This is what really irks me about our current state of affairs. We read daily (often right here) about how the newspaper industry is getting screwed by online blogs with free content and yet they display remarkable hypocrisy by asking for the same from freelancers. Unreal!
By the way, I hope you gathered from that reply that I think you did the right thing too. |
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Jeff Stanton, Photographer
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Princeton | IN | USA | Posted: 12:27 PM on 09.30.09 |
| ->> You have to realize there are so many people who give away their work, they figure it doesn't hurt to ask. But you did the right thing. The bank doesn't take photo credits. |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 12:34 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> David if you really needed to ask that question then I would wonder if you are best suite to be a priest, a bishop or a missionary doctor.
How difficult is to understand that a photo used is a photo pay for????
How about this John Smith opens a 5 stars restaurant and goes around asking his competition if is ok to give his meals for free? Maybe we all should go to a restaurant and ask the chef to give us free supper and we will pass his restaurant's name around to other people? HOw crazy does that sounds?
Again, why would anybody be a photographer thinking that FREE maybe ok, or even have ANY questions regarding this? Totally sureal & pretty sad too.
I am at a lost!!
More 2 Come
www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Curtis Clegg, Photographer
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Sycamore | IL | USA | Posted: 12:41 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> The bank doesn't take photo credits.
To paraphrase a Monty Python skit:
"He takes bits of string, wood, dead budgerigars, photo credits, sparrows, anything, but it does make the cashier's job very difficult; but of course they're fools too themselves because the rate of interest over ten years on a piece of moss or a dead vole or photo credit is almost negligible." |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 12:47 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> Jeff "->> You have to realize there are so many people who give away their work,.."
Yes when it comes to folks who are not photographers but weekend shooters. FOlks who pick up a digital camera and think that they can shoot like any other pro. But photographers?
NONE of my fellow photographers friends, unless is a charity they believe in, give their images away to newspapers, magazines or any commercial venture.
A photographer who has doubt then should be doing something else or he/she will fail fast and will hurt the rest of us.
A pity that each time we make a small progress then a semi truck gets in front of us and slow us down.
ONe thing is educating clients about better payments and © or even helping other photographers learning how to become better biz people but when I have to pat a photographer in the back and make them sure that giving images away is a NO NO then I do have a huge problem specially with all the OnYourNose web education & forums like this one. Yet there is still doubt that free images maybe ok??
www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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David Scriven, Photographer
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Rochford | Essex | United Kingdom | Posted: 1:40 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> @ Ian & Patrick
I suppose what I meant was if they paid for this one, then in the future I might chuck a free one here and there their way if they were on my patch.
I have a few clients now that regularly pay me for my work and every now and then to keep up good relations and so they feel that along with getting good work they are getting a good service I may supply the odd image FOC. Customer satisfaction is good business sense IMHO along with getting a fair price. A bit of give and take.
@ Scott
I was the only one who got this image that was the story they were covering so it was a case of a picture, or no picture but appreciate what you are saying in general.
@ Manuello
As I said a bit further down I sort of knew the answer to my question, what was more surprising was how three potential clients didn't even bother to try and negotiate the price. Even in these tough times that surprised me. |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 2:58 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> David "I have a few clients now that regularly pay me for my work and every now and then to keep up good relations and so they feel that along with getting good work they are getting a good service I may supply the odd image FOC. Customer satisfaction.."
IF you providing good work & good service then you are doing your part.. That alone is customer satisfaction. There is NO NEED to give them ANY IMAGES FOC!!
THAT IS NOT a great way to do biz at all. On this one you can trust me.
About ten year ago a top photo editor of one of the top US magazine phone me and told me, "YOu are the most expensive freelancers we have. We love your work and we will keep on using it." To me this was the biggest compliment ANY client had given me. Usually is the oppositive, "you charge too much so we can't use you again."
