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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Credentials, Let's talk about it for another Minute
Chris OMeara, Photographer
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Tampa | FL | USA | Posted: 8:29 PM on 08.17.09 |
->> Sorry, Not folks trying to beat a dead horse or thread.
I'd like to introduce myself, since I appear to be the one to draw Joe Winn's ire. My name is Chris O'Meara. I've been a staff photographer for the AP in Miami and Tampa for over 23 years. I met Joe, after he stood in the aisle at a recent Tampa Bay Rays game, screaming my name for the better part of 2 innings, while I was transmitting game photos and trying to do my job. I know this, because, Angel, the first base security guard and personal friend, ran him back to his seat at the beginning of each at bat, and secondly because the two TV shooters, who wear headphones, stopped doing their jobs to see what he was screaming about. They thought he was a stalker. I finally did talk to him when I went back to shooting.
I get at least 2-3 photographers come to me each week, looking to be AP freelancers. I used to take a look at their work and tell them that if we had any jobs, I'd call. That seemd to backfire on me every Monday morning, when I'd get an irate call about giving other photographers work and not them. So, I started to take the direct root. Be honest, I look at their work and tell potential freelancers that I have 4-5 regular freelance photographers ahead of them on my list, but if they still wanted to, I'd be glad to make sure they get the contract from the Florida photo editor in Miami.
Joe, if you want to talk to me, call me, make an appointment, don't approach me when I'm working. This is my job, it's how I feed my family, and put my kids through school. Not some hobby.
I'm at the stadium anywhere from 3.5 to 4 hours before each game and stay anywhere from 1-2 hours afterwards. Come see me then. I'll be glad to talk to you.
On more of a personal note. Joe, you owe each photographer in this market an apology. You make claims that your so much better than they are. The only difference I see, Joe, is that they are doing what you dream about. I personally don't care about how much Canon equipment you have, or that "you are the same level of CPS member that I am" (I still scratch my head over that comment), and that you've also got a website. Most, if not all photographers, have pictures posted somewhere in cyberspace.
The Tampa Bay Rays photographers that you also insult, claiming someone from the AP told you they "barely knew how to use their equipment", is also a huge slap in the face to the two photographers that work for the team. I don't believe anyone from the AP told you that Joe, you'd just throw that out there to lend credibility to your ranting. Skip and Steve, may not be the best photographers in the world, but they do a pretty damn good job in my opinion. I walk by 16 x 20 copies of their work at every game. They may not be printed very well (sorry Skip), but they're pretty darn good photos. Skip also runs a very successful photo studio in Pinellas County. You might have looked up that fact before you chose to attack.
Joe, it sounds to me that you want some agency to hand a photo credential to game seven of the World Series, Stanley Cup, or even the Super Bowl, just because you have cameras and a website. It doesn't work that way. Re-read George Bridges' comments on the first thread. That's the reality of this business. Nobody handed me a job when I bought my first camera. I did grunt work. I ran, processed, sleeved film (my apologies to the younger folk, who never had that honor), and shot high school football games for $5. I felt it was a way to get my foot in the door..
I hire photographers that I know can do the job, ones I don't have to keep track of. I get into a comfort level with them and their work. I send them to shoot an assignment, and they get it done.
I don't like drama, and I darn sure don't like controversy with freelancers.
And lastly, all sports photographers in the Tampa area, may not be members of this site, but word spreads pretty quick, when you go on the attack. I had three emails and two on Facebook about your comments from friends within 10 minutes of your post.
Good luck in your future, I just hope you didn't slam the door shut, but I think I'm wrong.
Sincerely,
Chris |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:31 PM on 08.17.09 |
| ->> Thanks Chris, but to be really honest with you after reading his initial post and the ensuing counter posts he wrote this guy will NEVER get it. I've been doing this a long time and I have to say I've seen a couple of people do this (tout themselves as the greatest thing since sliced bread) and it's ALWAYS the same. They are mediocre at best and actually don't have much of a grasp of what working photojournalists do for a living. As you said, we don't just waltz in two minutes before kick-off/tip-off/face-off shoot a couple of photos wave "bye-bye" and leave. It's pretty sad that people such as Mr. Wynn are so misinformed. And it's gotten worse in the last few years with the advancements in technology, but the bottom line is when you go on a public rant like that you're DONE. We have all sent emails, posted stuff and said things we regret...but as I said I've never seen anyone reach the level of his post. I'm afraid Mr. Wynn didn't just slam the door but he locked it and threw away the key....again, thanks for chiming in. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:48 PM on 08.17.09 |
| ->> Excuse me. It is Mr. Winn. |
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Mike Carlson, Photographer
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Bayonet Point | FL | USA | Posted: 9:56 PM on 08.17.09 |
->> I’ll take a leap here and throw in something since I too feel part of this saga. In the interest of full disclosure, I am one of Chris O’Meara’s freelancers here in the Tampa area, but I’ve also been in touch with Joe for over a year through emails.
He approached me through another site, asking about some HS and college work since we’re in the same area, and then broached the subject of stringing for wires and papers. At this point, I’ll grant him that it was approached in a far more even level than in the past SS thread – something I think he realizes.
