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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Credentials...let's talk about it for one more minute
Joe Winn, Photographer
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Tampa | Fl | USA | Posted: 5:51 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> I was going to make this a reply to Chris but I figured I should make a new thread in case I get flamed to hell it's not Chris' fault.
Unfortunately for me, the unwillingness of my fellow professional to share information has made it very difficult for me to break into the "I've got credentials" crowd.
I have seen the photo quality of several credentialed PJs in my area and I find them lacking. I am having a very difficult time getting face time with anyone who might take a look at my stuff. I've talked to and given my card to the AP guy in my area at a baseball game...he was working and I had to talk to him between innings. He kinda put it in his pocket and said there are 5 guys ahead of me.
Newspapers aren't hiring but I know of a few newspaper shooters in my area who have jobs but whose work is definitely below my level.
I'm just having a very hard time with getting someone to actually take a look at my work to see what I can do. The official photog for our pro baseball team can barely operate his equipment...and a few other guys who shoot AP wonder how he even got his job.
I know oh so well that this is a "who you know" business. I just don't know anyone apparently. When I send emails or try to call people I get no replies and no call backs. It's crazy.
I just want a chance but nothing is happening.
Any ideas? |
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Michael Proebsting, Photographer
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Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 6:27 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Do you want to make money, or do you just want to shoot professional sports?
If you want to make money, then you won't shoot professional sports. Between image usage fees that are less than they were 20 years ago, to "wire services" that think nothing of giving images away for free it's not realistic to think you can make a living doing this via professional sports.
If you want to shoot professional sports then it is probably a case of right time/right place because this "industry" is over saturated with people who will shoot for free, shoot for credentials ect.
In theory, the best shooters would be in demand and would be paid accordingly. In reality, quality of images is way further down the totem pole and "How cheap can we get the image" is the first priority.
The last place I shot professional sports for has not sent out a check to any of their photographers for over a year, and most of the guys (not me) still shoot for them because they want to. |
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 6:47 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Are these the people you're expecting to show you the ropes...
"The official photog for our pro baseball team can barely operate his equipment...and a few other guys who shoot AP wonder how he even got his job. "
How's that workin out for you??
-- Mike |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 6:50 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Readers could probably figure out who you're throwing stones at based on your profile. Coming to a public forum to beat your chest that you're better than XYZ photographer is foolish. Tell your friends, but don't tell us. We don't care about your opinion of your own photos. We'll come to our own conclusions. I don't give a rats about the guy shoot pro baseball. A sorry photographer in Florida isn't worth my notice compared to a good one.
You don't know the intangibles of why someone has a staff job. Photographers are often hired because of their skills in something other than sports such as portraits or enterprise photography.
Marketing yourself to another photographer is stupid. Photographers don't buy too many photos, they make them and sell them to their clients. Find ways to market yourself to clients not to a competing photographer.
For starters, do you have a website? I don't see a link on your profile. I did find it with Google, but I shouldn't have to use Google to find it.
Your photos are pretty good in my opinion. In fact, they look pretty snappy. You're colors are over saturated, but mostly it looks really good.
Once I'm on your site, the about us doesn't tell me about you. Too many of the links on your site promote Smugmug. I should not see anything that isn't related to you. Note that your services link is broken. Your contact us link is broken. The information on your products page is so large it's offensive. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 6:52 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> So what is it your asking Joe ? It doesn't sound like your looking to get credentials, rather it seems you think you could do a better job than some other folks in your area and I assume you believe you should have their position ?
Maybe that is the case, but what does one thing have to do with another ? How does having credentials, as a freelancer I take it, translate to your replacing these people ? On the sidelines during a game is no doubt the worst possible time/place to try to approach people for employment or job leads because they are busy working.
I don't think credentials for an event are what your looking for, but rather you want networking and employment leads. You don't want to just get into a game to shoot, you want to be getting paid as a staffer to go to that game and shoot because you feel your better than the guy who's currently got the job.
I might add as well, that perhaps the "unwillingness" of the professionals in your area has to do with the fact your calling people out, such as saying the team photog for your pro baseball teams barely even knows how to operate his equipment ? Or the quality of the newspaper shooters in your area is lacking.
If I went up and told someone I was better than them and then asked them to assist me in finding a way to take their job I dont think they'd be very helpful. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 6:54 PM on 08.14.09 |
| ->> I'd say the best first step is to start out by insulting the shooters in your market. That always seems to work. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 6:56 PM on 08.14.09 |
| ->> Oh wait, I'm a shooter in your market... hmmph. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 7:21 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Joe,
For the purposes of clarification, please state exactly what you goal you wish to attain. Based on your OP, I get two different reads. So before responding, I need to know which guy are you: Are you like hundreds of thousands folks with an dslr and some lenses, thinks it is cool to be on the sidelines shooting pro or college sports - don't be afraid to admit it. The first half of your post leans toward this.
Or, where the second half of your post tilts slightly, someone who wants to honestly work, in some capacity - full-time, part-time or freelance, for a sports publication and willing to work for to get there? Which truthfully, best describes your goal?
Finally, are you looking for an honest, no B.S. answer or a sugarcoated version? What I'm looking for is, can you hand the truth? I know, a lousy Jack Nicholson impersonation. |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 7:52 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> That does it! I'm buying a sturdy neck brace on eBay. I'm soooo done shaking my head till my neck is sprained. Nope no more, from here on out I'll only read the board while wearing a 'Philly' collar and splash guard (too many keyboards getting coffee spritzes).
Who was it that said "better to be thought a fool than to speak and be known a......." Oh ya it was a few SS admins having beers and reading this crap.
Joe what is there to share. There really are NO SECRET HANDSHAKES. If this post is in the least little way indicative of how you approach people to get work you could have the skillz of Cartier, Adams (Ansel or Eddie your choice) and the entire staff at SI and won't ever get anywhere.
