| Sign in: |
| Members log in here with your user name and password to access the your admin page and other special features. |
|
|
|
|
|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
What do you guys do when?
Russ Erbe, Photographer
 |
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 10:18 AM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> I have been asked on many occasions by people for some of my college football pics or pro motorcycle racing pics. I know that we are not supposed to sell either of them. So, do you just give your work away to anyone that asks? |
|
Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
|
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 10:41 AM on 07.13.09 |
->> I don't have a clue about pro motorcycle photography. But it's not true that "we are not supposed to sell" college photos - it all depends on the situation. There was a recent discussion (of many) here:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=33013 |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 11:06 AM on 07.13.09 |
->> Well, this is the first paragraph of the contract I sign with Texas Tech.
“I, ______________________________, am shooting solely as a freelance photographer. In consideration of my being granted photography access, by my signature below, I hereby grant to Texas Tech University and the Texas Tech University System (“Texas Tech”) full, unrestricted, perpetual, non-exclusive, royalty-free license in any and all images that I capture, in any and all formats, whether captured on standard photographic film or digital or other media (the “works”) and I hereby grant my consent for Texas Tech to use such works in any and all media and for any purpose without my prior consent. Further, I hereby agree that I shall not rights personally sell any photographs, images, CDs, .jpegs or negatives of TTU athletic events without the express, prior, written consent of Texas Tech University Assistant Athletic Director for Media Relations, and I hereby waive such rights to do so."
I am going to email the Media Relations guy now and ask him what I can and can't do. |
|
Stew Milne, Photographer
|
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 11:10 AM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> You need to renegotiate your contract. Unless you are getting very well compensated for giving them all the usage. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 11:27 AM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> This is the contact that all freelance photogs must sign at TT. They don't compensate us at all either. Yes I know, we are being used like slaves but we are also being granted sideline access |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 11:30 AM on 07.13.09 |
->> The Media Relations director emailed me back with this:
Thanks for checking in, Russ. No, you cannot sell the images, per NCAA rules. Right now you can give them away, but there is discussion ongoing that may prohibit that as well. Reason being is to control what is out there of our student-athletes. Also, once you send someone an image, it’s pretty much out of your control what they do with it. For now, continuing sharing until a decision is made otherwise. We are working the general counsel on campus with this. Thanks! |
|
Michael Proebsting, Photographer
|
Barrington | IL | USA | Posted: 11:39 AM on 07.13.09 |
->> "We are being used as slaves but we are also being granted sideline access".
So what do you get for sideline access? No pay, wear and tear on your camera equipment, giving someone else full rights to use and profit from your images.
I think if you do a search on these message boards you will find about 100 or so threads regarding this, and how good of a deal it is.
Maybe if you call Presswire and tell them about your access you can strike a nice deal with them. |
|
Patrick Meredith, Photographer, Assistant
|
Austin | TX | USA | Posted: 11:41 AM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ,
I'm assuming you are shooting for the school when you sign this agreement? |
|
Walt Middleton, Photographer, Photo Editor
 |
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 11:52 AM on 07.13.09 |
->> WOW... And one wonders why some SIDs are so reluctant to pay very well when Texas Tech gets everything for free?
Burn that contract... Sideline access isn't worth the paper that contract is on. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 12:04 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> I'm assuming you are shooting for the school when you sign this agreement?
I wouldn't say that I'm shooting for the school, otherwise I wouldn't be considered freelance. |
|
Stew Milne, Photographer
|
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 12:07 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> Are you being paid by the school to take photos and give up all your rights? Run, don't walk away from this contract. |
|
Matt Brown, Photographer
|
Fullerton | CA | USA | Posted: 12:12 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> Russ, After all the time pre and post, miles to and from the game and paying yourself for your day, how much did you make from Texas Tech games last year? Only you know the really number. $1000? $4000? or $18.61 Just to say you shoot football. Tell the SID at Tech no thanks! Move on Russ and stop being a slave! |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 12:13 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Maybe if you call Presswire and tell them about your access you can strike a nice deal with them.