I just thought I’d jump on something Brian Blanco said last thread about the camaraderie around here. I’m sure this applies to most any other market in the country, but will use it to tie all of the above together, I hope…
One thing Joe lamented in his follow-up email was the lack of replies from the contacts he did make as a source of frustration – something that I’m sure many have experienced. Freelance of college/pro sports hasn’t been an easy egg to crack up til now, and with the increase of excellent shooters losing positions the field is even more flooded…which obviously makes the competition more fierce. Sometimes it just is about who you know, and doing a job that makes them happy.
As evidenced by Chris’s post, the job of an editor or someone in control of positions is in an even more difficult position having to reply/respond to the many queries. I’ve seen on occasion how much work Chris, as a staffer, has to deal with and even feel guilty sometimes about calling him for my own issues. While it may seem it’s all sidelines and delicious press meals, I know the increased demands put on him (and all staffers) has increased, and he’s as likely to shoot a courthouse or portrait as he is to be found doing sports – in essence working his fulltime job doing his job…and more – something I’m positive is the same for everyone in charge who has more demands and less time. As he also described, it’s sometimes about time and place…
To further illustrate Brian’s point, I’ll bore you with how I entered in the Tampa market, which shows the “connectedness” of it all. I moved to Tampa after living in Africa for six years, so I knew essentially no one. I had done plenty of wildlife and landscape work over there, but Florida/the US meant sports…I started by shooting HS sports and built a portfolio that landed me some “work” with Icon SMI. Through Icon I connected with Fleer to shoot a Bucs camp, and by coincidence met their team photographer. After a quick conversation it became apparent that they had a spot to fill for some random games that season…I was able to do that and then, doing the job right, have been doing it regularly for four seasons now.
Through Icon I was also able to shoot a few Devil Rays games – where I met Scott Audette who was shooting for Reuters, and who also happens to be the Lightning team photographer. After being the butt of his jokes for a few months and surviving he offered me the chance to work for his new venture – shooting fan photos at the hockey games. That evolved into some late game time shooting when the fan work was done, and eventually worked its way to the point where I now get to be the butt of his jokes at all the games assisting him or shooting for Reuters or AP.
And my AP connection also happened to be at the Rays. I was one of the many cold calls Chris received…and I received the “x-x guys in front” at the time. However, over the time at the Rays I was able to meet him, and show I wasn’t a complete fool, I guess, and it eventually led to an opportunity that led to an opportunity that has allowed me the opportunities I appreciate today.
So, I guess what I’m trying to long-windedly say to all who’ve followed this thread, is that there often isn’t a “secret handshake”…sometimes it’s as many have stated – patience, a willingness to do what’s needed to get that opportunity, and then making the most of the opportunity when it’s presented. On top of that, you never know when your ‘competition’ is going to be that next opportunity…(for a job or for a friend). |
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David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 11:13 PM on 08.17.09 |
->> You know I’ve noticed a trend here. The shooters who have replied to this, and the previous, thread who have reached a certain level of success and are “living the dream” so to speak, all have stories of working their way to the top through hard work. Guys like George Bridges, Mike Carlson, Chris O’Meara, Chuck Liddy etc… They started at the ground level and paid their dues to get where they’re at. And guess what? I bet if you ask them, they’ll tell you that those days of souping film and shooting the Pet-of-the-Week are some of their fondest memories. I know mine are.
I started by shooting the Citizen-of-the-Day, and random Business Section portraits for the Key West Citizen before I made the “big time” on that 3x4 mile island and progressed to shooting “big time” things like parades and craft shows. The funny thing is: nobody ever tried to steal my gig away from me back then. I wonder why? Nobody came in to under cut me or offer to shoot those business portraits or craft shows for free.
Eventually, and slowly, that led to bigger and better things and the journey makes me appreciate where I’m at today and makes me look forward to where I’ll be at ten years from now. The journey taught me how to shoot, how to write a caption, how to be a journalist, how to be a professional, how to have compassion, how to stand toe-to-toe with a rookie cop with a heavy badge at a spot news scene and so much more. The biggest thing I learned over the years: humility.
That’s what's so bothersome. I’ve noticed it for years on this board but it’s getting more commonplace the last couple of years. A young (or new) shooter spends a few thousand dollars on gear and instantly expects to leap to the big show. They appear to have a sense of entitlement that comes with owning a DSLR and a couple of lenses. As if you should be able to mail in a certain number of UPC codes from the boxes of your L series lenses and pro bodies and redeem them for a Super Bowl credential, a bi-weekly paycheck and an invitation to join the agency VII.
That’s not how it works. I’ve actually seen threads on this message board where a young shooter is ticked off because some SID had the nerve to deny them credentials. “How dare they!” “I have a big fancy camera, a SmugMug address and a lens with a monopod attachment.” “Don’t they know I’m SUPPOSED to be in there?!”
This is not just directed at Joe Winn, but at anybody and everybody who just wants credentials for the sake of having credentials and your toes on the white line on the sidelines. It’s not about credentials. It’s about having an actual assignment from a paying client who trusts your abilities and your judgment. It’s about recording the news and being a professional journalist… not a sports fan or a camera enthusiast.
For the young or new shooters: Work your way from the bottom up and trust that you'll eventually get to where you want to be. Am I where I want to be yet? Not quite yet, but I'm loving the journey and yes, like Mike Carlson, I too had to be the butt of Scott Audette's jokes when I first started in this market... and those of you who know him know that that's paying dues my friends.
-Blanco |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 11:36 PM on 08.17.09 |
->> What Brian said,
"For the young or new shooters: Work your way from the bottom up and trust that you'll eventually get to where you want to be."