I'm going to shut up now and take the wife out for a very late dinner, I'm feel one heck of an "ugly" rant building up.
Peace
~e |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 8:42 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Joe,
I'll refrain from commenting where others have but address one particular point of your post: you talking to the local AP photog and not hearing anything else.
What he said is true. He probably has 4 or 5 or 6 folks he will call before he calls anyone new. Why? Because he knows they know what to do when he calls them. No explaining, no questions. He calls and says "I need you to shoot the game Tuesday night" and he knows they will be there, get the images needed and know how to transmit them.
Frankly, every news organization has a list like that. It's hard to get your foot in the door but you have to be patient and persistent without being annoying. Next time you see the AP staffer at a game or other event introduce yourself again and ask if there is a time when things will be slow that he can actually meet with you. At that time show your work and let them know you will be available to shoot anything. I mean anything. Don't expect your first call to be a MLB game or NFL game. It will be a boring press conference. Get a few assignments like that under your belt and you may start to move up in the rotation. PROVE you are better than his other stringers by doing good work -- or he may think you are not up to snuff and not call. Those are the breaks.
Years ago I got my start freelancing by offering to help out in any way with a regional basketball tournament in my area. The local AP staffer had me dunking film for two days at up to 30 rolls at a time. I got to shoot exactly one half of a game of the six games held at that arena over two days. I got exactly one photo on the wire.
But later he called me to shoot some regular assignments. You know how I got a break? He was out of town and the two freelancers ahead of me happened to be busy or out of town as well. I proved I could handle some assignments so I got a few more. And then some more.
Then when I moved to the DC area, even though I had been freelancing for wire services for 6+ years all that got me was a foot in the door. Again, I was at the bottom of the call order and had to prove myself with ho hum assignments to prove my worth. I was able to do that and worked my way up to covering pro sports and even the White House for news organizations and that led to my staff job. Heck, the reason I got one of my first freelance gigs with a DC-based wire service was because the other freelancer that was scheduled to do it had a sick kid so they figured they would give me a shot and I was free on short notice. I'm now the deputy director of photography at that place.
So, after all that writing, I'll sum up by saying I'm not surprised at the response you got from a staffer. Frankly it's the response I give anyone who cold calls me. There is a glut of photographers out there right now and it's hard to get a break but you have to be persistent and wait for that opportunity. When it comes along don't blow it because you won't get many more chances.
PS: Brian is in your market and a talented journalist. My company misses him. |
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Joe Winn, Photographer
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Tampa | Fl | USA | Posted: 8:58 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> This is exactly what I figured would happen.
A bunch of holier than thou talk and bashing of my character...or lack thereof.
I know for certain that the people about whom I speak are not members here.
I am just trying to establish the fact that I have witnessed the shooting skills and work of a few people who have jobs that I would like to do. I have had zero luck getting higher-ups to at least "give me a shot" or look at some of my shots.
Do I think I am the best? Of course not. But do I think I am better than some (not all) of the stuff I see in my area? Of course I do.
I am posting this here because I thought my "peers" might have some insight as to how they got where they are now (if they have jobs shooting for a living).
I am trying to support my family (wife and 2 kids) with full-time photography. I shoot every single weekend about 10 hours both days (and process orders and upload the next couple of days)...I just finished shooting a 3 week baseball tournament which consisted of 5 days of solid shooting for 8 hours each day. I KNOW how to work hard. I have that down pat. But I have seen that it is often WHO you know and not always WHAT you know. I don't make the kind of contacts doing youth sports that I need to get a job shooting more often. So I am trying to find out who these contacts are.
I see many of you are so very quick to jump on my character because I posted this and bashed a photog or two along the way. They are not members here, they don't know me and I didn't post names. "They" are just "They"...that's it. I'm not sure how you guys would try to convey the fact that you thought your performance was better than someone else and you wished you had their job (or something similar) but you just can't get the opportunity to meet someone?
I consider this forum a place where I can try to get information from those who do what I do.
I'm sure 99% of you speak differently behind closed doors than you do out in the public eye. I consider this forum "behind closed doors" talk.
So please don't bash me any further. You don't know me. I speak to you guys like we're in a bar having a beer not like you're interviewing with me or vice versa.
Joe |
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Joe Winn, Photographer
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Tampa | Fl | USA | Posted: 9:04 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> I posted while George posted...exactly what I was looking for George...thank you.
I truncated my talk with the AP guy...he was nice and took my card. We spoke briefly, said that honestly there was a few guys in front of me. I was polite and said I understood of course but if there is ever anything he needs to please call me. He said no problem.
I knew he was busy, I didn't bother him...I treat people how I want to be treated. I waited until he wasn't behind the camera or laptop.
Nice guy, but I still haven't been able to actually contact him outside of that situation. |
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Derek Montgomery, Photographer
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Duluth | MN | USA | Posted: 9:12 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Joe,
One of the problems with the attitude that those you criticize aren't members here is that for every member on this site, there are probably 4 or 5 photographers that are lurkers. I followed these forums, which are open for anyone to see, for about a year before I joined. There have been actual debates here about whether Sportsshooter.com has more value now than does the NPPA.
What I'm trying to say is that just because someone isn't a member here doesn't mean they don't visit this site on a daily basis. This web site is seen by a lot of people. And all it takes is one friend of one of those people you mentioned to tell the other and then you are screwed.
I'm just saying try to be careful of what you say on here because this site gets around to other photographers. Google "Eric Swist" and see what comes up as the third result.
George gave some great advice. I'd give that a read or three and move forward. Good luck. |
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 9:24 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> You don't get it Joe...
Perhaps those of whom you spoke are not members here... but many team photographers are members...as are AP shooters. You'd don't think this is gona get back to those in question?
it's doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out who you are talking about....
You called the team shooter incompetent and betrayed the trust of a few AP shooters.
