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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
Lighting gear for outdoor work
Jesse Hutcheson, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Newport News | va | United States | Posted: 2:36 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> I'm trying to upgrade my lighting gear from 2 580 strobes to a full lighting kit but I'm a little lost on what I should get.
Right now I am looking at
http://www.adorama.com/DNM112WPS.html
Is that enough power to do outdoor portraits? Would I need anything else besides a long extension cord or generator?
Thanks. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 2:44 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Can't go wrong with Alien Bee's and their very affordable and quite useful Vagabond battery pack
Add in a beauty dish (beats umbrellas in the wind) and maybe a reflector panel (plus someone to hold it if your lucky) and your in business |
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Jesse Hutcheson, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Newport News | va | United States | Posted: 2:47 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Jeff,
The problem I have is that I dont know everything I need to create a good kit. Do you have any direct links to good kits? |
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Jeff Snyder, Photographer
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Metro DC Region | MD | USA | Posted: 2:59 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Jesse-
I'm happy to help out...You may want to consider battery operated units, such as Elincrom. The Elinchrom Ranger system is fantastic, and very versatile. Once you make a decision on the "Lights", then we can talk about the accessories that you'd more than likely want/need.
Jeff Snyder
ADORAMA
jsnyder@adorama.com |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:18 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Jesse, you can do great stuff with just a single 320watt AB800, a Beauty Dish or other modifier (I like the BD, its sort of bulkly to travel with as it doesnt fold up but umbrellas are a nightmare with even the slightest breeze) and the Vagabond battery pack.
Thats about $650 worth of investment and being a student, remember they'll give you a 10% discount as well on your entire order. They also have a number of packages on the site.
They have some really good forums as well where you can see tons of examples of peoples work, setups etc.
You might also want to consider their Zeus pack/head line. Very nice bang for the buck and they have a really sweet ring flash as well.
No disrespect to Jeff Synder meant either, but while the Elinchrom Ranger system is fantastic, as is the Elinchrom line in general, its also an investment of several thousand dollars, and I'd probably suggest someone on the student/intern level, who's looking to upgrade from two speedlights start a bit smaller at first.
Theres always time to grow later into an Elinchrom, Profoto or other high end offerings, but when your just starting out with lighting, might as well start simple and expand as your needs/business grows.
I'm not going to suggest Paul C Buff's line is as good as the other options because it isn't, but in the hands of a beginner, theres really not going to be much difference in using an Profoto Acute4 system or Alien Bee's except you'll save about $4000 on the AB gear.
I'm a big fan of AB gear as a whole. Its held up great for years and for the rather minimal stuff I need it for such as player headshot days etc, it does the job just fine and didn't cost me an arm and a leg. |
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Jesse Hutcheson, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Newport News | va | United States | Posted: 3:33 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Actually,
The purchase would be made by my office. It would not be my personal gear, so spending $1000-2000 is not an issue if that makes a difference. |
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Manuello Paganelli, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | USA | Posted: 3:41 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Jesse I had worked with Dyna strobes since the late 80's and they are great. But why do you really need them at all?
To my surprised last year, you can do cool work with small flashes. This image was done with 3 small canon flashes.
http://www.paganelliphotography.com/site/kayak-adventure/
If you dont have the clients right now, first build a strong book and get some paying clients, then buy the Dyna strobes. For the moment you can do wonders with just your regular flashes.
Also once you get your strobes you can charge "rental" fees to your clients and that will pay for them and also make $$ for you.
The key is how adept you can get mastering lighting and how talented you are now or later. If you cant do a great portrait with 1,2 or 3 small flashes you wont do it with any mega strobes either.
To become better you need to practice and do it over and over and in many different ways.
More 2 Come
www.ManuelloPaganelli.com |
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Eric Canha, Photographer
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Brockton | MA | United States | Posted: 3:43 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Jesse that SO depends on what it is that you are trying to do. As a replacement for your 2 580's sure. I'm not a fan of packs for outdoor use. Mono's IMO are a better bet plus when you fry power supplies (it'll happen) you're only down one light as opposed to the whole rig.
On the subject of generators, keep in mind that general purpose or "contractor" grade gens will be harsh on your gear. Look for a generator that will put out a pure sine wave. Ditto for inverters.
If you are going to be running extension cords outdoors for powering strobes make sure that you are buying cords rated for the load AND outdoor use. Morning dew on grass or wet sand coupled with a 'cheap' cord will spell trouble and perhaps worse. Electricity can 'leak' into the ground through cheap insulation.