I'm only 25 and my j-school profs taught me this. It takes perseverance (and loads of other stuff) to make it.
I also learned this working on camp staff with the Boy Scouts. (and yes, I'm very proud to say I'm an Eagle Scout). My best friend Gordon was our ranger for a few years and many times I saw him in his dress uniform unclogging a toilet. He was never "too good" to do it, it had to be done and he did it with a smile (sometimes not..).
I think my point goes along with Brian's, you have to walk through muck sometimes to get to the "promised land" and even then, you have to work hard. There's also going to be a place to go in anything you do.
It's a respect thing. You have to earn it and in return, you have to give it. Granted I've put my foot in my mouth a few times, but I think I know better now....
For me and many others here, photography is our passion, not bragging rights.
~ nic |
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Bob Ford, Photographer
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Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 11:39 PM on 08.17.09 |
->> Well, if you want to look for a silver lining, the train wreck of a thread seems to have cause Chris OMeara to join Sports Shooter.
Welcome Chris. |
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Nick Morris, Photographer
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San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 12:32 AM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> Hey everyone, I'll give this guy my credentials for a big game if I can have credentials to sit next to him and watch the "Fun" drain off his face when the clock suddenly hits the final few moments before deadline. That's where it doesn't matter how bitchin you and your photos are. I wanna be there when your phone is ringing every 30 seconds from your screaming editor while you try to simultaneously skim through 1000 plus photos for "The Shot" get the cut lines including spelling, figure out what the exact moment in the shot is that happened 2 quarters ago, figure out how to solve your surprise WiFi and ftp crash all the while dodging crap being thrown at you from drunk a**holes in the stands because you have a "better" seat than them (Not all fans are this way but there are some) and a 1,000 other things no less important. I gotta admit the first time I made it to a big game I wasn't as happy and jazzed about being there as I thought I would be. As a matter a fact I was praying it would end before I went fetal in front of 50,000 strangers and national tv. Just my 2 cents. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 12:41 AM on 08.18.09 |
->> Good point Bob!
Always look for the positive, even when there doesn't seem to be one.
Welcome Chris! |
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Mike Doran, Photographer
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Petaluma | CA | U.S.A. | Posted: 2:33 AM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> Great post Chris. I seem to get the same questions asked of me at motorsports events. I will in the future point them to this post. Some of them assume that because they have all the high end gear that they can have my job that I worked my butt off to get. On my desk I have at least 10 business cards from people who want me to use them on my next job as an assistant, well get in line as I would use my niece who seems to have a far better grasp as to what it takes to do what I do and is turning into a fine photographer in her own right. I did take a chance on a freelancer about nine years ago and he is now a well respected member of this community and I did this because his work spoke for itself. He does not work as a photographer full time but he puts in all the same grueling hours that I do at the tracks we both shoot for. So to those of you who are just starting out please be patient you will get where you want to go but it takes time. You cannot have it given to you on a silver platter. |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 3:09 AM on 08.18.09 |
->> It's kind of funny that image quality isn't discussed on SS like it is in other forums.
Personally, I'd prefer a shot that might be slightly out-of-focus, a tad un=sharp or underexposed a hair, but has an unbeatable facial expression, great peak action or some other unforgettable moment in it rather than a mediocre shot that is spot on with sharpness, contrast, bokeh and what-have-you.
I know my editor gets on my captions more than my technical image quality...
That's one the things that has always bugged me about people critiquing other people's jobs is that you may say you can do a better job and they don't work hard, etc., etc., but unless you have personally done that job, you don't know how hard it may be.
Taking photos track side or photo pit-side is the easier part, it's the loooong hours, very fast-paced editing, correct captioning and tight deadlines that gets hard... |
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Rich Pilling, Photographer
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New York | NY | U.S.A. | Posted: 8:36 AM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> All I have to say is........ well done Chris, and welcome to ss.com. |
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Steve Apps, Photographer
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Madison | WI | USA | Posted: 9:46 AM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> I knew Chris when I worked in the Sarasota Market in the late 80's. He is a hard working, helpful, and a great photographer. Welcome to Sports Shooter Chris. |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 11:12 AM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> Watching this train wreck (Joe Winn's personal dive off of a cliff) is now getting to be pretty damn funny, once again proving the old adage Don't S**t Where You Eat... |
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Michael Durisseau, Photographer, Assistant
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Santa Fe/Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 2:30 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Everyone,
I have seen the same things in my short time in the business, and I do have people assume that because they have the same stuff, that they can do the job. I am very blunt and explain that it's not the equipment, and I spend a lot of time doing the 'not so glamorous' stuff like captioning...and that you need to pay your dues. This thread has taught me something, too. |
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Michael Durisseau, Photographer, Assistant
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Santa Fe/Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 2:31 PM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> I meant to say, too, welcome, Mr. O'Meara! |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 2:44 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Do you want to get to the "Big Time?" Here's how to do it:
1. Start with talent.
2. Always be polite and businesslike.
3. Never give up. Never.
4. Be prepared to give up a normal family life.
Don't be surprised when you get to the "Big Time" that it looked like a lot more fun from a distance. It's damned hard work.
This is the best thread ever.
--Mark |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 2:49 PM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> I think I'll just duck under bush. I don't want to participate in this again. It was ugly the first time. I still have faith in Joe. Let's just see what he can to do to right the ship. |
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Andrew Knapik, Photographer, Assistant
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Lincoln Park | MI | USA | Posted: 3:01 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> I have a bit of a different take on all of this.