This ain't two guys havin a beer in a bar.... you posted this on the internet in a public forum.... there is nothing behind closed doors here. You need a membership to post... not to read... the doors are wide open my friend.
I'm not questioning your character... you're right... I don't know you... but I sure do question your judgement.
In my opinion... you just dug the hole a little deeper
-- Mike |
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Joe Winn, Photographer
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Tampa | Fl | USA | Posted: 9:27 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> I agree with you...but "They" still don't know who I'm talking about. And they've never met me before.
Anyways...that's what I get for posting on a public forum. 75% flames and 25% usable info.
I appreciate the info from those who know I wasn't trying to be offensive...I didn't really think of the BEST way to say I'm a pretty ok photographer, better than some I have seen in my area, and how the hell do I get a job doing what I love when I can't get my foot in the door? |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 9:41 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> George: Thank you, that's a very kind thing to say, and I miss working with you guys too.
Joe: How hard is it to decipher the code- "The official photog for our pro baseball team..." ? We all can see that you live in Tampa.
By the way, to set the record straight, the guy you are talking about is a super nice guy who is a very strong shooter, and is well liked and respected by those of us who cover the games with him. He also has the ability to get people credentials. Oh, and for the record the MLB game (of the team you're referring to) isn't even over and I've already received 2 phone calls an email and 2 Facebook messages about your post... all from non-members. Two of whom are shooting the game as I type this. |
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Alex Menendez, Photographer
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Orlando | FL | USA | Posted: 9:48 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Tampa has a pro baseball team?
:) |
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Scott A. Schneider, Photographer
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Minneapolis | MN | USA | Posted: 9:54 PM on 08.14.09 |
| ->> Joe, the first rule of holes: when you're in one, stop digging. |
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 10:05 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Mr. Winn...
One more... and I promise this is my last...
If you'll look at the front page here at SS.com... you'll notice a story on photographing that " Perfect Game"... it was photographed and written by Ron Vesely of the Chicago White Sox.... he's them team photographer.
If you read down a few graphs... to the display photo in question....Ron's cover of SI... you'll see who CWS played that day...
It's a very small world...and we should choose our words carefully
Good Luck
-- Mike |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 10:15 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Joe,
It's a fine line between self confidence and conceit. Putting down others efforts and expertise is not going to get you where you want to go.
In fact, it tells me a lot about you - and what it says isn't going to make you happy.
So, let's assume that tomorrow, you get your chance. You replace the MLB shooter. You get the job shooting the Bucs home and away games. In short, you get it all.
Simple question: Then what?
Are you happy from there on out? Is your photographic life fufilled?
Well?
And let's say a year from now, you lose those positions.
Are you less of a photographer? Are you less fufilled? Are you suddenly no long validated?
You lament that it's obviously "who you know". You know what,Joe - you're absolutely right. People do business (and that's what this is ultimately - business) with people that they know - and trust.
Do you think your behavior on here - which I suspect has also been projected to people you're trying to impress in Tampa - helps your situation?
Let me tell you a little secret. In my business life, I no longer hired those that consider themselves "stars". Sometimes they DO have the skill set that makes them impressive. BUT their behavior makes them such a PITA that I won't hire them. And neither will most people I know when faced with a similar situation. Better to hire someone who potentially could have a little less skill, but is a better team player.
In other words, the work probably isn't the problem here.
So how do you "break in"? Build a relationship - and that takes time - months or years. Learn what they need that they don't currently have. Shoot the sports that no one else wants to shoot. Prove to them you're a team player. Prove to them you're there to help them succeed in their positions of authority.
Prove to them you're a professional - and not a head case. Once you do that, then - maybe - you'll get your chance.
Funny thing is, by the time you do it, you may find it wasn't quite as important as you thought it was.
If you've read this far, ask yourself one more question: WHAT is this really all about? My guess is by shooting pro sports you'll validate to yourself that you're good.
If that's the case, you need to sit down and really think about things.
I gave up shooting NFL 3 seasons ago. Couldn't make enough money. I didn't need the validation - I needed $$. I work just as hard on local high school stuff as I did shooting NFL. If you search the archives on here you'll see plenty of shooters who miss shooting on Friday nights. It's more fun and just as "validating". Think about what's really going on inside you, Joe. Know thyself.
Regards,
Michael |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 10:35 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> Joe you said "I am posting this here because I thought my "peers" might have some insight as to how they got where they are now (if they have jobs shooting for a living)."
Well is that mystery team photographer for the pro baseball team in Tampa who "can barely operate his equipment" not your peer ?
Are the several credentialed photographers who's work you've seen and deemed to be "lacking" not your peers ?
Are the few newspaper shooters in your area that have jobs but who's work is "defiantly below yours" not your peers ?
Seeing how you treat your peers, and how it sounds like you really believe you deserve to take their jobs, do you really expect people to help you ?
Why not just walk up to someone at the next game you cover and tell them you've seen their work, you think its garbage, and give them your card and ask them to please pass it onto their editor in hopes he might like to replace them with you.
On the bright side, at least you've made a name for yourself in the Tampa sports community today. I bet all weekend people are going to be talking about Joe Winn. |
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Jeffrey Furticella, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | US | Posted: 10:47 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> When can there be a thread permanently affixed to the Sportsshooter home page titled "How to NOT get a credential?" that serves as an archive of these flashes of brilliance?
- furt |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 11:31 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> I know for certain that the people about whom I speak are not members here.
Wow. This is wrong is so many ways. |
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Mark Loundy, Photo Editor
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San Jose | CA | USA | Posted: 11:36 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> There are also quite a few editors and other people who hire photographers lurking here. There are many ways to step on your, uh, foot here without even knowing it.
One might never know when they are sitting across a desk being interviewed by somebody who never posted a message here, but read every last embarrassing post.
Grammar and spelling also count. A lot.
You're = You are.
Your = Something that belongs to you.
It's = It is.
Its = Belonging to it.
