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funny story..."btw, can you bring your camera?"
Darrell Miho, Photographer
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Los Angeles : SFO : HNL | CA | usa | Posted: 6:00 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> you're gonna love this story (i hope)...sorry, it's long, but there is a lesson in it...
so i met this person a few months ago who is a performer. we have had some contact via email and FB and had only met briefly for 5 minutes at a fundraiser. they had a show in town and i wanted to support this person and see the show, so i bought 2 tickets.
they call me up and thank me for buying tickets and matter of factly say, why don't you bring your camera, i need some pictures of me performing. (you know it's not going to end well when you hear those words!) and i'll comp your ticket. (ooooooohhhhh weeeeee... reeealy???)
but i agree anyways because i wanted to help this person out. i figured i would allow them to use a few pics for promotions only and a few web jpgs with watermarks for their website.
shoot the show, but i failed to get one pic they wanted...crowd shots. i only got a few and they had no reaction, so they were basically useless and i admittedly told them that and apologized for failing to get those pics. i was disappointed that i failed, but i wasn't going to lose sleep over it because after all, this wasn't exactly a "paid" job.
at first, over the phone, they say they probably only needed a couple shots, which is pretty much in line with what i was willing to give them. perfect. no big deal.
after seeing the pictures in my photoshelter account, they are disappointed about not having the crowd shots, but still liked the other photos. so after viewing the selects (94 pics) they weed out the ones they don't want and are now left with approximately 60+ photos they like and out of those 60, they pick 12 that they really like.
so the email request arrives...
"These are the photos that I really like.
Please make these 300 DPI’s on the same disc with the other files. So basially all the photos as big files and on the same one add these p;hotos again as 300 DPI."
i asked them what happened to needing only 2 or 3?
"Because people ask for diff photos and I don’t like the same one being printed over and over and thes are good just incase people need them.
If it is too hard for you, I have photoshop so as long as I get a disc with the photos I can change it myself"
i explain that changing to 300dpi is not a problem (they're already at 300dpi), it's the end user i'm worried about.
"my reservation is from the end use (who's using it, how it's being used and how many photos are going to be released to them for them to use) as well as what you want and what i'm willing to give are two different things.
i'm not in the business of giving away photos for unlimited usage, nor do i want magazines running a feature on you with several of my photos when they should be paying for them or hire a photographer to shoot you. i know you want the publicity, but there are certain photo usages that magazines should be paying for. i'm willing to help you, but my generosity only goes so far."
as you can imagine, since i am writing about this here, that did not go over very well.
"I guess I misunderstood you. I was under the impression that you were going to take specific shots of me and the audience for my use. However, that was not the case so I think it is best that I not take any of the photos that you took of me and I ask that you not sell or distribute any of them."
and my response was:
"you can use some photos, but their usage would be restricted in the same way that if i had asked you to do a show for me to promote my business, i believe you would put restrictions on its usage if you were offered a comp ticket and lunch (they added lunch later after they saw the pics). i wouldn't be able to use the footage for anything and everything i wanted to, correct?"
i went on to explain that they and i should sit down and talk about copyright and usage rights because i didn't think she understood them completely.
and their response this morning was:
"You do not have permission to use my images in any form whatsoever. Electronic or any other medium.
Please respect wishes and not contact me any further. If you do, I will block your email."
wow! gonna block my email. really? i'm the nice guy trying to help them out an i'm getting blocked? it is amazing to me that people actually think this way. they wanted the farm but only wanted to pay for the fence post. seriously, how do they not see that this is a completely one way transaction?
the lesson? make sure you clarify the final usage before giving anyone the digital files. if you hear "by the way, since you're already coming, can you bring your camera?" just RUN! =P
at least they were somewhat reasonable and didn't want to accept any of the photos. i guess it wasn't worth the lunch they offered and the comp ticket after all. =P
did i mention that they complained earlier about not being able to get good photos from the other photogs who have taken photos? i bet they weren't offered lunch!!!
did i also mention that i paid for two tickets and brought a couple of friends and paid the two drink minimum for them and me? yes, i still had to pay for my drinks on my comp ticket. so really in essence, i would have been paying them to take pictures of them so they could use them for whatever they wanted. hmmmm...sounds fair, yeah? at least, that is what they thought. but alas, i still have the pics and they don't and at least i have a funny story to share. =)
as for them? i think they're just pissed that they didn't get what they wanted for free. well, there are many other underlying issues, but we won't get into that.
oh...and i have one less friend on FB. what??? they defriended me?!?!?! the nerve!!! what will i do now...
have a great day!!! |
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Marvin Gentry, Photographer
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Birmingham | AL | USA | Posted: 6:46 PM on 07.24.09 |
| ->> I LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 6:48 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> That's pretty great that they de-friended you.