Four years ago, I started with a Digital Rebel and a kit lens that my wife bought me for our wedding. I had always wanted to shoot before that, but with the cost of film processing and learning it all before the digital age, being a full time student NOT studying photography, it was just too far out of reach.
I have since gotten better equipment - learned a ton. More importantly, I guess I am not worried about shooting Pro Sports. Sure I get the occasional chance to shoot a Detroit Red Wings game for a local hockey magazine. I even got the chance to assist fellow SS member John Reid and shoot an NFL game. I had fun, but it was a TON of work.
With all of the rules, regulations, and restrictions for pro sports, I can tell you that I have more fun with Little League baseball and Friday Night HS Football. Less pressure, less restrictions. It is not about having a credential to shoot Pro sports. It is about putting forth your best effort for the assignment that you are shooting - even if it is lawn of the week for your local daily!!
I have met some great shooters from SS and most that are not on SS. I will casually let them know that if they ever need an assistant that I am willing to bust my hump for them. I have even gone on a few "free" assisting shoots just so that I could learn more about location lighting. While I did not get paid with money (the guy did buy lunch), I gained a great deal of knowledge on working with models, clients, and other photographers. Hard work is what will get you in the door, not some secret handshake.
In fact the only secret handshake that I know of is saying hello to fellow photographers that I have not seen in a long time. We exchange a few pleasantries, then its off to work - for the both of us. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:24 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Wow, Chris is up to 43 (well deserved I might add) "informatives" on his first and only post so far.
Chris is on track to be to "informative" what Chuck is to "funny", "huh", "off topic" and "inappropriate". =) |
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Will Fournier, Photographer
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Phoenixville | PA | United States | Posted: 3:38 PM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> I wanted to thank Chris and everyone else who has contributed to this thread(s). I feel that despite how it started there has been a TON of very good information shared and it shows what an asset this site is. |
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Michael Durisseau, Photographer, Assistant
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Santa Fe/Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 3:42 PM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> +1 on Mr. Loundy's comment...those principles go for most careers... |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 3:48 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Mark Loundy, you hit it on the head.
I don't know Mr. Winn, so let me say first and foremost, the following comment isn't aimed at him. I don't even know what age Mr. Winn is.
But as a aging Baby Boomer, when talking to other aging Baby Boomers, when we talk about "young ones" as employees, one of the consistent things you hear over and over again are the following two complaints:
1) The level of expectation is absurd. They expect all of the benefits automatically.Without proving themselves.
2) Not willing to put in the time. Talking to a partner in a accounting firm in Phoenix, he lamented that he was working 70-80 hours a week, and his staff, who make more than most PJs will ever hope to make ($50-60K/year) worked a 40 hour week and then complained like hell when they were required to do more.
The demographic studies tend to bare this out. It's not all people in their 20s and 30s. But, there is a segment that expects it. I have had employees who had a high level of expectation, and others who work their butts off to make it happen.
Most photographers I know, regardless of their age, aren't like this. My friends who are wedding photographers are financially successful,but take a hit when they can't have weekends with their families. Most hardworking photo journalists know that the secret handshake is proving yourself and hard work.
That will never change - nor should it - the secret is, as Mr. Loundy states, talent and a work ethic.
The think I find ironic in all this? When us boomers were 20 and thirty somethings, the older generation complained how lazy and useless we were (not to mention dope heads draft card burners).
Point is, there have always been some within every generation that understand it's hard work that gets you where you want to go, and others who work twice as hard trying to bypass and scam the system. Sometimes having lots of money works, sometimes it doesn't.
As I have told more than one person drooling over my D3, it's still the nut behind the viewfinder that makes the difference. The camera is nothing more than a electronic paint brush. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:52 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Oh come on now! Maybe I'm not that "funny" but am I really that "off topic" ??
We've had a few hundred post about credentials and related issues in the past week or so here. Serious business of course but hopefully it hasn't made us bitter to the point where we've lost our sense of humor. |
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Osamu Chiba, Photographer
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Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 3:58 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Even in my tiny business (= one-man show), I have a list of photographers I'd call/e-mail first. And sometimes I do get calls/e-mails from people who want to work with me. I look at their stuff and give them some pointers if I feel they need to improve before working for my company. Most of them won't come back to show me more. I don't think I am as harsh as Mr. Liddy (haha), but I guess some of them are discouraged too easily. Maybe they were new to photography and thinking it should be easy to make money in photography - somewhat similar attitude Brian mentioned above, I guess. In any case, to me, no-comeback indicates they aren't serious enough.
I believe the key is, as Mark already mentioned, never give up. And everything else he said above is spot-on. (Oh wait, #1 is missing in me!)
O |
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Matt May, Photographer
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Tampa | FL | USA | Posted: 4:36 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Chris, Mike and Brian,
All well put. Hopefully all the young kids are soaking up these threads and making mental notes on what not to do.
I'm usually not a big message board poster but here's a few of my thoughts since I'm one of those miserable shooters in the Tampa market alluded to in the original post. (I'm the team photographer for the local NFL team.)
I think a lot of people don't have a good understanding about what it takes to produce good sports photography on a regular basis. I don't claim to have the answers - I've been a working photographer for 10 or 12 years and I still feel like my work and perspective is evolving all the time.