I'm really a newbie to this and I appologize in advance. I mainly shoot SX and MX motorcycle racing. Last year I just kinda stuck my foot in the door to get sideline access because I manage the public computing labs here at tech and told the media relations director that I wanted to put some TT football pics as backgrounds to our computers across campus and that I was also a sports photographer. So, could I get a sideline access and he granted it to me. This year I'm a better photog and have upgraded from a D300 to D700. So, I applied for credentials again as a Freelance and will probably be granted them again. As far as Presswire goes, I don't know who they are or what I could do for them. I know I know, dumb noob. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 12:22 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ, After all the time pre and post, miles to and from the game and paying yourself for your day, how much did you make from Texas Tech games last year? Only you know the really number. $1000? $4000? or $18.61 Just to say you shoot football. Tell the SID at Tech no thanks! Move on Russ and stop being a slave!
Not a dime. However, I live here and work here and my wife and friends buy season tickets each year. So, I would be here anyway and I would also have to buy my season ticket and sit about 30 rows up as opposed to going wherever I want to go for free on the sidelines and also get more and more practice.
I know it isn't that good of a deal for me. However, I consider myself a nobody and I'm sure tech does as well. They have staff photog and student photogs who are majoring in journalism. So, I don't see why they would pay me anything either. I consider this a form of internship. I'm not getting paid for it, but I'm getting access and experience that so many others would die for. So, I can't see how just getting upset and taking my toys and going home would be the best thing for me as a sports photog. |
|
Max Lashin, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Fort Lauderdale | FL | United States | Posted: 12:36 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Oh Russ... you just keep digging yourself a bigger hole for yourself...and sadly all of us (sports shooters) are being thrown into it also..
Not only are you selling yourself short and being ripped off, but your also ruining potential for other photographers to ever get paid by a athletic department. Why would a A.D. ever pay someone for photos when they have people like you who give it away for free.
Experience you say? Wrong answer. Go to a high school game and shoot it if you want experience. You might even make a buck or two off of parents with that.. but NEVER...EVER...EVER work for free. The only free work I ever do is for myself and no one else.
There are thousands and thousands of dollars that Texas Tech is saving by having you give them photos. This whole situation is on the same level as craigslist ads where they say, "well give you photo credit." BS! how many times have you been hired after having your photo run in some bs publication. Probably never!
I didnt mean to be an a-hole etc but its things like this get to me because these situations are what cause freelancers like myself to not have the money to put food on our tables... |
|
Cecil Copeland, Photographer
 |
Marietta | Ga | USA | Posted: 12:43 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> "So, I can't see how just getting upset and taking my toys and going home would be the best thing for me as a sports photog."
.... Then you haven't been reading the message boards here - or any other photo related message boards - about cost of doing business; giving away copyrights; charging for your work; bad photo contracts; giving away your work for free; etc., etc. .....
Max is right - and he's right without being an a-hole about it ..... |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 12:44 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> Max I understand your frustration. If it makes you feel any better, I don't think Tech even bothers looking at the freelance photogs pics. After every game last year I took a CD of my fav pics to the Assistant Media Relations Director and one time he wasn't there so I left it in his box on his door. The next time I came by with a CD, it was still in his door. I asked him about it and he told me that he hardly even looks at them and he still had CD's from last year that he has yet to look at. So, I'm guessing they feel between their staff photogs and journalism student photogs, they got it covered. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 12:48 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> .... Then you haven't been reading the message boards here - or any other photo related message boards - about cost of doing business; giving away copyrights; charging for your work; bad photo contracts; giving away your work for free; etc., etc. .....
No, I haven't. I just became a member here a week ago. Like I said before. I am new to all of this. This is the main reason I joined SS, so that I could learn the business. |
|
Tom Ewart, Photographer
|
Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 1:00 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Hey Russ,
Me and some of my photography buddies like to play on computers, I'm working on a deal to offer my management of the public computing labs at Texas Tech for free, after all I'll get access to lots and lots of computers. I hope your job survives when Texas Tech realizes that they don't have to pay people to manage the labs after all and that we can do it. Hope that free photography gig works out for you...
Wouldn't it be nice if you decided to change careers and do sports photography for a career that the market for the material hadn't eroded so badly that no one was willing to pay you for it?
Our market has been eroded so much by companies like Getty and the AP that are canalizing the market trying to run everyone else out of the market by offering low prices just to get the job and not offering the level of compensation that previous photographer had received and a real lack of commitment to quality. You see it in all businesses now days who are cutting it’s older workforce and opting to hire younger inexperienced workers in order to cut it’s overhead and the higher salary of experienced and senior employees. But with the poor business model of our industry in photography and everyone wanting to get by with the cheapest product that they can it has really hurt photography in an accelerated manor.