Yeah, there was a great piece a while back on learning to say "no."
I'm better at it now... |
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Dave Einsel, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Houston | TX | United States | Posted: 6:52 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> No good deed goes unpunished.
Thanks for sharing and for doing the right thing. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 6:55 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> "You do not have permission to use my images in any form whatsoever.
OK. I'd have to at least respond to let her know that they are NOT her images. |
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Jonathan Castner, Photographer, Assistant
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Longmont | CO | USA | Posted: 7:04 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> Darrell I think that we've all had a similar situation happen to us. I did - once. Learned my lesson. Still a while ago I had an acquaintance, owns a marketing company, invite me and my wife to their big annual party. Sure! Sounds like fun - count us in. Three days before the event I get a call from said acquaintance "Hey, are you bringing your camera to the party?" I said maybe, why? "Oh I was wondering if you would take some photos for me while you were there." Well, I explained, I was under the impression that my wife and I were guests, not the hired help. Was the invite extended as a friend or as an assignment? I was told not to worry about it - just come and have a good time.
So we show up and when the host greeted us she was delighted to see that I did in fact bring a camera. We began to mingle and the host kept running up to me to ask me to photograph her and some guest. She even had the nerve to tell me "don't forget to get pictures of (whole list of stuff)" We didn't stay long and quietly left.
A few days later I get an e-mail asking me when the photos from the party would be ready and did I get a good one of someone in particular (from her list). She needs them by tomorrow for her upcoming newsletter. I had to reply that I wasn't hired to shoot her event - I was invited as a guest. I was not obligated to do anything; not even to attend. I told her that except for the 4 or 5 shots of "me and my friend" I didn't take a frame because my wife and I were trying to enjoy ourselves at a party.
Consequently I do not bring my ever present camera to parties or events where I don't have a good and established relationship with the people who are there. |
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Mike O'Bryon, Photographer
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Ft. Lauderdale | FL | USA | Posted: 7:12 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> once again..... it's the mismanaged expectation in life that trip us up...
I think you handled it well Darrell... and it's impossible to foresee all the potholes in the road... but those damn potholes will get you every time.
This is a valuable lesson
-- Mike |
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Erik Markov, Photographer
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Kokomo | IN | | Posted: 7:27 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> "they wanted the farm but only wanted to pay for the fence post" Favorite line ever. :) I'm going to have to remember that.
Darrell, do you mind if I use that line? I promise to give all credit to you.
Friend/client/moron: "What I was thinking was maybe you could, just you know, give me 400 megs of photos for free. How's that sound? I'll make sure you get a free soda."
Erik: "You know I think you want the farm, but it seems you only want to pay for the fence post. That sir, is a Darrell Miho original tagline. Please make sure you reference his name with proper credit when you tell this story about what a jerk I was that I wouldn't give you photos for free." |
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Nathan Papes, Student/Intern
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Springfield | MO | United States | Posted: 8:24 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> I've got a similar situation going on tonight. I was already going to the concert and I also got the "can you bring your camera" line. I said yes cause its honestly better then listening to this band. I told them I'de give them a few small ones for free for there myspace page but for the rest they gotta pay.
...I'll be your friend on facebook if you want |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 8:34 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> "Can you bring your camera?"
Sorry, I had to send it to the repair shop just this morning. |
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Max Lashin, Photographer, Assistant
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Fort Lauderdale | FL | United States | Posted: 8:59 PM on 07.24.09 |
->> O.M.G! they de-friended you?! how dare they! Like, how rude! :)
hehe oh 21st century... how complicated is thee! |
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Israel Shirk, Photographer, Assistant
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McCall | ID | US | Posted: 2:53 AM on 07.25.09 |
| ->> De-friending?!?!?! This is a whole other level. Return their CD. |
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Gregory McKie, Photographer
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Seattle, WA and Portland | OR | US | Posted: 3:30 AM on 07.25.09 |
->> When I started reading this, I said “this is not going to end well.”
It has always been my experience when you give something for free, two things happen,
1. The receiver places no value on it.
2. They are more demanding than someone who is paying.
The “not contact me any further” line is all about control. It is akin to having someone hang up on you during a phone conversation.
