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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
HuffPo to J-Schools: Shut down//Interesting Read
Jack Howard, Photographer, Photo Editor
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 4:11 PM on 07.15.09 |
| ->> This is an expected perspective from a company that doesn't pay people for content. Wouldn't want contributors to think they're producing anything that requires SKILL and TRAINING and therefore is WORTH something. |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 4:16 PM on 07.15.09 |
->> True, but the point of his article isnt to close the doors on journalism programs but rather to limit the talent being accepted instead of anyone and everyone.
I personally do not attend a J-school but in this economy, I wouldn''t trade my liberal arts education for anything and I personally think it will serve me better in the long run, but that is my justification for going where I go. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 6:01 PM on 07.15.09 |
->> Jack, thanks, that was great. A lot of the stuff in there are things many of us have been saying for years but in my opinion that guy is a tool for this statement:
"You can pick up most media skills on the job, or with a few hours of instruction. If you screw up, nobody dies, and nothing collapses."
You know he had a pretty good column without insulting everyone in the business. But of course the guy looks like he's mainly a corporate flak writing press releases. But is was a pretty interesting read. Would love to see what kind of feedback the guy gets from academia. |
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David Minton, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Humble | TX | USA | Posted: 6:35 PM on 07.15.09 |
| ->> I think this has given me my daily dose of "WTF?" |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 9:02 AM on 07.16.09 |
->> Chuck, I agree with that statement in that it was over the top...BUT...journalism (for the most part) is something that can be learned by doing it. I agree, it wont take a day, or a "class session" at work to do it but it can be learned on the job. I think it would be interesting to see a poll on SS of how many members have a degree in journalism of any kind.
Like I said, I do not have a degree in photo-journalism but I was still given the opportunity to intern at a very good and reputable paper. I love my internship. I would change nothing about it. BUT because I have no formal education in the field, I am learning all of it through the kindness of others at the paper, making mistakes and doing it again better then I did the last time.
I don't think I could say the same about doing an internship at a doctors office, or an engineering firm. It is a unique profession and his points are very valid...until he went over the top, like you said.
Just my two cents. |
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Jason Orth, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Lincoln | NE | USA | Posted: 9:30 AM on 07.16.09 |
->> Do you think any of these J-Schools are going to turn down that kind of tuition money?
If there was one thing I learned from being a "corporate flak," it was how to set and maintain budgets, negotiate with prospective business, and basics of marketing oneself/business in addition to always being concerned about staying current and being employable.
All of which are skills that seem to be the ones suggested on this board daily. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 10:30 AM on 07.16.09 |
->> Various studies over the years have made comparisons between investing in a college education and investing in something else. Most come to the conclusion that from a pure dollar standpoint, college doesn't pay. The methodology used generally is something like "If an 18-year-old invests x dollars in bonds versus spending x on a college education...twenty years from now they will have more money with their investments..."
Here's a (rather long) example of this basic thesis:
http://www.aei.org/outlook/100034
Most of these studies are grossly oversimplified and idealized. They start with a basic flaw - namely someone who isn't planning on going to college is still going to have access to $50,000 or so to put in investments. They also make the assumption that during the time when this investment is supposed to grow, the individual will have the discipline (and good fortune) to be able to leave the principle untouched...no tragedies, bad decisions or market recessions. Finally, these studies totally ignore the fact that people are usually at their worst when they are not working at their full potential. You may be able to carve out a survivable wage by getting jobs that don't require a college degree, but the psychological and sociological impact of this approach is a significant factor. Money, in short, isn't everything.
With years of experience someone might say "you don't need school to do xyz", but a kid out of high school doesn't know that. It's not even universally true. People learn in different ways. I'm a self-teaching kind of guy and could probably do okay in many jobs with no formal training. I have friends who HAVE to have structured learning environments to at least get them started. A person like that would be dead in the water trying to make it in a career without a degree.
People are passionate. They are motivated. They like to do things. A kid coming out of high school has the unique opportunity to choose a course. Any choice they make will be viewed as "bad" by someone...either now or in the future. If they want to go to school to learn something - anything - and doing so keeps their passion alive for just a little while longer, I think it's a wise investment regardless of what the spreadsheet says. There's always time to be downtrodden.
My only advice: Try to minimize debt, and take an accounting class somewhere along the way. :-) |
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Karl Stolleis, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Santa Fe | NM | | Posted: 10:33 AM on 07.16.09 |
->> The guy is spot on - including the part about learning on the job. I know this because I spent 20 years in the biz with a degree in Forestry. I know many others who rose quite high in the journalism ranks with little or no formal training. It has always been a business that talent and intelligence will get you ahead. Mistakes were corrected on a daily basis by older staffers - who ironically have all been laid off.
And in terms of jobs - there have been several advertised in this area - requiring a college degree in journalism - starting in the mid 20's. You can make that kind of money at Home Depot.