If you are going to take stands outside, you must consider sandbags, waterbags, or another means of keeping them from falling over. Assistants are nice but not a replacement for weights, guy lines, stays etc. to keep those stands in place.
Consider all of the various clamping systems available as a adjuncts to stands. 4 super clamps with studs will let you mount lights to rails or fence posts or other locations.
For outdoor work sometimes you just want to throw some light on very specific places, consider a few grids to shape your strobes.
Lastly how are you going to fire these? If you go with a pack you can go with a single sync cable to the pack or a single xmitter & rcvr. Optical sensors are worthless in sunlight (IMO) so with a mono system you will either need to wire sync's from head to head or get a receiver for each strobe. |
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Jay Westcott, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Robert Seale, Photographer
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Houston | TX | USA | Posted: 5:19 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> You're getting lots of weird conflicting information here.
Yes, that Dyna-lite kit is a great kit, not just for outdoor portraits, but for pretty much anything. You will, however, need to buy an inverter or generator to use it outside. Dyna-lite makes an XP-1100, which you would then plug those packs into to use them on location. The plus side to an inverter is that you get the same recycle time as you do plugged into the wall inside (battery systems are usually slower), the downside is it's another 20-25 pound box, which makes it less portable. I would also recommend getting a 4040 or 4080 head for use in a softbox.
I highly recommend the Honda generators if you are going to go that route. I have the EU2000i which is a pure sine wave unit that will not damage your equipment. They weigh 40 odd pounds and run forever on less than a gallon of gas.
The Profoto 7B is a fabulous unit if you are going to go with a battery based system. They are pricey, but absolutely unparalleled in reliability, power, and recycle time.
The Elinchrom Rangers are nice battery units, but I personally don't care for their heads or their softbox mount. That's just a personal pet peeve of mine....you should still check them out.
If you have a decent budget to spend on this, then forget the Alien Bee stuff. Buy a system you can grow with. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 5:40 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Robert is right, there is definatly a lot of comflicting advice being given. I suppose it really comes down to what the typical shoot Jesse is looking to do more than anything.
Going from 2 speedlights to hauling around a gas generator and a full high end pack and head system is basically like going from a point and shoot to a PhaseOne P65 digital back system.
Budget or not, does it make practical sense to haul around 100lbs and $5k worth of gear ???
If your doing an SI swimsuit shot on the beach with plenty of assistants to help with the gear sure, if your doing a senior portrait with just you and the model in the park maybe not.
What are the limitations you've found using your speedlights if I might ask ? I've found using just a couple of speedlights can really produce excellent results in a great number of conditions.
Perhaps if we know what issues your trying to overcome we could better make a suggestion for you.
Throwing money at the problem and simply buying more powerful lighting doesn't always produce better results.
Joe McNally or Dave Black for example armed with 2 speedlights could produce a better portrait than me even if I had $10K of Profoto gear. |
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Jim Colburn, Photo Editor, Photographer
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McAllen | TX | USA | Posted: 5:44 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> For a good basic set-up how about:
3 x Alien Bee B800 flash units @ $280 each
1 x CyberSync CST radio transmitter @ $60
3 x CyberSync CSRB radio receivers @ $60 each
3 x LS3050 10 foot stands @ $40 each
2 x U48SW 48 inch umbrellas @ $30 each
2 x FSB3240 large softboxes (with speedrings) @ $130 each
1 x LMBD4 barn doors @ $49
1 x Vagabond battery @ $300
for a total of $1870, all from www.alienbees.com
You'll need a case for it all (you may already have something) and a light meter (the Kenko KFM-1100 is a re-make of the old, and wonderful, Minolta Autometer IVF and costs around $260).
I've been using the ABs for about two years now and you won't get any better gear for less than twice the price. |
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David Seelig, Photographer
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Hailey | ID | USA | Posted: 6:08 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> You can also watch ebay for a balcar b3 system a battery pack that can power 3 1600 watt heads . The [ack and heads generally go for around 700 buck on ebay with a1600 watt head and another 80 watt head. Theis pack is much better then any alien bee. It is fast and versaitle. |
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Joe Morahan, Photographer
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Denver | Co | USA | Posted: 6:20 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> As Robert said "The Profoto 7B is a fabulous unit if you are going to go with a battery based system. They are pricey, but absolutely unparalleled in reliability, power, and recycle time. "
I picked up a 7b about 3 years ago and have never loved lights sooooo much. They never have problems, can overpower the ambient lighting in almost any situation and I can take it anywhere. Its a big price to pay up front but I am a very happy customer of the profoto 7b location kit |
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Matt Kartozian, Photographer
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 8:48 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> I use 2 AB1600s with a Honda EU2000 and/or the vagabond battery for shooting desert racing in remote areas. The shots currently on my profile were done with the above setup. I am very impressed with the durability of the AB lights. They ride around in my truck all the time with lots of bouncing around when off road. The stock reflectors are a bit dented but the original bulbs and lights are working great. |
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Rick Rickman, Photographer
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Laguna Niguel | CA | USA | Posted: 9:20 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Jesse:
There are a lot of different combinations that all have advantages and disadvantages. If you go with a system that needs power then you have the added expense of buying a generator and carrying another piece of equipment around. If you go with a system that doesn't need external power then you will eventually face replacing the battery units and having spares on hand.