But in my humble opinion, it's much more about the mindset of the photographer than the gear they've got or what they've shot in the past. It's about the photos you make away from the action and having the consistency to create solid action photos every single day, not just once in a while. A photographer's documentary style work is as important to me as their sports action.
Most importantly it's how you handle yourself. You have to have someone you trust - especially when you are working for a team where you have great access. You can mess up what others have worked years to create by having one loose cannon on your staff.
So put in your dues and assist other photographers. Get to know the basics of photography, the business and how to conduct yourself.
Like Chris with AP, I get calls and emails all the time from people that want to come out and shoot football for a professional team. Needless to say, the spots are tight, the competition is tough and the expectations are very high. But every once in a while somebody stands out because of the diversity of skills they have and the way they handle themselves.
Mike Carlson (who posted earlier) was one of those guys who caught my attention - the right way. |
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Geoffrey Bolte, Photographer, Assistant
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Spencer/Worcester | MA | USA | Posted: 4:54 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> I will throw myself in with the young kid crowd (Matt)! I am still working my way to produce "good" sports photography on the regular. Now I get a lot of great comments from other photographers in whom I work with but I always let them know there is always room for improvement!
In reading these last few posts on credentials it really gives me a concrete opinion on how to do things the "right way." And with this it is also showing me that I have been following it all along! I know there is a time to contact others for help or potential work, and while that person is owning his keep is not the time.
Thank you Chris, Mike, Brian and Matt as well as the many others I know there are a lot of stand up guys(and gals) here at SportsShooter, which for example for me started before day one when Brad called and gave me a one on one of my "Top 10" application!
I enjoy SportsShooter for all its informative and awesome photos and will continue to take everything in like a sponge and work on perfecting my craft!
Oh and Chris welcome to the team! |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:07 PM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> Harsh? Me? Nope, just call 'em as I see 'em. Sometimes you just can't sugar coat stuff. This was certainly one of those occasions. Over the years I've come to realize the "harsher" someone was when I was criticized the better off I was down the road. Sometimes you have to get kicked in the ass. This thread has been great. I'm speaking to a large group of college journalists tomorrow and I'm going to "steal" some of this stuff. Oh, and I won't be "harsh" on the students. 8) |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 5:48 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> "Over the years I've come to realize the "harsher" someone was when I was criticized the better off I was down the road."
I'll second this statement. The one person who I happily call a mentor and responsible for me, a guy my high school journalism teacher said would never work for a newspaper, being in the media photo business today was harsher than harsh. The slap Anthony DiNozzo gets from Special Agent Jethro Gibbs on NCIS brings back memories as the one photographer who took an real interest in helping me improve would dish them out when I deserved them. (I honestly miss those days, despite being a poor college student who spent every dime on camera gear instead of beer thirty years ago.) His critique taught me the value of having thick skin and not throwing in the towel too soon. |
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Mark J. Terrill, Photographer
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Simi Valley | CA | USA | Posted: 7:28 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> I hate to pile on, especially after what my esteemed colleague Chris O'Meara and Mark Loundy said so well, but there is one point that Mr. Winn made that I haven't seen addressed.
He said "I know oh so well that this is a "who you know" business. I just don't know anyone apparently." I've heard this a few times before and it's a total crock and a cop out. I can't think of anyone who got into this business and is successful because of someone they knew. I'm sure there are exceptions, but by and large this isn't a "who you know business." It's a work your ass off to prove yourself business. As in any business, knowing people always helps. In this business, it's most helpful after you're established.
I started at 15 or 16 and the extent of help that I got was a phone number for the AP that was given to me by my brother, who worked as a freelancer for the L.A. Times at the time, after I shot something that they might have been interested in. He knew no one at the AP. I continued offering them pictures for a few years until they had enough faith to call me with assignments. From then on it was fifteen years of hard work for the AP doing all kinds of assignments, souping film (I once did 300 rolls at a Super Bowl and have permanently pruned fingers to prove it), making prints, running film and whatever else they needed me to do. No matter how lowly the job, I did my best and took pride in it in the hope that it would someday lead to a staff job. I never thought it would take fifteen years, but I never gave up.
The idea that there is some secret handshake or "special camera settings" that get you into this business and make you successful is fairly common. I see this attitude a lot at some of the workshops where I teach. It's hard to blame people. I mean who wouldn't want to take an easy route? Unfortunately the hard truth is that there isn't one. It's nothing more than talent, hard work and perseverance. |
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Michael Durisseau, Photographer, Assistant
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Santa Fe/Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 7:44 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Mr. Liddy, Mr. Terrill, Mr. May, Mr. Fischer
Again, you guys are speaking my mind for me! Mr. Fischer, I have seen similar issues when looking for assistance on the editorial side of the newspaper. The way I see it, management needs to set the example for the people that work with them. I tend to expect as much of the people I work with as I do of myself.
Mr. Liddy, I remember my HS journalism teacher being what some would call 'harsh' when I was taking classes, especially on the photography side, but it's him I think of when I realize where I am now, and I get comments on my work. I wish I could find him to thank him! |
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Hal Smith, Photographer
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Sedalia | MO | USA | Posted: 8:42 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> My single question:What is the "Big Time"?
I've worked at smaller papers nearly my entire career, but in the same light; I've covered major breaking news, national collegiate sports and have been able to get up in morning and occasionally see one of my images in one of two regional metro newspapers in my area.
