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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Business advice for a young photog
Jenna Tower, Photographer
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Berkeley | CA | | Posted: 11:25 PM on 09.14.09 |
->> Hi Everyone,
I have a situation that requires a little advice from more experienced photographers. I shoot a lot of ballroom competitions and a friend of mine suggested to her competition coordinator that they hire me for their promotion photos. I received an email from the coordinator stating that I could do all sorts of promotional stuff at the competition like putting out ads and my card etc. so couples could buy my photos but that she required a certain number for her website free of charge. What gets me is that I know they paid the previous photographer so why would I not get paid?
How do I tell her nicely that my time is important and that I will not be giving her any photos for free?
Thanks for the advice! |
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Ian L. Sitren, Photographer
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Palm Springs | CA | USA | Posted: 11:50 PM on 09.14.09 |
->> Jenna, they don't care about your time. They just want to get free photos from you or the next person.
Is the previous photographer a previous photographer because he or she was not going to get paid any more by them either?
Are they such an important competition promoter that they will really be a benefit to you if you did give them photos?
Do people actually buy photos of themselves in sufficient quantities and at a high enough price to be of real value. Or are you going to be selling three 8x10's per week for ten bucks each.
You need to evaluate those things and just stand up and say what you have to. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 6:28 AM on 09.15.09 |
->> Jenna,
What Ian says is true. Providing a product that there is not sufficient demand for is a great way to lose your tush - there HAS to be a desire for the product at a high enough price to justify your time, your investment in your equipment and overhead.
I'm having a hard time seeing what you could provide could be worth significantly more to someone than someone with a P&S.
That's not a reflection of your talent, but how the consumer would view it.
IF you can do something different that the P&S set can't easily duplicate, that enough people would be willing to pay for, THEN you have a opportunity. It would have to be "cool".
Michael |
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Kevin Krows, Photographer
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Forsyth | IL | USA | Posted: 8:37 AM on 09.15.09 |
->> Jenna:
Regardless of what they have done in the past, you need create your own value proposition without appearing defensive. Try to give them something they don't have and you stand a better chance at winning the job and making some money.
For example, you could propose that your fees include use of your images for promotional purposes for 1 year. If the quality of your work is good, stress how they help communicate and reinforce the professional nature of the event and may increase attendance (receipts) and entry fees.
Having your images avaialble on-line within 24 hours or less can also add value as participants are always interested in seeing images shortly after their performance. Again, this is a service and the money you make from the sales of prints pays for it.
Finally, decide how much profit is enough and at what point you are willing to return proceeds back to the organization to offset costs in the future. For example, if your goal is to clear $1000 for the event, you may offer to split proceeds above that level and credit that amount to your fees for next year. I'm not a big fan of "pay to play" but if it helps provide an incentive for future reoccuring business then I'm open to it since I typically stay away from "one-hit" deals. This type of arrangement also provides an incentive for the event to promote your services as they now have some skin in the game.
Bottom line is to have your value propostion prepared in advance and anticipate that any organization (regardless of the event) will always begin by getting you to work for free. You don't need to shoot every event to be successful..just those that understand the value you create for them.
Good luck. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 9:12 AM on 09.15.09 |
->> I don't know about 'now' but back around 03-04 I knew a photographer that traveled the country shooting ballroom dance. He strobed the ballroom and sold prints to competitors. I've lost touch with him so I don't know if there is still a market or if he is still shooting these events. I know that back then it was worth his effort to fly 2 or 3 people around to these events.
As far as not providing a few images for the promoter's website. Are 6 or 12 web sized images worth passing on the deal? Only you can answer that. If you knew that the event would bring in $5k would that still seem like a valid stand? $2500? $15,ooo? Only you can answer the question. I will tell you that for most companies shooting event work, providing promo shots is part and parcel to the gig. I would think that the issue would be the number of photos that you provide. Six to a dozen (IMHO) is not a big deal if you have safeguard built in to protect yourself.
Try to work it out that in exchange for X should the event generate Y you would have the right of first refusal for next year. This way should this really be a good money maker you know that at least you are next years contractor. I guess that the bottom line is that EVERYTHING is subject to negotiating and that taking a firm stand on 'no free images' will just end the deal before you have a chance to flesh things out and see what can be worked out. Free is a VERY relative term, you just have to find a more creative way of cover the cost of 'free' in a way that they don't mind paying for. |
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Jenna Tower, Photographer
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Berkeley | CA | | Posted: 1:27 PM on 09.15.09 |
->> Thank you everyone for the advice!
They only want 10 photos in exchange for their advertising of my services where I can then sell my photos to all of the other couples at the competition which ranges up to about 200. I still have more negotiating to do, but I appreciate the help! |
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Sheen Yen, Photographer
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West Lafayette | IN | USA | Posted: 6:18 PM on 09.16.09 |
->> Jenna,
Make sure you get that from them in writing, and make sure you specify the use of your 10 photos. |
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Randy Abrams, Photographer
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Bath | NY | US | Posted: 5:58 AM on 09.18.09 |
| ->> I would say that at least in exchange for their 'free' set of web images that they give you obviously photo credit, but also a small ad on the website that links to your sales website (assuming you have one). That little ad cost them nothing and could help to promote your work and drive a little traffic your way. I do this with a couple of local youth sports sites...I'll send a low res pic or two for their website and they place an ad on their site. Through Statcounter I track the referring URL's to my website so I know I'm getting some traffic from people clicking on that ad. Just a thought. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 12:30 AM on 09.19.09 |
->> Jenna,
Tell them that you would love to do it and thank them for the opportunity. Then tell them that your rate will be X dollars and that will include X images that they can use in specific limited ways.
--Mark |
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Andy Bronson, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Bellingham | WA | USA | Posted: 12:38 AM on 09.19.09 |
| ->> My Dad likes to point out, how badly others view your business. Expressed like this, "My time is worth money, yours, not! ...Get paid. Your time is worth it. Always. |
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Shelley Cryan, Photographer
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New England | CT | USA | Posted: 10:50 AM on 09.19.09 |
->> Jenna,
I very much like Mark's suggestion to quote them a price with usage. If they agree, super. It's a straightforward business deal. However, given what you've mentioned already, I'd take a wild guess and say they may come back and say they don't want to pay because they're giving you a lot of value in advertising and allowing you to sell prints to their clients, so that ought to be payment enough.
Not knowing the event or specific market, it's hard for a photographer to know if that is of much value. But the organizer probably has a very good idea of what that's worth, based on their work with photographers and other vendors in the past. So maybe they're right and you'll make a lot of money, or maybe they're bluffing to get you to work for free.
How can you figure out which scenario is most likely? As Kevin says, the organizer needs to have "some skin in the game." You could offer to cover the event for $x and provide them with images. You would also be allowed to sell to the participants. Tell them if your sales volume reaches a level you set, you'll refund the organizers money. If sales volume does not reach that level, no refund.
If the organization declines your offer, you know that they figure it won't make the sales target, and you can walk away without wondering "what if". If they agree to your offer, you can be more confident it will be profitable. As an added benefit, this way the organization will then be more willing to give you good ad placement, etc. since they want you to succeed. And if you do the job and it doesn't make your sales targets, you still get paid for providing images to them.
This structure puts the risk on the organizers, as it should be as they are the ones making the claims about the value of the event to you, and are in a better position to analyze that value.
Busines 101: If your goals are aligned with your business partners' goals, you'll both work toward them.
Shelley |
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