Plus many more...
Casual typos: No big deal.
Online messages are forever and Google makes them easy to find.
--Mark |
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Joe Winn, Photographer
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Tampa | Fl | USA | Posted: 11:41 PM on 08.14.09 |
->> OMFG the drama.
I know there are a few photogs who shoot for the local team. There are several photogs who shoot for AP. No names. I never stated when I went to a game...it was many moons ago...with my wife and 4 yr old son.
Even though I'm getting flamed, and I half expect to get flamed whenever I post on a public forum (I could say how much I love my "brand X" equipment and get flamed all to hell nowadays), I have received several emails and even a phone call from a few very helpful members and I thank them very much...I VERY much appreciate it.
This is starting to feel like I insulted a mafia member...now all the rest of them are going to make sure I never work in this, or any other town ever again. So all the help I am getting won't really help me unless I change my name and move to Mars and try out all the new advice there.
Bad move on my part...tell all the guys on facebook I apologize. My judgement level is low today...a tournament I was going to do this weekend got cancelled and funds are low. Time to plan for next week...I hope none of them read SS or I'm screwed...no sarcasm intended. |
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Karl Stolleis, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Santa Fe | NM | | Posted: 12:03 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> Joe,
This is not a flame or anything directed at you critically.
This is not and never has been a business for the thin skinned. What you need to do is be persistant, not bitter. One will pay off the other will not. Really.
How to get credentials is not how you will make money in the game. How you will make money is getting your portfolio in front of people that matter and having that turn into assignments. The credentials will be part of the assignment. Just getting yourself into a game will not achieve anything.
And the guys that you see that can "barely operate their equipment." Well there has been a lot posted here already about guys willing to work for free. How do you know these guys are not in that league? You dont know the specifics of their agreements but again - you cannot let your perception of others, and their position "in front of you" embitter you. It will get you nowhere.
You are doing all the right things but just because they havent paid off on your timeline doesnt mean they wont pay off some day. Stick with it. |
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TD Paulius, Photographer
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Orland Park | IL | USA | Posted: 12:19 AM on 08.15.09 |
| ->> Find a small daily or weekly if you can and establish yourself with its Ed or PE, so that you have a reference in the business. Though they may be small, others read them and they face the same issues that the bigger dailies and the services present: reliability, timeliness and the ability to deliver. Then they can easily reccommend you to others and perhaps bigger fish in the pond, when they get together for a few beers. Good luck. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:23 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> GEEEEZZZUSSSS! and I thought I was an ASSHOLE!!!
Mr. Winn, sorry to be the first here to tell you but you're just not THAT good. Sure, you have some nice photos but so does Sally Mae with her Canon Rebel who lives up the street from me. I have to say if I ever want to use an example of how NOT to go about getting into the business YOU would be that example. Responding to your thread is worth getting any and all inappropriate's I can get. Good God, this is the second thread this week that is just reeking of insanity. Oh, and your last smart ass response? It's probably correct, you should think about shooting the pet of the week on Mars. And it is no fault but your own. |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 1:32 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> This is all a little entertaining and depressing all at once. The dynamic is changing in photography. For those of us caught in he middle, there are really no prospects of a staffer job, not if you have any kid of real life outside of photography. Folks like George and Robert are mainstays on this board, are excellent shooters and still, do not necessarily have job security. It is an ugly world out there and the days of $2500 an image and day rates over $350 are getting slimmer.
What does that mean? If you want to survive you adapt. It also means you better either be a balls-on great action shooter or have the ability to bring something extra to the table.
Joe, you started this thread by bashing some folks and telling everyone how solid you are. Well, before anyone is going to pick you up, you need more to show than just some solid, rather ordinary, baseball/softball shots. They are solid, but there is no real indication you have the chops to go, shoot an event on deadline, process, transmit on deadline and have a product that is extraordinary. You may totally be capable of this, but if the firs impression i the one that makes the mark...Remember, there are probably a ton of shooters in your area who can do they same, or better, and have the track record of transmitting on deadline.
Heck, there is on guy I work with, Charles Sonnenblick. He shot Tiger at Bay Hill two weeks removed from a stroke and came up with this shot (http://www.worldgolf.com/photo-galleries/images/preview/25226.jpg). You might think they aren't all that good, but there are some great shooters in your area. Humility goes a long way in helping editors believe you will be able to adapt to their needs.
As for credentials...just try getting them from the PGA or NFL? There is no magic bullet. Even if there was for credentials, unless you are part of the AP team, forget it, you are wasting your time. You can shoot it, but the images will not move. And, I am telling you, it is hard for everyone to get credentials. These sports protect their athletes and their images,, and rightfully so.
Finally, there are a bunch of photographers out there and the divide between good shooters, great sports shooters and great photojournalists continues to grow.
Good luck. Keep shooting. Diversify. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 1:33 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> I have to hand it to you Liddy --- we can count on you to speak your mind!
This thread has gotten a little out of hand. It is unfortunate that this happens, but if you walk in the rain without a coat and an umbrella, you're gonna get wet as my dad would say.
I will affirm one thing that was mentioned here: Trust me there are many, many, many, many top picture editors, photographers and publishers that read SportShooter.com every day.
This is a VERY small business ... and getting smaller by the day. |
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Joe Winn, Photographer
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Tampa | Fl | USA | Posted: 1:44 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> Thanks Karl and TD...much appreciated.
Let me just say that this isn't the first time I've posted what I thought was a fairly well stated question on a forum, got blasted, wondered what the hell is everyone's problem, and realized I put my foot in my mouth.
You'd think I'd learn sooner or later to never post while in the heat of the emotion. I was reading Chris' post about writing on the subject of how to get credentials. He got blasted for possibly letting the "secret" out. I was kinda pissed because I'm actually a guy who has been trying eke my way into that world. So I posted this nightmare of a thread.