As a photojournalist the "Big Time" means very little. Last year, the Pulitzer Prize for feature photography was won by photographer working at a small daily in New Hampshire.
The best shooters I've worked with haven't worked at Major metros or even major magazines, most work just down the road or even the same office as myself.
There are enough egos in this profession to fuel a rocket to the Jupiter, and the worst egos are usually from those who's work isn't anywhere close to what I consider "Big Time" level.
Credentials; who cares. If I'm working a game, I'm not there to have a powwow with my fellow colleagues, I'm there to work. I have deadlines to meet.
I didn't join this website 6-years-ago read the bitchings of self-absorbed egomanics who are upset about their lot in life. I joined this site for the fellowship of like-minded photographers. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 9:01 PM on 08.18.09 |
| ->> Bingo Hal. There's no such thing as the "big time" That's the point. That's why I had it in quotes. For me, the "big time" is having enough paying gigs to make a respectable living and enjoy what I'm doing for a living... that's "the big time". |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 10:05 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> What is the Big Time??
Who Knows???
I have never worked full time for a newspaper!!
In 1987 I shot freelance for the Greenwich Times in Greenwich, CT.
My job was to shoot the Greenwich Scene, one shot per day that described the city for the Editorial page. I got paid all of $65 per day for this. This is the job nobody wanted, but I loved it! It was great!! Then come back & "Soup" my T-Max 400 and make 3 or 4 good prints.
After that I went to the world of Commercial Photography, which is what I went to Brooks for, I have worked for Corporations from a 4 person Mom & Pop outfit to Global Corporations. And I have done that since then.
Again, what is the Big time?
Who Cares???
If you love what you do and enjoy doing it, day in and day out, you have hit the BIG TIME!!
But OTOH, if you dread waking up in the morning and have every single part of what you do for a living, you ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! You are just miserable. And trust me, it shows, in your work and in your relationships with others, the ones you work with and the ones you work for.
IMHO, I think I have hit the Big Time, I love what I do and the people I work for, what else could anyone want??
Y |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 11:27 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> Having lunch this afternoon with good friend Rod Mar...it made me remember a great thing he said at one of the Sports Shooter Workshop & Luaus:
"Make the Big Time where you are."
'Nuff Said! |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 11:41 PM on 08.18.09 |
->> "Most importantly it's how you handle yourself. You have to have someone you trust - especially when you are working for a team where you have great access. You can mess up what others have worked years to create by having one loose cannon on your staff."
Matt May makes an excellent point. In situations where you have special access, it is paramount to know how to behave -- perhaps even more than how to shoot. If you screw-up the behavior part, you not only mess-up an assignment, you make it difficult for other photographers to gain access.
The Lindbergh kidnapping trial is an example of badly behaving photographers causing courtrooms to be almost completely off-limits to shooter for two generations. We're still struggling with courtroom access issues today.
--Mark |
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Eugenio Cebollero, Photographer
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Kernersville | NC | US | Posted: 8:34 AM on 08.19.09 |
->> I personally think the book "How to Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carnegie should be added to the SS Bookshelf as a read for anyone entering ANY career, especially one as competitive as photography. It should be right up there with Harrington's "Best Business Practices..." and has advice that is tried and true since 1936. Using morals instilled by my father, common sense, a solid work ethic, patience, and good reads such as this book got me my first credential. A used paperback copy can be had starting at $.89 on Amazon and is as valuable as any photography book on the market.
My glamorous tale of shooting my very first pro event ended when I came out to where my car was parked to find a busted tail light and a new dent in the rear quarter panel of my car. |
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Les Bentley, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 10:01 AM on 08.19.09 |
| ->> I have shot next to Chris at Tampa Bay Bucs games, and sat next to him on the floor at Orlando Magic games many times. I guess it’s easy to assume when you’re in the stands watching photographers shooting a couple of innings, or quarters it makes your inflated ego think you can do their job. Joe Winn has never seen Chris, or the others, show up two, or three hours before game time to hang remotes, set up equipment, only to have problems arise to start their night going downhill. I guess he missed watching Chris shoot from an 8:00 start to 8:30 hoping to get some action, then pulling cards, and transmitting until midway through the fourth quarter before he could shoot another frame. I guess he also missed Chris sitting in the media room over two hours after the game had ended still transmitting wanting to go home. Sorry Joe, I guess you missed all that part of the glamour. So until then, shut up, and watch and learn from these people. The best lessons I ever learned was watching how people like Chris, Gary Bogdon, Scott Audette, Chris Livingston, and Fernando Medina, all did their jobs. I would ask questions occasionally, but I learned more just keeping my mouth shut, and watching. These people are not there to be an HR dept for you to complain too. If you want to shoot for AP, or a team, fine do it. Talk to their front office. However, after talking to a former team photographer for the Tampa Bay Bucs, you won’t want the job unless you enjoy long hours, no resales, little pay, and people coming from every direction wanting something from you, and complaining if you can’t deliver. Before you flame someone hoping for their job, try understanding the situation they work under. The group of photographers working the Orlando, Tampa areas is pretty small, and most have been shooting around here for years. Joe, if you want a “credential”, I’ll give you a stack. After two hours the glamour wears off. |
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Steven Ickes, Photographer
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Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 3:14 PM on 08.19.09 |
->> I guess I'm just continually confused by this sense of entitlement that seems so pervasive these days. Actually, I don't have a problem with the entitlement itself, I have a problem with the belief that it must be simply handed to you. If you feel something belongs to you then work your ass off to get it.