The United States has been doing this for a while; we opt for cheep items made in China over quality goods made with pride in America, without regard to the affects to the nation’s economy. Are the products of the highest quality, probably not, but they will get the job done, kind of… It s time we as a country change this thinking and support quality over the cheapest thing out there. I hope my photography isn’t in demand because it’s the cheapest thing out there, but because it is a good value and of very high quality.
I’m not saying volunteering your time isn’t a worth while thing, but think that they may be some other charities out there that may be worthy even though most athletic departments act as though they don’t have any money. They find a way to pay someone to mow the grass and take the tickets and park the cars. How do you feel knowing the high school student parking cars is making a lot more than you at the game and you had to spend how much on a camera and lens and time to manage the digital files. I know the guy who gets paid about $35,000 a year to do the University of Arkansas’ Men’s Photography would be and I should be real mad if you came in a did if for free. I actually think at $35K and the amount of work that is being done is way too cheap, but in this day and age that seems to be how the market is going.
Stock Agencies and the above other photo related business by cutting compensation for photographers have really hurt the market and they in time will realize that no one will be going in to these fields of work because there is no income in the industry and then the market will flip and people will realize that they will have to pay again for a competent photographer to do the job. And there fore not a glut of great images from which to full from be cause the current workforce can’t afford the tools that are needed to do the job. At least that’s what I hope will happen…
TE |
|
Adam Vogler, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
John Germ, Photographer
|
Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 1:06 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> "This is the main reason I joined SS, so that I could learn the business."
Russ- if this is true, then the BUSINESS advice you've been given here is right on the money - giving away free work to ALL TAKEN photos - not just the ones you submit, but every one you take for simple access is a bad business decision.
For that matter, you should probably check with TT and see if your agreement allows you to post any of the images - either here or on other photography forums or on any website. They may say since they own the copyright you can't even post them. But you need to check.
In the grand scheme of things, those in the photo business will lose more respect for you by you giving away services like this than they will be impressed by your portfolio containing Div I college football photos.
But, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "you want to learn about the business" and then ignore every sports shooter that tells you this is a bad business decision. |
|
Stew Milne, Photographer
|
Providence | RI | USA | Posted: 1:06 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ: "I'm not getting paid for it, but I'm getting access and experience that so many others would die for. "
This statement alone is why you should be reading all you can on this site. We understand you are new to this site and it appears new to the photo industry as well. But, while you are "gaining experience and access others would die for" you are hurting the industry by your actions.
Go practice you skills at the local high school game. It's free access and you don't have to sign your rights away for nothing. Sure, it's not as glamorous as Big 12 football, but that doesn't matter. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 1:18 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> Then it sounds to me that I need to find a way to become affiliated with a media outlet. This way, I'm not giving anything away and I'm still on the sidelines shooting away. Is this the general consensus? If so how about some info on how to go about that? A previous poster mentioned working out a deal with presswire. Can someone throw some knowledge my way please? |
|
Kent Miller, Photographer
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 1:36 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> Thanks Kent. I will definately get in touch with them. Any other ideas anyone? |
|
Cecil Copeland, Photographer
|
Marietta | Ga | USA | Posted: 1:43 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ ...
Have you actually signed that contract with TT ??
If so, you might not even be allowed to distribute those images through a media outlet depending on how that contract is worded .... and that would be worth checking out ..... |
|
Chuck Steenburgh, Photographer
|
Lexington | VA | USA | Posted: 1:43 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> "No, you cannot sell the images, per NCAA rules."
Russ, this is a myth. The NCAA and member institutions can control your access, but not what you do with the photos - unless, as you've done, you have given away your rights in exchange for access. |
|
Adam Vogler, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Kansas City | Mo. | USA | Posted: 1:45 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> I hate to break it to ya Russ but your probably not just gonna get credential to Big 12 football with a media outlet paying a "real" day rate right out of the gate.
You can try contacting wire services and newspapers that might be interested in game coverage but the odds of being offered something that's not gonna hurt both you and the industry are not really good.
Just like everything else you don't start out at the big-time, you have to earn your dues. The problem is that lots of people aren't willing to do that so they'll take bad deals to get on the sideline, which causes just a tad bit of hostility on the part of us who pay the bills with a camera, since they are hurting our ability to pay the mortgage, car payment, etc.