I apologize for disrespecting those working pros in my area who may think I'm referring to them...although it's probably too late. (When racists apologize for making derogatory remarks, I never think they are sincere...)(Vick apologized for fighting dogs...but I think he probably would still do it if it were legal). I'm not a guy who is conceited or self-centered...I'm the guy helping the mom with her camera settings for better shots of her kid. If you didn't like me after the first post this probably won't change your opinion (Brian and others) but if we ever meet I'm certain you'll realize that first impressions are sometimes incorrect.
Anyways...glad I could provide entertainment and I hope this thread drops like a stone in Charlie Brown's candy bag.
Thanks again to those that offered advice...I will use it wisely.
Joe |
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Chris Stanfield, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Atlanta | GA | USA | Posted: 1:48 AM on 08.15.09 |
| ->> Perhaps this simply comes from the mood I'm in right now, but give the guy a break. He's trying to earn a living for his family - he's frustrated and he turned to us for info. Joe's approach was less than tactful but he's right, there are a lot of stone throwers on these boards. I know because several of you call or email me and bitch about each other all the time. Look, we've all done it and we all think we're better than the next guy. I'm not condoning his approach but I can sure empathize with Mr. Winn, his desire to do what he loves, while providing for his family and fighting that growing level of frustration we all face from time to time. And I gotta say....where has all the compassion gone lately? Everyone's pissed, I get that, but lately the amount of poison and divisive language in some of these threads has really diluted the product for me. We all make mistakes. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 1:53 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> "You are doing all the right things"
ahhhh, that would be a NO. Your apology smacks of crocodile tears.
I'm still curious after reading all of this what exactly did you hope to accomplish?
Seriously? |
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Craig Mitchelldyer, Photographer, Assistant
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Portland & Orange County | OR and CA | USA | Posted: 2:01 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> " how the hell do I get a job doing what I love when I can't get my foot in the door?"
I'd probably start by putting that foot in your mouth. Any. And I really mean any chance you ever had at getting even a free gig shooting pro sports just flew out the window.
Also, have some humility. I have not looked at your work because your posts make me never want to. I know plenty of editors will feel the same way. You cannot possibly be that great. Nobody is. Not great enough to justify, in public for millions to see, that veterans who have proven themselves should be out of a job and for you to take there place.
It really took me about 30 seconds to figure out the 8 possible people you could be speaking about.
Also, more than just photographers read this board. I had a mortgage loan officer comment on a story I wrote last month during the loan process! How you present yourself and act on this board is far from "behind closed doors".
My last point, there is more to being a professional photographer than taking good pictures. You should also conduct yourself accordingly. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 2:06 AM on 08.15.09 |
| ->> Chris, I respect you and your work a great deal. But I have to disagree with you here. Giving someone a break who lambasted everyone in his geographical area and then made a joke about the indignation by members who called him out is just not going to work. Then an apology that reeks of sarcasm. Nope, sorry... the guy got what he deserved. If I made crappy comments about other folks I would expect nothing less than to be jacked up by the members of this site. He didn't turn to anyone for information. He attacked all the shooters around him and dismissed them as photographers not up to his standards. He should really drop off the radar screen for a while...not saying he deserves the death penalty or anything but maybe he should have the "dunce hat" glued to his head for starting such a stupid thread. |
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Kelvin Ma, Photographer, Assistant
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Boston | MA | | Posted: 2:27 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> Rest assured, Joe Winn....
You may not know the right people in the Tampa Bay market, but as of this post, they most definitely know you.
Here it is, your moment of Zen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAepgZ5iM5k |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 2:38 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> Joe,
If you take George's post about the AP and substitute San Francisco for wherever he was trying to break in and me for him, it would be the same response. I moved to SF with one of the biggest foot in the door I could have at the AP (a recommendation from John Gaps III) and showed my book. The ever gracious Eric Risberg informed me they were between editors and they had plenty of stringers at the time and check back when they had a new editor. Fast forward a year, during which I made my money working as a prep cook, and I finally got my first assignment: holding a camera and lens and running film at a football game. I slowly started getting some assignments over the next year, but it wasn't until I brought in a feature that I had shot, that Vin Albiso had sent a complement back to the buro about, that I found out how tenuous my status was - I was told on the side that that photo saved my butt for a while. I hadn't been doing enough as a stringer on my own for them to warrant more assignments. And then it wasn't always shooting. Of course I would have preferred to be shooting, but I was more than happy to run the darkroom for a big football game (damn my excellent processing skills and bringing my tiny fridge stocked with beer to the stadium).
I guess my point is quiet persistence. With anyone you want to work for. I don't often have to deal with cold calls/portfolio submissions (we rarely use stringers) but I do know one contact does nothing. An approach, a follow up letter (in an envelope), an updated book later and a request for a meeting when they have time, some research into who you want to work for/with so you can make a complement or comment will go a long way. Handing your business card to someone and leaving it at that just makes your business card printer happy.
The topic of your critique of other photographers has been covered. But I will add that you probably shouldn't critique someone without them asking for it - then all gloves are off and one should provide some constructive criticism. Also, sarcasm doesn't work well online. I know. If you look back at some of the things I posted seven or eight years ago... Well, let's just say I learned my lesson. I get your sarcasm and can read it as such, but read a different way it comes off as something my kids would say.
I wish you the best of luck and understand that it is tough to make a living in this business. And even tougher to crack into what you are interested in. It just takes some basic time, persistence and networking. You have pointed out that it seems to be "who you know," and you are right. With a watered down skill set now, it is harder to break in with some great technical photography or ancillary skills (I'm thinking of the ability to manually follow focus, with either Nikon or Canon, understanding how many rolls through a batch of developer = how much increased time given what your DecTec is able to produce). That's where the networking, the contacting, the relationships will get you where you (might) want to go.
With a wife and three kids and one income, I understand the kind of pressure you are under. And with the Sword of Damocles hanging over my head, I know that I should be doing some marketing in case that thread is cut.