Finding a good lighting system is like getting married. The one you choose rarely has everything you want but, with some experience and finessing it be what you need.
My suggestion is to rent a few systems before you drop a lot of money and see which one works best for you. In the end that will save you a lot of trouble and dissatisfaction later. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 2:12 AM on 07.07.09 |
->> Ditto for me on what Roberto Seale posted above.
While the "strobist" movement is certainly popular, buying a solid, proven, professional and versatile system like Dyna-Lite is a good move.
(I love the small speedlights and use them from time - to - time ... I will be writing in the next issue of the Sports Shooter Newsletter on the new, cool FourSquare from Lightware Direct. The speedlights have its place but nothing is better outdoors than 1000WS or more, recycling in a couple of seconds.)
If you're going to be using lights outdoors a lot, then you will need POWER.
Dyna-Lite packs, heads and the XP is my choice if you can't afford the Profoto. |
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Neil Turner, Photographer
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Bournemouth | UK | United Kingdom | Posted: 2:54 AM on 07.07.09 |
->> I would add to the comments that tell you to buy the best. I would go with battery power and get one head/pack combination of either the Profoto or the Elinchrom Ranger. I work on my own 99% of the time and so I have to be able to carry what I need. Because of that I used Lumedynes for over ten years until a couple of months ago when I switched to the new Elinchrom Ranger Quadra system. I love this new kit for many reasons but its combination of power and portability wins the day for me.
I rented the Profoto kit and it is amazing. It is also very heavy and for that one single reason I went to the Elinchrom.
Buy decent light stands (I like Manfrotto/Bogen) and good light modifiers and learn how to shoot with your kit simply and then build it up as you see fit. I have bought receivers for my Canon Speedlights so that I can use them as second and third light sources when needed but the vast majority of my work is one light.
I would echo Robert's comments about "strobism" - it's fun and can be really creative but most of the time a decent lighting rig is the better choice.
Neil |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 3:17 AM on 07.07.09 |
->> Does anyone who's suggesting he buy "the best" know his needs for this gear yet though ?
Surely not every photographer needs thousands of dollars worth of lighting equipment.
I know I don't because I'm not doing fashion shoots, or trying to light an arena, nor am I even a portrait photographer really.
I simply need a basic 2 light kit for when I have to light up a team photo and do headshots, maybe a quick player portrait for a weekly paper.
My Alien Bee's sit in my closet for months at a time in fact. Would it not be silly based upon my needs to suggest I need something like a Profoto kit ? Again, great units yes, but only if your getting serious use of them.
I don't mean to sound like I'm trying to push Alien Bee's, but why not start with something affordable and if it doesn't cut it, then go and spend 3-4 times as much money.
Alien Bee even has a 60 day no questions asked money back return policy.
Get a basic rig like Jim outlined, shoot with it for a month or so, learn if it works or doesn't based upon your needs and the type of clients your getting.
If you think you need something higher end, then go for it, but only after you know a more affordable solution won't cut it.
I'm certainly glad I don't have $4000 of lighting gear sitting in my closet gathering dust until I have to shoot a team photo of a middle school basketball team. |
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Stanley Leary, Photographer
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Roswell | GA | USA | Posted: 11:35 AM on 07.07.09 |
->> I had Dyna-Light and when it needed repair and it often did it took forever to be repaired.
Paul Bluff repairs are the fastest in the industry.
Check out their newest line. I think they could be the best in quality. the specs sure seem to lean this way.
http://paulcbuff.com/pcb2009/new_products.html |
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Greg Foster, Photographer
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Atlanta | GA | | Posted: 11:50 AM on 07.07.09 |
->> Jesse,
Since you say that the purchase will be made by your office, and in looking at your profile the office that you work for is the communications department of a college, I think you should consider buying a quality lighting system that the department can grow with both while you are there and if you happen to leave. This means you don't have to worry about establishing a system that you will be tied to in the future. This will also give you the chance to evaluate the system that you buy and you will have better information when and if it comes time to buy your own lights.