We will always need professionals but at the rate the schools are cranking them out they should be handing out blindfolds and cigarettes, not diplomas. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 12:23 PM on 07.16.09 |
->> I wanted to clarify my statement a little. I do not have a degree in anything (except a doctorate in Smart Ass). When I entered newspapering one year out of high school I was able to learn on the job, yes it can be done. The point I took offense at in his column was the statement:
"or with a few hours of instruction"
He was pretty much spot on with the rest of the column (as I said) I don't even know why he wrote that unless he was trying to be a smart ass himself. I would truly hate to send someone out in the field on assignment with "a few hours of instruction". That, my friends, would truly be a recipe for disaster. |
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Dominick Reuter, Photographer, Assistant
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Boston | MA | USA | Posted: 12:56 PM on 07.16.09 |
->> This article and the pile of others like it kind of get under my skin.
So here's my version:
Dominick Reuter to High School Seniors: Don't go to college. All you're going to do is waste a whole bunch of money on an English, History, Art History, Science, or *gasp* Journalism degree.
Only spend your money on a degree in finance or a trade like carpentry or mechanics. And only place your money down if you are 99% guaranteed job placement the moment you receive your diploma or certificate.
Education only is as valuable as the buck it turns.
If someone doesn't offer you the magic formula to a fat 401(k) and a big house by the time you're 65, they don't know anything, and you're better off learning your own lessons in the real world. Because what else is there in life, anyway?
Little known fact: you're probably not going to work a full career in the field you studied in college. So, unless you have a crystal ball, your best bet is to get a degree in middle-management cubicle hovering. It's not exactly fun or glamorous -- or even that interesting to study, but it's a job, and you'll have some really precise accounting books. And one day, if you're lucky with the economy, you'll be able to retire and do all those exciting and fun things you've been wanting to do since college, like take pictures of really amazing things.
In short, don't bother studying anything that takes creativity or initiative, since you probably don't have enough of either to succeed at anything other than a slow crawl up some corporate ladder.
Creativity and initiative are risky, and in this world the successful people only put their money on the sure bets. |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 1:20 PM on 07.16.09 |
->> ^^ Yikes.
No, I understand Chuck. I agree, his sentence that ruined the article was a bit too much. |
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David Brooks, Photographer
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San Diego | CA | USA | Posted: 4:22 PM on 07.16.09 |
->> I think the real issue of this story is student loan debt and the price of education. College can be an enriching experience and not just academically..., accordingly students should expect personal growth and enlightenment. At what cost? Some higher education is so expensive, the subject of study and the prospect of gaining a career in that field should come into greater scrutiny.
If you are wealthy then it doesn't matter. For the rest of us, a 70K education that will quickly balloon to over 100k from interest for a career where the starting pay might be 35K, doesn't make sense.
Everyone should feel free to educate themselves in whatever field they find interesting- but for someone who is following a dream, don't let that dream blind you, put the feelings aside and look around, the reality of the situation is that even in a good economy that kind of debt pushes most dreams out of sight. Ask yourself, "is there another way?"
Even if you get the job, you will have a student loan payment that rivals a mortgage, on top of having rent and all the other costs of living, now that 35K is down to nothing. This is the story of several people I know. |
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Adam Vogler, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Kansas City | Mo. | USA | Posted: 1:14 PM on 07.17.09 |
->> $35K
I wish. |
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Darren Whitley, Photographer
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Maryville | MO | USA | Posted: 1:36 PM on 07.18.09 |
->> It depends on what he means by "a few hours."
One semester of j-school should be enough if a student were to take a full load of journalism classes. It really gets down to the doing. If you have the classroom theory, the rest is up to the student to produce something. One can take classes all day long but unless they start to produce something, they're not a journalist. And even then, it may not be worthy of such a title if it's poop. It's what you make of it. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 3:13 PM on 07.18.09 |
->> Sorry, but I think Richard Sine is full of sh*t.
First of all, it's not the school's responsibility to make the decision. It's a free country. Let the marketplace decide. For Mr. Sine, it's this simple: When the marketplace decides not to buy a journalism degree, then the universities will quit offering it.
Second, the field is losing a lot of journalists. I'm sorry, but I think we need journalists more than ever. Yeah, it's a ugly shakeout, but as soon as corporate America throws in the towel and newspapers revert back to local control, things will get better. Whether it's the web or print, the need for news hasn't changed.I assume Mr. Sine believe places like the Huffington Post are the places we should go. Really? How many people there became journalists with just a few hours training? As for his premise that no one gets killed if someone does it wrong; would he like to bet me people WILL get killed if journalism is thrown out and replaced by "citizen" journalism that plays foot loose and fancy free with the facts?
Third, and probably most important, the real premise for higher education is not to prepare you for a specific field of work, it is to learn how to think. Sorry, but I don't think too many high schools have that one down totally quite yet. Seems to me they have their arms around way too many other things - like meeting all the state and federal requirements with reduced budgets.
Other countries, like China and India, are gaining ground quickly. One place we still hold a distinct advantage is in the number of colleges and universities one can attend and get a good education in journalism - or anything else.
Mr. Sine's piece is a waste of bandwidth. In a word: Idiotic. |
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