Just try to remember to play nice in the sandbox. |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 2:40 AM on 08.15.09 |
| ->> P.S. Don't start replying to a "hot" thread then go talk to your sister for a couple hours before actually posting. Everything you said becomes redundant. |
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Joe Winn, Photographer
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Tampa | Fl | USA | Posted: 2:43 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> At this point anything I write will be taken out of context.
I will say a few final things...do I think can get higher quality images than SOME people in the area? Yes. Do I think I get the best? No...not by a long shot. But I am always trying to be better. As Chris said, we have all, at some time or another, thought our work was higher quality than someone elses. I get better by seeing great work by other photographers...and striving to acheive the highest, most consistent quality I can.
I reread my original post...
These statements here are really inappropriate:
"I have seen the photo quality of several credentialed PJs in my area and I find them lacking."
Bad way to say that I think some of my work may be of higher quality than certain working pros in my area. Not all, but certain ones.
"Newspapers aren't hiring but I know of a few newspaper shooters in my area who have jobs but whose work is definitely below my level."
Same as above. Dumb way to get a newspaper job eh? This is what posting while pissed can unknowingly do for your reputation.
"The official photog for our pro baseball team can barely operate his equipment...and a few other guys who shoot AP wonder how he even got his job."
I have since realized through emails pertaining to this post that I was not actually observing the "official" photog for our local team, but another photog who was not affiliated with the team. I have apologized to the official photog.
I think I will take Chuck's advice and drop off the radar. If most of the posts here are any indication, my work is sub-par and probably unworthy of prime time anyway.
Big time mistake guys. Maybe a few years of flying low will make this brief asshole moment in history fade away. One can only hope.
To those members that have been a huge help, I want to thank you. I will not mention names...I doubt any of you will want to be associated with helping me out at this point. But, though this post does not represent it, I'm a good, honest, hard working guy who treats his customers and peers with professionalism and respect. I continually strive to be the best I can be and provide the highest level of customer service. So while I may have disrespected my peers, I have not represented us (working pros) in a bad way to the buying public.
Joe |
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Sam Morris, Photographer
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Henderson (Las Vegas) | NV | USA | Posted: 3:02 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> Joe, at this point, probably the worst thing you can do is drop off the radar. You are obviously a stand up guy for realizing your mistake about the majorteamnottobenamed photographer and apologizing. I think that says a lot about you.
You took your lumps, so stick around and contribute and continue to be part of this community.
Just don't play a martyr. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 5:43 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> Joe,
Contrary to one of your recent posts, we (the local shooters - and editors - in your area) are not the mafia. We don't have the ability to put you on an official 'black list' of any kind and frankly we don't want to. We have more important things to do. But, yes, you did get our attention last night; and not in a good way.
So what's the remedy? Keep doing what you're doing. Keep shooting. Keep building your portfolio. And hang on to that desire to get to whatever your ultimate goal is. If it's shooting pro sports here in the Tampa area then hang on to that dream and don't get discouraged if you don't get there tomorrow or even in the next couple of years. Trust me, while this thread certainly hurt your chances of getting there in the near future, it's not a career-ender by any means. You just gave us something to talk about for a few weeks and we'll be over it and on to the next thing soon enough. We've all said stupid things too and made bonehead moves and so we understand. Really we do.
Look Joe, to be honest with you, at an average Rays' game you generally only have:
1- Shooter from the St. Petersburg Times (a staffer)
1- Shooter from the AP (either the staffer or one of 3 stringers)
1- Shooter for Reuters (but not at every game)
1- Official Team Photographer
Maybe (but rarely) 1 shooter for Getty
Maybe (but even more rare) 1 shooter for US PressWire
That's generally it.
Even the Tampa Tribune has been using AP images unless it's an important game or they're working on a particular story angle. And that's OK, they're trying to use their resources wisely in these difficult times and I totally understand that. The Lakeland Ledger and the Sarastoa Herald-Tribune generally don't send shooters and the Bradenton Herald stopped sending a shooter this season.
So at an average Rays' game there are usually 3 of us- times have changed a lot in the last two years. That doesn't mean that those of us who shoot the games are hoarding credentials or trying to muscle newcomers away from "our turf" or anything like that, it's just the way things are in this current economic climate. In fact, this season I've only shot about a dozen Rays' games so far and I was VERY grateful for those assignments.
But I'll let you in on a secret: while, again, I'm VERY GRATEFUL to the editors who assign me to shoot the Rays, Buccaneers, Tampa Bay Lightning, or USF Bulls games, they generally take all day to shoot. Yes, they're only on t.v. for a couple of hours but between getting to the game really early to get parking, pick up credentials, stake a claim in the media workroom, transmit after the game, etc... it's an all day affair.
An editorial day rate to shoot a portrait generally pays about the same and takes all of 30 minutes and you generally only have to tone, caption and transmit a few images. So, my point is that there are easier ways (and more opportunities) to make a living than shooting professional sports action.
Joe, take a deep breath, enjoy what you're doing and know that you'll eventually recover from this disaster of a thread. Don't get too discouraged when you see someone else on the sidelines. We're all treading water together right now man. |
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David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 7:40 AM on 08.15.09 |
| ->> I guess it is safe to say that Joe can't Winn for losing...... |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 11:54 AM on 08.15.09 |
->> Arguing with the advice given is the best way not to get any advice. Arguing with what is said is the best way to just get shut out in the cold.
I've had reasonably good photographers work for me, but when they start to be contrary too much, I don't have time to bring them along.
You have to trust that when we tell you to shut the hell up, do it. Your attitude about "they" is a problem. It doesn't matter that "they" suck. This about you, not them.
Don't argue. You started this firestorm. Just find the bits of advice here that you can use. |
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Clark Brooks, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 12:20 PM on 08.15.09 |
->> Joe:
You never did answer my question but I'm going to answer yours of "Any ideas?"