Robert Hanashiro is right, if you are going to be shooting outside a lot, you need power. You can get by with speed lights and other lower powered units if you are not dealing with the sun, but if you have to make something look nice in white hot midday sun, the lowered powered units will be not much more than fill light, especially if you are using a softbox or any other modifier that will soak up the light on the way to the subject.
You can get by with about 400 watts in midday sun if you shoot with bare bulb and no modifier - this also depends on how close you place the lights to the subject. Also, it depends on what you want to do with the background. If you want to maintain tone in the background, or saturate it more, you need to be at higher f/stops (more strobe power), and shutter speeds. If you want to overexpose and blow out the background, you have a little more flexibility. If you use a modifier on the light you are limited, unless you put the light really close to the subject, which will in turn limit your framing.
Around 1000 watts with a modifier will put you in the right neighborhood, but it will still depend on the circumstances of the ambient light, and how close you place the flash head to your subject. If you have 2000 watts you will pretty much never have to worry about your output in most any situation outdoors (though there are always exceptions in varying situations). Keep in mind that the output from power ratings that come from different manufacturers may vary.
If you have a cloudy or overcast day, or are shooting in early or late light, you will have more flexibility and will not have to have as much power to control the ambient. Also, if you are shooting in hot midday bright sun, you can control the quality of the light on the subject by putting them in shade, but this will not help with controlling your backgrounds if they are still in the sunlight.
So, all this being said, I think the Dyna-lites you are looking at would be a great system for you or your office to build on. They are dependable, rugged, simple, affordable, and they have been around a long time and have a solid reputation. I have been using them for about 23 years, and still have the first 800 watt pack I bought. (The Profotos are great too, but not really in the $1000 - $2000 range you mention.) The kit looks pretty complete, though you might consider adding some sort of softbox or Octabank, and a sturdier light stand. One very important accessory for this type of setup, as Eric says above, is a VERY high quality long extension cord.
I also like the Lumedynes; I have a 400 watt pack that I have had for about 16 years, I replaced the battery once. I use it often outside, but again, in bright sunlight it usually has to be barebulb, and fairly close to the subject.
There is no substitute for power if you want to shoot outside in bright sunlight with any sort of modifier and flexibility in framing.
All of this, of course, is just my opinion, and is what has worked for me over the years. |
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Robert Hanashiro, Photographer
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Los Angeles | CA | | Posted: 11:26 PM on 07.07.09 |
->> Never had a problem getting Dyna-Lite gear repaired ... matter of fact in 25 years of using Dyna-Lites, I've only had 3 pieces in for repair.
Two heads that took wacks when subjects knocked over lightstands and the third incident was when a pack was fired repeated too quickly by another photographer that was using my gear at an awards show.
I guess it depends where and who you get your gear repaired by. But in my limited experience in this business, I cannot say enough about the Dyna-Lite system.
YMMV. |
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David G. McIntyre, Photographer
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Beijing | . | CHINA | Posted: 12:48 AM on 07.08.09 |
->> I use the Norman 400B's with modeling light, and Pocket Wizard receiver built in.
I can get a set and charger into a Think Tank rolling bag and check them.
http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2180
They last forever, and recharge well too. |
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Allen Murabayashi, Photographer
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 2:31 AM on 07.08.09 |
->> listen to seale, bert and greg. they do more location work than most of us combined.
i own dynalite uni jr's, elinchrom ranger AS, and the profoto acuteB. and each system definitely has its pros and cons.
i agree with greg that you need to determine what you're going to be shooting in order to figure what you need. in nyc, it's rare that we're trying to overpower the sun to do a portrait, so in many cases a smaller unit (i.e. 600 w/s or less) will suffice. but remember, if you slap on a softbox, you're going to lose 1.5 - 3 stops of light.
if you're shooting in texas in the summer at high noon, you're going to need something like the ranger to overpower the sun (if that's the style you're going for). if you're looking to simply fill shadows, then the lower power units will suffice. point being that you have to determine what you're shooting and the style in which you're shooting before you pay for power you don't need.
profoto has the best head attachment system, imo, but it's also expensive, and sometimes cumbersome (e.g. the grid holder).
lastly, i'm an advocate of battery-based systems. i don't even shoot very much, but i've been in enough situations where power wasn't available, and the batteries saved my butt. e.g. i shot some portraits in a broadway theatre, and i couldn't plug into the wall without involving the union. |
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