You might spend some time searching through some old threads, to learn more. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 1:58 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Have you actually signed that contract with TT ??
Not yet. |
|
Osamu Chiba, Photographer
|
Vista | CA | USA | Posted: 2:01 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ, don't give your work away in the mx industry either.
O |
|
Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
|
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 2:03 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
I am in the same boat as Russ and I have run into a great deal of hostility (and I understand why...honestly) but I don't know how to say this in a perfectly politically correct manor so pardon if I offend but no one is around forever and eventually, we all get replaced in some way or another.
The young guys are honestly trying to learn. I don't want to step on toes or break fingers or hurt anyone but I personally am at the point where I will no longer be in college and have food, housing and something to occupy my time for 20 hours a day all supplied by one large check covered by a scholarship and personal finances and we (the young guys) have to make our names in the industry somehow just like everyone here is doing or did at one point.
I think your best bet is to work out a deal with Tech. Ok so maybe you don't shoot football BUT even my tiny little college has teams that are not regularly covered by shooters. The more you practice, the better you get and it doesnt really matter the level of player/athlete in front of your lens so long as you make the most of it.
I personally have shot for our swim team, for free for the last year because...
1) I'm on it
2) we don't have the budget for a photographer
3) we would have no photos if I didnt do it
4) it gives me practice and helps me learn
So if you are involved with any clubs, sports or something like that, use that to your advantage and just bring your camera to where you would normally be anyway.
Feel free to disagree SS members. Just my take on it from a similar view point. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 2:07 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ, don't give your work away in the mx industry either.
I've made decent $$ in the MX industry in my short period of being in it. |
|
Brian Blanco, Photographer
|
Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 2:13 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ, you're getting some great advice here. Adam is right, this is a small industry and we all pretty much know each other or at least we've heard of each other and so your reputation means a lot as far as the long haul goes. If you're only interested in being on the sidelines "for free" (which, as has been pointed out above is not really 'free') and rubbing elbows with other shooters and impressing the ladies in the parking lot as you walk to the stadium carrying your big cameras then sign that ridiculous contract and keep doing what you're doing. I will tell you though, that truthfully, all you're likely to get out of it is a few non-photog friends who are impressed with your Facebook posts of photos of you on the sidelines and a few photos for your SS updates and screen savers.
IF however, you're really seriously considering a career of this, then I'd respectfully decline that contract and, as has been stated above, start from the ground level and build your portfolio by shooting events where you're not being taken advantage of and you're not hurting your fellow shooters.
I know you're new to this so please understand that I'm not at all angry with you and that I'm thrilled that you're asking questions but here's the deal-
We've all heard the "building a portfolio" argument before but here's the truth of the mater: You'll build a negative reputation FAR FASTER than you'll ever build a portfolio if you give your work away for sideline access. And it's easier to fix a weak portfolio than it is to rebuild a damaged reputation in this industry. |
|
William Maner, Photographer
|
Biloxi | MS | USA | Posted: 2:25 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> To Chuck S..
You wrote:
....."The NCAA and member institutions can control your access, but not what you do with the photos."..
I'm wondering if the respective colleges own the logos that appear on the helmets and jerseys, as well as the design schemes?
It seems to me that if colleges and universities do own the trademarks, they can demand compensation if you do something like create and sell a poster of a player--or even sue you for using materials without permission or compensation.
I'm not that keen about trademark protection, but I do think colleges would guard as vigorously as we photographers would guard our copyrights..
The reason why I think about trademarks are the old sportscards and such released by food companies or fast food chains years ago--they'd air brush out the team name or the logo on a cap, helmet or uniform. |
|
Walt Middleton, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 2:49 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> I find it ironic that on so many threads I've read that a great shot of a pee-wee football game is much better than that of an average shot in a DIV. I NCAA game...
For the most part all of us have started out at the bottom.
You need to start somewhere is correct. However, if you start a business by giving away things for free not only will your clientele see you as the cheap outlet but when you decide that you have gotten enough experience. Do you really think that those same clients will be willing to pay for what they were previously getting for free?
So, long blurb short... You need to find your own niche... One that you can get paid at or at the very least one where you’re not taking a paying job from someone else. i.e. High School/Pee-Wee Football... Get very good at that niche, then branch out... Again paying job is the key...
If you are not getting paid for it then you’re not a professional. And the people who are using those images are not only using the images... They're using and taking advantage of you.