First - Learn to communicate better in writing. You OP could have saved you tons of heartache and a now degraded reputation among your peers if you had simply posted"
"Hi guys. I would like to obtain freelance work covering pro and college games or ideally a position a newspaper or magazine staff photographer. We have a lot of great shooters in my area and I feel my work is on par with their talent. Any advice?"
Had you wrote this, despite this being one the toughest periods in the photographic industry, mixed in with a few depressing posts about the extreme difficulty of getting your foot in the door, you would have received a lot of personal success stories like Mr. Bridges to constructive approaches to take to reach your goal.
Communication is key in the communication business. Where you made your first mistake, as others have pointed out and you are well aware of now, was publicly dissing fellow shooters. Now, not only do you have prove you can shoot, but you also along the way have to prove you are not the arrogant S-O-B you came across as in your first three post.
Second mistake came when you wrote, "...I know of a few newspaper shooters in my area who have jobs but whose work is definitely below my level"
I looked at the images in your profile after you first post. Honestly, the action is great. But, as Mr. Liddy succinctly expounded, "Mr. Winn, sorry to be the first here to tell you but you're just not THAT good. Sure, you have some nice photos but so does Sally Mae with her Canon Rebel who lives up the street from me."
For sure you captured some great moments, however the image quality is lacking in most of them because they are not properly color corrected. Your lead image is too magenta, image #5 is too yellow, and image #9 is has too much green in the low tonal range and is a little soft for my taste. The shot of a player diving for the ball is always great - for them to buy. But, from a PJ perspective, was it the game winning/ending moment? Does the image tell the story about the event or player?
Wanting to see more of your work, hoping your SS portfolio wasn't indicative of the complete scope of your work, I looked for a link, like Mr. Whitley to an online portfolio or another site. None, so like my esteem colleague, I did a Google search and assumed this was your site: http://winningphotography.smugmug.com/ where I found, like he, most of the links, especially the 'Gallery' link did not work.
As an photo editor and a former photo buyer for a large publishing company, after viewing you SS portfolio and smugmug account, your name would not make my short list. You proved you have part of what it takes, but you need to prove you have the whole package.
What's missing?
First, a portfolio. Your SS profile is a good start, but you need sharp, color corrected images from a variety of sports. An editor needs someone who can shoot a variety of sporting events. You need to show variety. Where's the jube? Where's the dejection? You proved you can shoot game action but if I was looking for a shooter I want to know they can also capture the emotion of the game. Your portfolio doesn't show that. You need a port with images that show not only action, but the emotional part of the game and images that show the environment of the game. Where are the detail shots? where's the humor? Your port needs to show you are versatile and can capture a variety of images that tell a story about the game or event you are covering.
So your first step if you want to be a part of the "...
'I've got credential' crowd...." and see your work published is to put together a 15-20 image portfolio and get it online. Make sure all the links work and the images are perfect. Then contact Mr. Liddy and a few other SS members who's work you respect and beg for a portfolio review. Seek out those who are willing to give you the harshest of critiques.
After reading their reviews, if they are nice enough to take the time to do it, thank them and carefully consider their recommendations and critiques. Make the modifications and ask for another.
What else is missing? Captions. The sample of your work that is online is not competitive with an already hundreds of thousands of working or fresh out of college PJ because it lacks captions. If you want to work in the news industry you got to write captions...and good ones. Each should tell who, what, where, when, why at the very least. While you are working on that online port, caption every image. Look up, learn and use AP style. Check and double check the names of the athletes, officials and coaches. Pay attention to grammar, spelling and punctuation - it all makes a difference!
That may be the problem with your email as well. A photo editor or newspaper editor is not going to respond if your cover letter contains numerous spelling or grammatical errors. Likely, they are fielding calls and emails form a dozen of others, like you, who want to work for them. Your cover letter and contact material has to standout or it will never get noticed.
You wrote in a later post, "Do I think I am the best? Of course not. But do I think I am better than some (not all) of the stuff I see in my area? Of course I do."
Oh, do you really think you have what it takes to be a PJ sports photog? Shooting on deadline is a different beast from shooting event style. Can you shoot three games in three separate locations at least five miles apart, captioned and put online four storytelling or action images from each in three hours? That's the job at a daily and some weekly papers. Can you shoot half a football game, edit and caption 12 images before the end of the third quarter and return to the field to shoot the last quarter. Then in 45 minutes to an hour upload another five to eight photos that show again key moment or the game determining play. You might think you can but when it is rubber on the road that's the real job and it ain't easy. If you can make great images consistently on all three assignments like this all the time, day in - day out - you will have no problem achieving your goals or getting the dream position.
Your current issue is the five or six folks on the AP guy's list can do this. He and other editors don't know you can. You need to prove you can. As the publisher for the magazine I work for likes to say, "Talk's cheap. It takes money to buy whiskey."
Other advice? Later you wrote: "I speak to you guys like we're in a bar having a beer not like you're interviewing with me or vice versa."
You aren't in a bar. Reserve that style of communication for when you are at your favorite watering hole not for professional online community. Your post here on SS and other forums need to be well-thought out and professional if you want people to respect you and want to maintain a positive reputation.
And, after you wrote, "I know oh so well that this is a "who you know" business." You also wrote, "You don't know me."
That's a problem you need to solve and quickly and for two reasons. One, to salvage your reputation and actually show people you are the really great guy you say you are and two to get your foot in the door at some point down the road.
Photographers who respect your work, personality and work ethic WILL refer work to you. I refer work to guys in my area I know who can handle a client's needs when I'm not available or can't do the job because of another commitment. No one knows you in Tampa and you don't them so none of them can refer work to you and you can't gain their trust or respect.
