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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Not the way to go
Lee Weissman, Photographer
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XXXXX | NY | USA | Posted: 11:48 AM on 08.06.09 |
| ->> The following story in my opinion is a lesson on how not to do things. A buddy of mine is a photographer for several local universities, and has been for a number of years. A talented, professional photographer, they have provided these institutions with quality work at fair professional rates. Another photographer in the area has been trying obtain universities as their clients. While competition is hardly a new idea, and in my opinion is a good thing, the method is what needs to be debated. The new photographers slant is to do the jobs dirt cheap, and telling the customer that you get multiple jobs from them for what you pay your current photographer for a single job. I am wondering if this person has ever heard of FICA, and income tax? Since those of us who do this as a fulltime profession understand these implications, it would seem to me that you need to net out a reasonable amount in order to exist. Lets just use basic numbers for example. If you charge $100 to shoot a football game, you will net out on one side of $60. I don't know about you but I am hoping to do better than that for three hours of shooting, not to mention the back-end work. While I have always lived by the montra that "something is better than nothing" if you have an open day, you may take something offered to you. I don't feel it is professional to deliberately grossly undercut another to obtain the work. I know this has been said before on these forums, but if we don't keep a professional level of pricing, we will end up spinning our wheels. |
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Richard Orr, Photographer
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Longmeadow | MA | USA | Posted: 4:49 PM on 08.10.09 |
->> Pricing is a relative thing. My overhead is different than yours. While I couldn't do a football game for $100 and live, I could do it for that plus sales from students and parents that bring the gross for the event to $600. The difference whether I need it up front, or can I pay my bills for the next 30 days as the sales come in.
A few years ago we had a guy getting all of the D3s go to him because he charged nothing. Nada. Free. The plan was to make ALL of the money off from T&I and farm out the action to students. I probably lost three or four clients and almost lost several others. The attraction of free was too much. And this guys stuff WAS good. The problem was his student/contractor work was not good.
Finally, he pulled out and several schools have come back. And my prices have gone up.
The point of my tale is that we either make money or we don't. My model might be different than yours, but in the end if we don't make money, pay our taxes, and do all of the other stuff we need to do, we will go away.
There is no rule that we need to be gentlemen, or that we even act professionally. It is nice when that happens, but if you put out a good product with value, the money will come. You will see the others on the sidelines and then they will be gone come winter. |
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Joshua Brown, Photographer
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Waynesville | NC | USA | Posted: 8:12 PM on 08.10.09 |
| ->> Another consideration. Not all photogs, especially freelancers, pay tax. I'm not saying it is ok, fair or acceptable, but that same photog might charge $100 and bring home $100, making his overhead (although illegal), considerably lower. |
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Andrew Wilz, Photographer
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Aspen | CO | USA | Posted: 11:17 PM on 08.10.09 |
| ->> ...i wonder how you work and don't pay 'tax'... ? |
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Joshua Brown, Photographer
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Waynesville | NC | USA | Posted: 12:00 AM on 08.11.09 |
| ->> Perhaps "claim income on tax returns" is a better phrase. |
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Joseph Rogate, Photographer
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Seaford | NY | USA | Posted: 7:08 AM on 08.11.09 |
->> Richard...the same has happened to me here in NY. Wonder if it is the same guy???hahaha..but he worked for cheap and although his work was good he never shot a game , he to contracted his work out to students for $25.00 per game (yes I said $25.00 per game) and now those schools are coming back because the students work has been unacceptable to the schools and rarely did they even stay the entire game.
One of the problems faced now is the "out of town photographers". they are shooting the games of our local teams while in thier cities and sending full res photos on DVD's from the entire game for just $50.00. Although I am still working game coverage the schools have cut back on coverage because of these guys sending in DVD's for cheap prices. How many photos do they really need??? |
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Lee Weissman, Photographer
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XXXXX | NY | USA | Posted: 8:27 AM on 08.11.09 |
| ->> Richard I guess you are missing my point. If in your business model it works for you to load up your expensive gear into your car, and drive whatever distance three or more times, then do the back-end work, maintain a website, and of course report your income from sales, for the same money that should be paid for one game, then so be it. In the same thinking, lets take that $600, add the labor to promote the availability of the images, deduct even more labor to produce high quality images, and of course the materials needed to produce and deliver these images. Now lets assume we are doing this legally, and not as suggested above, and consider all tax implications, which now includes the charging and reporting of sales tax. (I don't know in your state if a tax certificate is needed, but in NY it is) The point I was trying to make in my post was that we need to be professional in our pricing, the extras made are great, but may not always be constant. |
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Willis Glassgow, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Florence | SC | USA | Posted: 11:29 AM on 08.11.09 |
->> Lee,
I could not agree with you more. We (WG Sports Photos) shoot only for colleges and yes, we have had some other companies come in and grab some of our clients. Many times with the promise that the schools will end of breaking even or making a profit with online and event sales. Many of these agencies do NOT make a profit and end up deep in the red, while we end up every year in the black.
Then there are also the guys who just want to be involved. I know of a guy that covers Appalachian St sports for FREE. He shoots the game just to be on the sidelines!....and here's the kicker. He's a professional photographer!!!!!!.....he shoots school photos as his 9-5 job. This guy should know better, but from what others have told me, he has no idea he is doing anything wrong.
These kinds of scenarios are happening all over the country. To be honest, I am hoping the recession weeds out some of the "weekend warriors" are shooting for nothing or almost nothing. (Please no offense to the truly talented folks that can only work weekends, charge the correct price and act like professionals.)
Good luck out there folks and email me if you want to discuss strategies. |
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Lee Weissman, Photographer
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XXXXX | NY | USA | Posted: 3:28 PM on 10.12.09 |
| ->> **UPDATE** A photographer gave a HI-Res full game shoot to a local university for the whopping sum of $50. WOW, can't even fill up the Porsche on that. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 4:26 PM on 10.12.09 |
->> Stupid pricing models are like being in a foxhole and 10,000 enemy troops come over the hill. You have 2 options:
1) stay and get slaughtered
2) Retreat and invest your time, energy and talent in profitable jobs.
Now, as Richard pointed out, part of this is holding on to the clients best you can. As the story ended up, the guy's business model failed because he may have been talented but his student hires work wasn't. The other point is to keep talking to the lost accounts on a regular and friendly basis - the worm usually turns.
Just keep in mind that there will be too many people attracted to sports photography who have more money than business sense - just because you win one eventually doesn't mean it's over.
Work on building relationships and doing what the other guys can't. I can't emphasize this last part too much.
Michael |
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Dave Miller, Photographer
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Darlington | PA | | Posted: 4:44 PM on 10.12.09 |
->> I do a lot of work in this area as well and have experienced some of the same circumstances. I'm sticking to my guns, though and it seems to help. While losing a little to some of these people, overall I'm OK. I just don't take ANYTHING for granted. Some of my people get things for free and still pay me because they know and see the difference. I remind myself that I'm a professional and conduct myself in that manner. In my business dealings and the way I conduct myself on assignment.
Just my .02 |
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