Now for the advice... Everyone here started somewhere... In all likely hood the way they/we got into this business isn't going to be the same way you do. Of the hundred or so working full time photographers I know and see working everyone of them got into this a different way.
You really, really need to find your own niche and own way of making it pay then develop it from there. If you don't what will make you stand out from the rest?
Oh and giving images away in this manner will make you stand out... just not in a good or productive way.
Rant over... |
|
Max Lashin, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Fort Lauderdale | FL | United States | Posted: 2:52 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Jamey,
I am a full time college student also... I am lucky enough to not have to worry about food, housing etc since my parents planned long ago financially for me but in no way shape or form does that make me believe I should go work the sidelines for free... I may be misunderstanding your post, hopefully I am, but just because someone can financially work for free, if you have a full time career etc, does not mean it is ok to work for free or cheap money. It still hurts us all.
At my college we have a couple "sports photographers" who work for the A.D. They all have good paying careers, actually a couple have VERY good paying jobs.. They under cut all the freelancers in this area by offering their services for a rather cheap price to the school and visiting schools. To me and to the freelance guys in the area, it hurts us big time because instead of us working every weekend and making money, they are doing it for a small percentage of the real price rate. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 2:59 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> ^^ I do have a niche. I shoot MX and SX photography mainly as you can tell from my album. I am the track photographer at the 2 local tracks and shoot for Holeshot Magazine and actually shot the cover that is displaying right now on the website www.holeshotmag.com. I too have to deal with so-so photographers coming to the tracks and trying to invade and give away pics. So, I understand what is being said in post after post here. So, like I stated earlier, I am trying to find a media outlet to associate myself with. I emailed the Presswire contact that was posted earlier and I also just found that the photo editor of the Lubbock newspaper is a member here. He hasn't posted anything in a long time, but I'm going to send him a message from his SS page and I'm trying to find his email address at the paper to see if I could freelance for them at the games. |
|
Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
|
Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:05 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> No no. I wasnt saying work for free. Like I said, I understand the issues at hand. What I'm suggesting is that Russ use what he is involved with at school to get practice. I threw out my experience with swimming because it is something that would get no photo coverage because we do not have the budget to hire anyone.
In fact, with swimming...my coach cuts me a deal where I pay less for our gear (because we are a D3 school, we do not get paid to swim like many D1 schools do. If only I had a brand new Speedo fastskin MSRP $400+ for each race :D). Like I mentioned, if I didnt take pics, we would have none and it gives me great practice because lighting in a swimming pool is probably one of the worst places to shoot a sport. It is atrocious (at our pool anyway).
Sorry to not be clear. Again, just use what you are involved with and run with that to build the portfolio. Those that have posted do you think that fair advice? I'm in a similar boat to Russ and am learning as much as he is.
Russ,
I think you have a good gig going with the MX. You have some very cool shots and you are getting paid and published for it. Run with that as far as you can and you'll move up to bigger gigs. |
|
John Germ, Photographer
|
Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 3:16 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ,
You don't have to answer this question publicly but I think what people are interested in is this:
What are you going to do if you CANT get a job to shoot TT games? Is the freelance contract and the credential that goes with it the fallback plan? Hopefully you will get a paid gig. But, as has been pointed out, for Big 12 football that's going to be a very long shot. You may not even know the answer yet. But, in a nutshell, that's what is most interesting about this debate. There aren't many people alive that would work for free (for non charitable work) when they could get paid to do the same thing. The real interesting personal question you have to ask yourself is:
Now that you've heard all this, would you still choose to work for free in trade for a credential if no one is willing to pay you to shoot?
Or will you decide to forego signing the contract and choose to shoot something else (HS football for example if football is what you want experience with)?
Again, my intent is not to have you answer here but that's the question you should be debating with yourself while waiting to hear back from Presswire. |
|
David A. Cantor, Photographer, Photo Editor
|
Toledo | OH | USA | Posted: 3:23 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> "........... I'm trying to find his email address at the paper to see if I could freelance for them at the games."
Newspapers send staffers to cover college games on their turf. Budget issues dried up that route back when the La Brea tarpits were still bubbling.