I cannot recall at any point in time while getting my freelance business up and running, ever complaining that someone wouldn't give me a credential or even give me an opportunity. I looked for the opportunities and then made sure I was prepared when they presented themselves. No one owed me anything; It was entirely up to me. Last and not least of all, any chance that I've earned to cover the "big events" has not been done by belittling colleagues. Simply declaring that my stuff is better than someone else's does not make it so.
What happens when Joe finally gets his big break and then gets screamed at because all his images are crap. Remember Joe: when you're shooting for someone else it doesn't matter how awesome YOU think you are. |
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JC Ridley, Photographer
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Coral Springs | FL | US | Posted: 5:54 PM on 08.19.09 |
->> "I guess I'm just continually confused by this sense of entitlement that seems so pervasive these days. Actually, I don't have a problem with the entitlement itself, I have a problem with the belief that it must be simply handed to you. If you feel something belongs to you then work your ass off to get it."
I'm having this problem with my son right now, who doesn't understand why I won't just hand him the title to the car. Many of his friends have cars that were just handed to them. Many of those cars are nicer than the one I drive. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 12:36 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> really? i mean, is this serious?
i'm having a difficult time deciding who is the bigger goof- the original poster (90 posts ago), or any of the many "don's" of photojournalism that have responded.
responding to the original- whatever the hell it was (question, rant, turrets episode), is like teasing the fat kid. uh, yeah. we can see that he's fat. we could see that even without you pointing, laughing and name-calling.
all of this, coming from big-time, big-league photographers who have become picture-taking authorities because their the one's the newspaper kept. amusing that the group of big names are being assholes to the original asshole, who was being an asshole while begging to be part of a bigger-time group of assholes.
it's always the same group of names in these information-free threads that step up to throw laser-accurate darts at motionless cows from five feet. remember the "who wants to kill the sheriff" scene in blazing saddles...(modified for my purposes) "i've got a barrel here...who wants to shoot some fish? i do, i do!!
winn: the newspaper staffers here are treating you like an asshole because you waved the asshole flag, and asked to be mauled. that said, i wouldn't be too worried about this thread burning all hope of a photography career. the eagles just hired a guy who served time for fighting dogs.
funny that while all 90+ posts together are kind of interesting, no single post is at all interesting. i am dumber for having read this thread. i would appreciate an apology from someone. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:20 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> Mike,
FWIW, I don't work for a Newspaper, nor do I ever want to do that ever again!!
It's true, Joe Winn opened a huge can of worms, and paid for it. He used the wrong wording to express his point.
But calling others around here names isn't the solution either.
(For clarification, from now on, when I say "YOU" I don't mean You Mike, but a General "YOU")
Even though I shoot Sporting events for Corporations, it is definitely not my biggest source of Income. I do it because I like it!! I actually make more money doing the Catalog stuff in the studio.
Glamour?? Prestige?? I don't do it for that either.... I do it because I like it!! When I get to any event, it shows that I like what I'm doing!! My attitude shows it!! You have to admit it, but some out there, and yes, I have met some during my 24 years in the business, when I see them at an event, their attitude is that they are not happy at what they're doing or they seem bored and miserable. If you don't like what you're doing and you are bored and believe me, it shows... WHY DO IT?? Walk away!! Sitting there and complaining that you have a boring assignment doesn't say much about your work ethic. Believe it or not, there's tons of young and eager guys out there willing to do what you consider boring.
The day that I'm bored or I don't like what I'm doing, I'll walk away!! I'll find something else to do. Those young and eager shooters are there, on the sideline waiting for me to get out of their way.
Y |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:08 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> Mr. Anzaldi, I'll apologize to you. I'm so sorry you hate your life so much that you have to waste your time on this site. Again, you seem to be just another wannabee who wants to attack those of us who you call a "bigger-time group of assholes", of course, I'm just assuming you're referring to me since I am a full time paid staffer. I have never thought of myself as a photographic "don" but I feel honored if YOU consider me one. Maybe you and Mr. Winn should teach a course in "How NOT to win friends and influence people."
And Yamil, what are you talking about? |
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David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 10:37 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> "to throw laser-accurate darts at motionless cows from five feet"
Holy Crap! Now even cow tipping has gone digital!!!!! |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:14 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> Mr. Anzaldi,
Like Chuck, I'm sorry you found nothing interesting in this thread and wonder why you kept reading past the first two or three posts if you did not like where it was going. That's what I do when I find a topic not of importance to me or find it to be a bunch of nonsense.
But, please, take a look at my original post and please, please tell me where I threw a dart. I thought I offered constructive ideas for why the original poster was frustrated and offered some suggestions to how he can get to his goal. Breaking into this business is hard and can be a daunting and frustrating task, but I'm all for new talent coming into the photo pool to fulfill their dreams or to push us all a bit harder.
And for your statement: "all of this, coming from big-time, big-league photographers who have become picture-taking authorities because their the one's the newspaper kept."
I can take only five or six names from this thread and add up more than 150 years of photojournalism experience combined -- hardly people who are merely the lucky survivors.
I could pick your post to shreds for the plentiful errors as grammar is one of my biggest gripes with photographers -- how can you be taken seriously in a newsroom or on a public message board if you don't know the difference between their and they are? But I'll let that go and not make personal attacks.