If they love your work they will keep calling you. Again NO NEED to give any freebies at all. Just deliver time after time with professionalism, brilliant work and respect and those two things go long ways.
www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Shelley Cryan, Photographer
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New England | CT | USA | Posted: 3:34 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> David,
You are right to have passed on this deal (if you can call it a deal). You're surprised they didn't even try to negotiate down.
It has less to do with the economy than it does with human nature and basic business.
Since you offered a fair price, and they insisted they wanted the images only for free or not at all, you know they will not pay. They just don't have any budget for it. None. Nada. Zip. Maybe the business is hurting, maybe they just don't value photos, maybe they can fill the space with someone else's free photos. In any case, you wouldn't ever get paid by these companies.
Furthermore, if you give a company photos for free, they will NEVER pay. Why would they? They'll lump you in with the group Manuello refers to as "weekend shooters." and you will never be paid. Ever. And you would have made it harder for the next professional to get paid by them.
Working for free? Charitable causes are fine. Taking pictures for elderly Aunt Elsa is fine. But if other vendors or staffers are getting paid by the same entity that tells you they can't pay you, it's time to walk.
Listen to Manuello. And good call on holding your ground.
Shelley
www.shelleycryan.com |
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Steven E. Frischling, Photographer
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102 Yards From The Beach | CT | | Posted: 6:38 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> David,
It is not just the photo industry. While I have experienced this time and time and time and time and time again as a professional photographer, it also occurs in other professions.
I recently co-Authored an extremely detailed 62 page research report on airline marketing & communications through social media. The report is being sold to airlines, airports and marketing firms and has generated significant coverage from industry media as well as some main stream media as well as some main-stream national media.
Well anyway I recently received a phone call from a major global airline asking if I could send them the report at no charge...they'd 'really appreciate it.'
I am happy this global airline would 'really appreciate it.' Their rational for getting it for free? They were mentioned in the report and I detailed some significant statistics regarding their social media efforts and potential for using emerging media to generate direct and ancillary revenue. The info I gathered about this airline was compiled completely independent of their input, but they thought it was only fair they be comp'd a copy since "you did detail us very extensively."
It isn't just newspapers and photo clients that assume everyone is happy to give away their work. If information and content suppliers give their information away, what is the point of even creating the content and information? Somewhere along the way a misconception was created that information and creative content was 'free.' WRONG! |
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
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Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 8:31 PM on 09.30.09 |
| ->> Sam. You beat me to it. I was just about to post this. It's brilliant. |
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Derek Montgomery, Photographer
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Vasiliy Baziuk, Photographer
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 9:20 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> David
you should have said credit is fine.... Visa, MasterCard, Citi or American Express???
I usually tell them i don't do credit.... cuz i'm trying to pay my credit off, lol |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | | Posted: 10:13 PM on 09.30.09 |
->> Sam, Mark--
This: http://www.xtranormal.com/watch?e=20090929103500534
should be mandatory viewing with a test afterward for anyone who ever thinks of calling themselves a professional photographer, and for all those weekend GWC's as well. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 10:36 PM on 09.30.09 |
| ->> Steve, I think they've seen it. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 9:56 PM on 10.01.09 |
->> What Manuello said. I could get into a long winded piece but if it's price and price alone, the customer will usually end up costing you more than it's worth. FIND a UNIQUE niche and OWN it in your marketplace.
It's that simple. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:15 PM on 10.01.09 |
->> FWIW,
My Clients rarely complain about my prices.
I have had the Instances where they have a Set Budget and they request that I work around their Budget. If their Budget is tight, they will eventually make it up to me in future jobs, and believe me, they do!! In my case, I'm not a HardAss about pricing, but I don't give it away for free either!!
Y |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 5:07 AM on 10.02.09 |
| ->> If they don't want to pay, ask them for advertising in exchange. And not just some 2x3 ad in the Obits. Get a 1/4 or 1/2 page ad in whatever section your customer is likely to read... short of that, tell them to pound sand. Barter is part of their DNA and they are used to it. |
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Steve Ueckert, Photographer
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Houston | TX | | Posted: 7:39 AM on 10.02.09 |
->> Jeff--
Ya think?