Calling Chuck Liddy! |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 3:40 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> Then there is still the issue of how I got started shooting on the sidelines. I use my favorite pictures as backgrounds on computers in labs that are in dorms and other public areas all across campus. Managing the labs is a job that I get paid for and deciding which backgounds to use falls on my shoulders. So, shooting the games covers that area and also covers a personal love/hobby of photography. |
|
Brian Blanco, Photographer
|
Tampa / Sarasota | FL | USA | Posted: 4:00 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt so far Russ, but the post above tells me that you're stretching a bit. If you're bound a determined to shoot for free despite the advise you're getting, then that's ok with me but please don't suggest that it was because you felt a sense of responsibility to add cool desktop backgrounds on a few PC in the dorms... just admit you're shooting the games for fun and you wanted us to give you our blessing. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 4:12 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Brian you are wrong. I am determined to find a media outlet to shoot for. I put the last comment up to show that there is more than one side to this predicament. It doesn't mean that I'm going to give my pics away for free to TT if I can't find someone to work for. I have truely taken all of this to heart and even spoken to my wife about it and told her I got my season credential and she got all excited for me, then I told her about the predicament I'm in and all bummed out about. I hate that I was so excited to shoot the upcoming season with my new Full Frame camera and a years experience under my belt, only to be dealt this shocking blow. I'm praying my butt off to find a media outlet to join.
However, I can appreciate how you could have enterpreted what you did from my previous post. |
|
Dave Prelosky, Photographer
|
Lower Burrell | Pa | US | Posted: 4:14 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> " Managing the labs is a job that I get paid for and deciding which backgounds to use falls on my shoulders. So, shooting the games covers that area and also covers a personal love/hobby of photography. "
And to throw another potential wrench in the works, you're working off the clock at the institution that employs you. Your HR folks probably won't care for the idea of voluntary overtime without compensation. Unless of course, you work Saturday afternoons during football season. |
|
Chad Ryan, Photographer
|
Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 4:24 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> See, what is missing from these arguments is that shooting the "big game" for the new guy is not honestly for the practice at all. It's for the emotion of feeling as though they have made it to the "big time." Sure there is a ton more atmosphere at the big game. The backgrounds can be better with thousands of fans bathed in late afternoon sunlight, and the athletes do things that players on lower levels can't possibly do. But the truth is, it's hard to talk common sense with someone when emotion has entered the equation.
For the pros, on the other hand, emotion is a big part of their argument as well. Losing jobs to unpaid amateurs is damn frustrating. It's frustrating as hell to talk to folks all the time who think they could step into your spot and do just as well if only they had the same gear as you or the same access as you.
I guess at this point the pro's and the Joe's will just have to agree to disagree.
To Russ and those in a similar position: Don't post on here that you are going to be shooting games on the sidelines for free because it saves you from buying a season ticket and not expect to take some flack. There are plenty of shooters that could use a paying job, and the fact that Mr. SID isn't going to pay anyone anyway isn't a valid reason for going ahead with your plan. Mr. SID isn't going to pay anyone because of shooters like you. Period.
Yes, you need to practice. I understand that. Really, I do. But when the folks on here tell you to go shoot high school it's not just to get you off the sideline. Go shoot at a high school or some place where the stage isn't all set up for you. You will have all the access you could hope for. Plan a strategy so you can find good backgrounds despite the chain link fences, big white storage sheds and empty metal (damn shiny) bleachers. Think about what you are doing instead of walking up and down the sidelines looking up to see if your friends notice you are on the field or having your mom Tivo the game so you can see yourself on TV for 20 frames (2/3rd of a second).
You do that and someone will pay you to go on those sidelines.
Easy for me to say, huh? Sure, but just this week I had a credential to shoot the US National Swimming Championships. I covered Day 1 because we had local swimmers entered. I photographed the local kids and the Olympians that swam that day, and I went home. I could've been there every day last week if I wanted to. In fact, I've never photographed Michael Phelps, the most recognizable Olympic athlete in the world right now, and I had the chance to. But I decided not to go back to Indianapolis the day he broke the 200 fly world record for two reasons. 1. I had a day off from work and wanted to spend time with my family and 2. I figured if I did go, I would be just another body on a crowded pool deck, and all I'd have to show for it is just another action photo of a famous person at the cost of a lost day with my 2-yr old son.