Harlan Ellison says it best http://gregory-mckie.com/free/ |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 9:55 AM on 07.25.09 |
->> Somewhere in cyberspace, on a budding performers' message board:
You won't believe the experience I had recently. I met this guy, who introduced himself as a "photographer," which of course meant he just wanted to take photos of a celebrity (me). He even went so far as to buy tickets so he'd have an excuse. I felt kinda sorry for him so I comped his tickets (and even bought him lunch, for crying out loud). I thought maybe I could use a couple of his photos for promotional throaways, that would really make him feel special!
Turns out this creep was just another paparazzo! Not only was it obvious he wanted to sell the photos to some magazine or something once I became famous, he even HAD THE NERVE to expect me to PAY HIM so that I could use my own photos!!! Can you believe it? Actually wanting MONEY from ME for photos of ME. These "photographers" are all alike, all they want is MONEY. |
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Renay Johnson, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | | Posted: 12:50 PM on 07.25.09 |
| ->> Chuck. How did you find that? I would say this "musician" is speaking of the OP. I knew his take on the situation would be different. He felt sorry for the photographer? Not cool. |
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Kent Nishimura, Student/Intern
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Honolulu | HI | USA | Posted: 4:01 PM on 07.25.09 |
| ->> Darrell i wont unfriend you! thank you for sharing your experience! aloha! |
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Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
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Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 5:25 PM on 07.25.09 |
->> Renay,
Just do a Google search for "gullible." ;)
Chuck |
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Eugenio Cebollero, Photographer
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Kernersville | NC | US | Posted: 5:32 PM on 07.25.09 |
| ->> Darrell, I enjoyed your story. I'm not so surprised anymore with the various "work for free" assumption situations that photographers on this board are having to work with or the variations thereof. I'm currently faced with a "BTW, since you work here" situation with my full time employer. I don't do photography as my primary source of income. (I wish I could!) I simply made the analogy that since I own a lawn mower should I have to come in and do the landscaping too? |
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Mike Janes, Photographer
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Attica | NY | USA | Posted: 5:33 PM on 07.25.09 |
| ->> Well, I hope the performer makes it famous so you can cash in on all "his" photos! |
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Chet Gordon, Photographer
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Newburgh | NY | US | Posted: 5:53 PM on 07.25.09 |
->> Darrell, Good story. 94 selects. 60 on the second edit, and then 12 keepers. all at 300dpi...? Sounds like a "workday" effort on your part to me. Oh yea, I forgot - they comp'd your ticket & lunch. Silly me.
When I started doing occasional work for a few local non profits 20+ years ago, I adopted the phrase that goes something like this: "If you want to pay a lot, you (the client) can have a lot of control. If you want to pay a little - you can have a little control, make suggestions, etc., and if you're not paying anything, you can stand back and watch..." Everything you did was right on point, courteous and professional, but after reading: "as you can imagine, since i am writing about this here, that did not go over very well" I knew it was going to get ugly.
There's another phrase I always keep in mind when faced with that cheery and bubbly "Could you remember to bring your camera...?" request from folks, I usually reply in one form or another, "If Stevie Wonder (insert fav. musician here) were at a dinner party, would you or even the host be willing to ask HIM to sit at the piano during the night..."
-cg. |
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David Bailey, Photographer
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Flower Mound | TX | USA | Posted: 11:54 PM on 07.25.09 |
| ->> No good deed goes unpublished! :-) |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 3:41 PM on 07.27.09 |
->> It's kind of funny they think because the pictures are of them that they own them as well.
And the musician was charging for their performance so they must understand that creative types don't do this stuff for free.
For future reference in this scenario:
"btw, can you bring your camera?"
"Sure. BTW, can you bring your checkbook?" |
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Lane Hickenbottom, Photographer
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Tim Huntington, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | USA | Posted: 4:43 PM on 07.27.09 |
->> You were drinking on the job???
Sorry, couldn't resist :-) |
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Wesley Hitt, Photographer
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Fayetteville | AR | USA | Posted: 4:44 PM on 07.27.09 |
->> "the lesson? make sure you clarify the final usage before giving anyone the digital files"
The lesson is make sure you clarify the final usage before you show up to take the photos. Even the smallest jobs can have usage misunderstandings. |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 5:05 PM on 07.27.09 |
->> Lesson should be learned to get everything in writing before you show up. You could have stated what you would do for them.
I prefer in these cases to trade out for equal value. The ticket price and say lunch against your price structure. $100 ticket then $100 of service. Often in a case like this you could have bartered for more than a couple of tickets and treated some of your clients or friends to a concert and chance to meet the band backstage.
Estimate and approval before showing up will avoid this situation. |
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