Take the initiative to get to know people in your area, Joe. Invite photographers over or out to dinner. Here, we try to have a fall and spring gathering where folks I know who shoot sports hangout for five or six hours exchanging business ideas, plans for new services, sell used gear, show of new images and talk about nutty post on sportsshooter ;-) Usually, we have a mix of newspaper, event/T.I shooters and freelancers who drive waitresses crazy (she is tipped very well), fill the joint with laughter and strengthen bonds.
In summary, you need to perform four tasks if you want seriously want to reach your goal. Be aware that it will not happen overnight, but certainly faster than if you were to continue starting forum post such as this one.
1. Create and maintain a competitive portfolio that contains a variety of images that are CAPTIONED, properly COLOR CORRECTED/WHITE BALANCED, and from a VARIETY of sports as well as with a VARIETY of different moments from the game. Keep it current and keep it beautiful.
2. Improve your ability to communicate in writing and in person. Maintain a positive online identity by paying attention to grammar and spelling and more importantly HOW you write it.
3. Hone your shooting skill set for PJ work as outlined above. Find a way to DEMONSTRATE IT to those in the position to hire you.
4. CREATE OPPORTUNITIES to meet working photographers and develop professional and/or personal relationships with them. If you have the right stuff, they'll help you along the way on the road to success.
HTH and good luck. |
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Brian Blanco, Photographer
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Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 12:25 PM on 08.15.09 |
->> I should drop it but I can't. Darren brings up an excellent point about "they" that I meant to address earlier.
The "they" part and the fact that you (Joe) were so indignant about our frustration even though you didn't expressly name names was really what was the most difficult part for me to swallow.
I don't know how it works in other markets, but here in the Tampa Bay area we're not just just competition and we're not simply colleagues, we're friends. Our spouses are friends with each other. We play with each other's kids and pets and we generally care about each other. THAT, Joe, is how we "network". THAT is how we get the work that we get and the positions that we earn. By being good people and looking out for each other we all benefit through professional and personal relationships.
So, when you are critical of "they", even if I may not know who, exactly, you're talking about, I still know it's someone I count as a friend. Someone I care about. Someone I'd get defensive over. |
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John Bowersmith, Photographer
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Lubbock | Tx | USA | Posted: 1:18 PM on 08.15.09 |
| ->> How does that crow taste Joe? |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 2:07 PM on 08.15.09 |
->> Ah, the whining and whinging of youth about how unfair the world is. It's a constant. (I've done it.)
While it may be satisfying to bitch about the powers that be when you're sitting at the bar with friends after a hard day's work it's not a terribly good idea to present those same ideas in the light of day on a forum that can be read by lots of people. You know that now.
Getting into this business takes a long time and a lot of patience. Deal with it or get a real job and take beautiful pictures as a hobby. Or, take the example of artists throughout the ages and find yourself a pope or a prince to act as your patron.
Save those cutting barbs for the few times in your life when you know that you have nothing to lose (Him: "You're an excellent magazine photographer but we need a newspaper photographer." Me: "I could re-print everything in black and white if that would make you happy.")
You should now apologize to everyone that you may have offended and blame it on the large amounts of Nyquil you've had to take because of that massive head cold. |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 2:37 PM on 08.15.09 |
->> Joe,
I believe you're a good photographer and a good person. We're not picking on you, we're picking on what you said. What you said isn't uniquely your attitude. It's not all wrong it's just you said it here, when it's a conversation you should have offline with someone in your community. However, the guys whom you may regard as lesser shooters may be better people and that's something worth learning from.
I have a friend whom I'd like to "think" I'm a better shooter than he is. My friend has a very successful photo business, and I only do 1/10th his numbers. What I learn from him is how to handle customers, how to be a kinder person and how to be happy even when I turn out work that is less than perfect.
BTW, my own website is less than perfect. My wife rips me. So instead of grousing over the other photographers, work on your website. I wonder if some of your problems with it right now are specifically related to Smugmug being your host. Keep a running list of where you can improve it. I should be doing that myself.
A good question for you is whether sports is the only type of photography you can do? If not, get some images out there that show your other talents. Also, I'd recommend a tweak on your business name. I'd add your first initial to emphasize that Winn is you last name. "J. Winning Photography." No one here wants you to fail. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:12 PM on 08.15.09 |
->> Joe, its also worth mentioning to remember when your viewing other shooters work in the newspapers and other places that you don't fully know the conditions those photos were taken under.
I might have an assignment to shoot a certain player because a sports editor wants a feature on them. I might of had plenty of better action of countless other guys on the team, but your not going to see those because I don't get to pick what runs, an editor does. Your not always seeing what I think is my best images of a game. Maybe the guy I was assigned to shoot only played a few sets of downs even. In those cases I'm not thinking about producing a shot that will impress people, I'm simply trying to get a shot and not let down the editor.
Additionally, a lot of shooters have to not only cover multiple teams, but multiple games at different locations same night. When you've got 15 minutes to try to get some good publishable shots of two teams and then get in your car and drive 15 minutes to another school, your working at quite a disadvantage.
It sounds like your spending 10 hours a day shooting events, and your focus is simply on getting the best action shots possible. You then can simply pick and choose the best stuff possible to put it forward.
I've been the official shooter for a lot of state tournaments and I'll spend 10 hours a day shooting one event sometimes, lets say long jump. Well at the end of the day I'll have thousands of frames of long jump and I bet out of those I can pick and choose frames better than any other shooter there. Why ? Because I got 10 hours to work at it and they had literally 2 jumps from the lone athlete who's school they were covering. Doesn't mean I'm better than them, just means they didn't get to shoot it with the same advantages I did.
Next time you see a published photo in the paper and don't think its that great, remember its more than just a photo. Its someone who had 15 minutes to shoot a game, get all the requested players they needed, edit and caption those shots, transmit and then get to another game and do it all again in one night.
So before you make any judgments of someones ability, make sure you understand what its really like to have to walk in their shoes. Producing great images really is one of the easier parts of the job. |
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