And you know what? Believe this or don't, but I've made much better pictures at that natatorium covering the Indiana high school state championships than I did photographing the US national team. I guarantee you that nobody is going to hire me to photograph Michael Phelps someday if I can't show them that I can make a picture in less than desirable conditions. |
|
Wesley R. Bush, Photographer
 |
Nashville | TN | U.S. | Posted: 4:28 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> This thread makes my head hurt and my eyes bleed. |
|
Russ Erbe, Photographer
|
Lubbock | TX | US | Posted: 4:35 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> This thread makes my head hurt and my eyes bleed
I feel ya. There's a ton of pent up emotion from alot of folks here. I'm just doing my best to not take these posts personal like the post above yours and take the good information from them. |
|
Chuck Liddy, Photographer
|
Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 5:01 PM on 07.13.09 |
| ->> Russ, you have dug a hole so deep you'd better learn to speak Chinese. Your story has taken this giant arc from at first being a "wild eyed" innocent looking for direction to a hobbyist who sounds nothing short of desperate to be on the sidelines so the spousal unit and her ticketed friends can look down on you trotting up and down the sidelines. Every keystroke you make gets you deeper and deeper....Just so we're clear....you asked for advice...it's been given. Be very honest with yourself and think of how you would feel if a trust fund baby who had lots of money told the Texas Tech IT department he would gladly do Russ Erbe's job for free, because he was as "good" at that sort of thing as Erbe. No problem right? You can just fall back on the money you get paid from the SID....oh wait.....you're working for free. Oooppps! Now do you understand why this is an issue? And as David above said, good luck on finding a paper wanting to pay a freelancer, since you're not in the business lemme let you have some free info. Newspapers are tanking left and right. Hell the Durham paper has TWO staffers to cover four major Division I schools (UNC,DUKE,NCSU and NCCU) that's not even counting the twelve or so high schools AND just regular day to day assignments...and they have NO freelance budget. They're resorting to the reprehensible act of using free labor from local J-school students, who like yourself, use the excuse of wanting to get more experience. No expenses, no pay, no future. Sorry for the long winded statement but I am seriously amazed these threads pop up so often. I guess the more advanced cameras get and the less real skills set it takes to make photos folks like yourself will continue to stick a fork in working professionals. Please DO NOT sign that contract. Go to the game, tailgate, drink heavily smuggle in some mini-bottles and sit in the stands with your wife and her pals. Don't add to the crowd on the sidelines shooting for free. |
|
Chad Ryan, Photographer
|
Fort Wayne | IN | USA | Posted: 5:01 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> Russ,
I directed my post to you, not to criticize you so much as try to explain why you're sensing hostility out of the previous posts. I'll admit my sarcasm on a few of my points was a bit over the top. I'm sorry for that. But trust me, I've been where you are, and I understand what you're saying. All I'm saying is let's not simplify this down to a matter of shooting these game just to get practice or install background photos on your computer lab machines. There is more to it than that.
This kind of hostility goes on everywhere. I've taken crap from other pro's too who feel like I'm on their turf. Last month in Chicago I took a lot of flack because I set up my computer and gear at an empty, unmarked seat in the nearly empty media room at Soldier Field for the USA vs. Honduras soccer match. It was supposedly reserved for someone from the AP, but absolutely nothing hinted toward that. I offered to move, but they chose to act like children about it the rest of the day instead.
If you want to shoot TT games and feel it is the right thing to do in your current situation then go for it. Make the best of it and get the practice you're trying to get. But if you're trying to learn the business, please listen to the others' advice. Negotiate with the SID to at least own your pictures and submit a few selects instead of the whole take. Maybe you can work out a deal to be able to sell prints to the players or their parents. I don't know, but don't just give it away to be on the sideline. |
|
Kevin M. Cox, Photographer, Assistant
 |
Galveston & Houston | TX | US | Posted: 5:04 PM on 07.13.09 |
->> There is a lot of good advice in this thread. Search the SportsShooter story archives and read everything written by Rick Rickman. Here are some other links that I think are important to read:
http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/
http://www.editorialphoto.com/
http://www.loundy.org/commoncents/
Russ said, "I use my favorite pictures as backgrounds on computers in labs that are in dorms and other public areas all across campus."
To me this is just another example of giving your work away for free. Surely the university has an image library available for internal use such as this? (They did at Texas State when I was there years ago.)
While it is good that you are looking for a legitimate publication to shoot for, please make sure you don't accept an equally bad deal from a media outlet to gain sideline access. |
|
This thread has reached the maximum number of posts
If you would like to continue it, please create a new thread.
[ Create new thread? ]
Return to --> Message Board Main Index
|