Or maybe your post was an attempt to just stir up the flames a bit more. If so, congratulations, you succeeded. |
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Yamil Sued, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Peoria | AZ | USA | Posted: 11:25 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> Chuck,
I was referring to Mr Anzaldi's post.
I don't agree with his post, but........
I have encountered some shooters, Staffers, the ones Mr Wynn referred to as living the dream. But these folks sounded miserable, instead of sounding excited about what they were doing, they sounded like they would rather be elsewhere and doing something else. This is what baffles me. If these folks are living the good life and in the Big Time, why do they sound so miserable??? They sound not happy, they complain about their assignments, but in the same breath they tell those that want to do what they are doing and can't wait to do it, that they have to wait and pay their dues first, which BTW, I agree everyone should pay their dues, but for how long?? I paid my dues, I assisted several Commercial Shooters in Dallas in the mid 80's
My Point, that might have gotten lost was...... if you don't like what you're doing, DON'T DO IT!!
BTW, Chuck, I have never read any complaints about your job coming from you, but I bet you have read posts about others... Me personally, I love every minute of what I do, I deal with weather, airports, Travel, Bad Food and very stupid people that prevent me from doing my job correctly, but I still love what I do and I want to do it for as long as I can. But at the same time, when I see a young aspiring shooters interested in what I'm doing, I'm very approachable, I talk to them, I give him advise and share some of my stories and experiences. I feel good about it and that's all that counts, at least for me. I'm not afraid of the competition and I'm not about to throw a young aspiring shooter under the bus to make me feel better or superior!!
Y |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 11:25 AM on 08.20.09 |
| ->> It looks like it's time for a group hug. |
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Eric Francis, Photographer
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Omaha | NE | United States | Posted: 11:42 AM on 08.20.09 |
| ->> Mike A. do you need a bigger shovel? I Mr. Winn has one he's probably more than happy to part with. |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 11:49 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> --But these folks sounded miserable, instead of sounding excited about what they were doing, they sounded like they would rather be elsewhere and doing something else. This is what baffles me. If these folks are living the good life and in the Big Time, why do they sound so miserable???---
Yamil,
They sound miserable but they are not. It's like almost anything you do in life. You do it a couple times and its exciting, you do it a few more times and it gets to be routine. You do it a few hundred times and you have the right to complain about it.
They may sound miserable but it's human nature to complain and I think if you asked anyone who is complaining they would admit they are there because they love it. Plus they don't want anyone to know how much fun it really is. The fans we sit in front of at basketball games think we are lucky to be there and we are, but they also can have a beer during the game and can ignore the action. They aren't under the pressure to get an image filed for the sports front before 7:45 on a game that starts at 7:35. We are and thrive on that deadline despite our complaints that the editors back at the office don't understand that nothing may happen in those 10 minutes which may equate to only three minutes of actual game action.
Things have gotten harder over the years. You have to get to games three hours in advance because parking is harder, more restrictions on where you can put remotes, more people shooting on the sidelines so you have to get there early to claim your spot etc. But the fact of the matter is that folks do it because they love it and and they would not want to be doing anything else.
I can look at a lot of photographers and without talking to them can tell you they will probably complain but actually love the challenges they face. There are a few photographers who have photographed every Super Bowl. They remember when the sidelines were empty and now they are standing shoulder-to-shoulder battling to get the same shot a ton of other folks. Sure they are older and it ain't easy to do, but they keep going back because they find the Super Bowl a lot of fun and a challenge to make something different from the year before, or the 40 years before that as well.
I'm depressed about the state of the news industry where I have earned money and made my life for 25 years now. But when I think of looking to do something for the next 20+ years of my life I can't think of what I would enjoy doing. Sure I complain about parking at stadiums, pre-game food, fans who yell at you or pester you with questions, spending five days in weather 20 degrees or less setting up for the Inauguration (when I didn't even go to make a shot but set the infrastructure for 10 photographers who did) -- but you know what? I love it. I enjoy the challenge and despite all the things I may complain about, at the end of the day when the event is done and my team (or myself when working solo) made some great shots and our clients are happy then there is no rush to beat it. |
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Mike Anzaldi, Photographer
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Oak Park | IL | USA | Posted: 11:50 AM on 08.20.09 |
->> as is said in my post, the thread as a whole, was indeed interesting.
misuse of the word their?
oh contraire, george. how can 'you' be taken seriously in your critique of photographers- and their opinions- if your biggest gripe with them is grammar?
"Or maybe your post was an attempt to just stir up the flames a bit more. If so, congratulations, you succeeded."
my post was no such attempt. in 12 or so hours, you and liddy are the only ones moved to the point of personal attack. my post mentions no persons. but obviously, the shoe must fit. you know why i know that? you're telling me now. same with liddy. did i know liddy was a full-time staffer? nope. never heard of him, with the exception of these message boards. so that means liddy is best known to me, not as a photographer, but as a message board smart-mouth.
good work!
"I could pick your post to shreds for the plentiful errors as grammar is one of my biggest gripes with photographers -- how can you be taken seriously in a newsroom or on a public message board if you don't know the difference between their and they are? But I'll let that go and not make personal attacks."
idiot.
you guys are both celebrities in your own minds.
i posted here because i'm on vacation. just another time-wasting activity in a string of several time-wasting activities.
let me guess, you guys are at your newspaper jobs, not making interesting pictures, but responding to internet message boards?
good work! |
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