My reply to them was an elaboration of the more simple reply of "x2" or "x3" but maybe I should just keep it simple for the sake of all. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 9:58 AM on 10.02.09 |
->> Getting content for free is now a business model. It works often enough that it is sustainable.
There is usually no point in arguing with publishers/editors/etc. beyond one round of negotiation - they are either willing to pay money for the content, or they're not. No amount of guilting or education will change their mind in any meaningful way. If the photo is unique enough, they'll find a way to pay for it if it is worth it to them. Otherwise they just move on to the next person who is happy to get a photo credit. I used to preach the gospel to these folks, but my head hurts too much from banging it against the wall.
When I first started shooting stills I occasionally shot for photo credit because I didn't know any better (and I didn't have a Sports Shooter membership yet). Once I met others in the trade and started to learn about the business I stopped shooting for free very quickly. I now try to reach out to shooters that I know are shooting for free and help them understand the futility of the act.
What I tell them is there is no risk in concentrating on paid gigs and letting free ones go, because you will always be able to find someone who will let you work for free. That opportunity will exist in a month, a year, two years, forever. If you really think that's the way to go, it'll still be there for you later.
But right now, while your equipment is still working and you have your health, you need to focus on learning to make money. Because later, when your shutter blows or you break your arm, free isn't going to help you. Make some money so you don't become a two-years-and-then-out shooter. |
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Phil Hawkins, Photographer
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Fresno | ca | usa | Posted: 10:38 AM on 10.02.09 |
| ->> I've said it before but it bears repeating; if anyone wants to read one of the best discussions on this subject, get John Harrington's book "Best Business Practices for Photographers" Best $35 I ever spent. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 10:46 AM on 10.02.09 |
->> "...they are either willing to pay money for the content, or they're not .... Otherwise they just move on to the next person who is happy to get a photo credit. I used to preach the gospel to these folks, but my head hurts too much from banging it against the wall."
If the folks who start publications would budget appropriately in the start up process for photo as do they editorial content, they could pay for content delivered by professionals and freelancers and offer readers a much higher quality publication, something that would nearly guarantee they'll be around for a long while.
The same year, six months after we started our area sports magazine, another company from out of state came in and tried to do the same. Their business model was based on not paying for both editorial or photo content and instead relying on coaches, ADs and parents to supply content. They had only four ads. One had to be a trade out by a photographer who had good majority of the photos in the two issues I saw and the other three from towns out of state. The quality of their publication was as you would expect with content 70% supplied by PWCs. The publisher asked for an annual subscription fee for the product which folded about a year later.
On the other hand, our publication is a free subscription fully paid for through advertising. While our bimonthly magazine is by no stretch of the imagination perfect, when we conceived the idea the most important element was including a sufficient budget to pay for editorial and photo content from professionals. I hear compliments from athletes and parents on a regular basis. We're still forging ahead. In about 90 days we'll finish our second year despite the effects of the economy on advertising. The publisher and I are looking forward to another successful partnership in 2010 and beyond.
When it comes to negotiating by the way, the person who is making the call or emails is usually not the person who controls the budget. Been there done that for a book publisher. When I join the house they paid diddley squat for photos and hired me primarily to get either free or cheap content, but they wanted me to get the same content that magazine publishers were using that "for credit" BS. It took six months but I convinced the a few of the acquisitions editors to increase the dollar amounts for photos for their books. Of course, I gave them an estimate that was a tiny bit high so we both looked good when the project came in under budget on that line item. In the end, we had better quality photos and the photographers I worked with, many who are now SS members, were paid more (not great) on a per picture we licensed. This experience is what shaped our magazine photo budget.
My advice is if you get a call or email asking to use a photo, find out how bad the potential client needs it. Then ask to speak the contact person's supervisor or the person in charge. Negotiate with them as you might have a better chance influencing their compensation model. |
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