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|| SportsShooter.com: Member Message Board
'Novice' photographer in golf tournament storm
Aaron Bell, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Belleville | ON | Canada | Posted: 8:58 AM on 07.06.09 |
->> I thought this story was interesting.
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/novice_photographer_in_golf_tourn...
I usually shoot hockey so shutter noise is not generally an issue but I have come across times when I wish the shutter wasn't so dang loud. I use a Nikon D300 and D700 and am curious about how pro golf shooters get around this issue (just longer glass?) and get into stealth mode. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 9:35 AM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> Sounds like "Shooter McGavin" from Happy Gilmore. |
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Kevin Leas, Photographer, Assistant
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Rochester | NY | USA | Posted: 10:09 AM on 07.06.09 |
->> Aaron:
1) Don't shoot before contact with the ball if using a lens with a mechanical shutter.
2) Shoot with a camera that doesn't have a mechanical shutter.
That's essentially all there is to it. |
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Joe Morahan, Photographer
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Denver | Co | USA | Posted: 10:26 AM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> I think Ian Poulter should quit whining and hit the putting green. |
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Michael Granse, Photographer
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Urbana | IL | USA | Posted: 10:56 AM on 07.06.09 |
->> Is there any rule that prevents acoustically hypersensitive golfers from wearing ear plugs?
If the sound of a camera firing 25 yards away is really the difference between 1st place or 2nd or 3rd, then the sound of a bird, airplane, distant thunder, sneeze from the gallery, or any other manner of uncontrollable noises is every bit as big of a problem.
I still do not understand how a hockey player can burry a slap shot from the blue line with somone trying to take his head off in front of 15,000 screaming fans but a guy in plaid pants needs absolute silence to hit a little white ball with nobody trying to prevent him from swinging the club. |
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Steven Ickes, Photographer
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Mechanicsburg | PA | USA | Posted: 11:11 AM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> Whether or not Ian Poulter is whinning, don't press the shutter release during backswing or before contact with the ball. Whether or not a hockey player can bury a slapshot, a ballplayer can hit a home run, or a wide receiver make a Super Bowl winning catch with thunderous noise from the crowd makes no difference. Golf has well-known rules of etiquette which we're all expected to abide by and respect whether we agree with them or not. |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 11:33 AM on 07.06.09 |
->> Here's a thread that covers a lot of the key points:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=31584
Steven is exactly right. If it's quiet and you expect it to be quiet because it usually IS quiet, I can see why a shutter blast would cause you to lose focus.
Hockey, basketball & football players have played in loud crowd situations since high school. Once they reach a certain level, EVERY game is noisy and crowded. They've all had to perform in last-minute tense situations with all sorts of racket, and they train specifically for those moments.
Golf is a lot different. It's mostly a quiet, solitary sport until tournament time. It makes sense for them to try to keep the tournament environment similar to their training environment so they can get the most out of their game...and give spectators a good show.
It's not too much to ask people to be quiet and for photographers to follow the rules. |
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Derick Hingle, Photographer
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Hammond | LA | USA | Posted: 12:22 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> I think bull horns should be allowed, but that's just me, lol.
I'm only half kidding, but I was a shooter for the Zurich Classic and I have to say there was noise, no stopping it, you could hear the crowd cheering from another hole while a golfer would tee off, so I just don't understand the sound of a shutter from 25-yards away caused Poulter to miss the shot. I think he simply choked and gave that as his reason. Now I do follow the rules when I shoot golf, I just think they are pointless when every other sport has screaming fans. But again, I follow the rules for a given event even though I may not agree with them. |
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Joe Morahan, Photographer
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Denver | Co | USA | Posted: 12:32 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> I agree with you all.
Golf is a game of etiquette, but I have to ask this...Kobe does not have fans screaming and drunk people waving balloons while he is in the gym working on his free-throws. But during the game it happens. What if he said that he blew the game because of the noise? It sounds like an excuse to me. If the noise was someone sneezing then what? Is it the fans fault? Maybe Ian Poulter should not play in tournaments with no fans if any noise could distract him. I do agree with the fact that photogs should show respect, but blame a photographer on a loss? Weak excuse- |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 12:55 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> "I think bull horns should be allowed, but that's just me, lol."
HA! That is the funniest thing Ive seen all day.
Aaron, I feel your pain. I shoot with a D300 and I do work for my college and often it is events that are a speaker talking infront of the student body and such like that and I know very well how loud the Nikon shutter is. At times, I have just worked like a sniper picking shots and basically anticipating the good picture and only taking one so it isnt a continuous blast. |
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Jeff Mills, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Columbus | OH | USA | Posted: 1:00 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> There are plenty of options in the compact camera market that don't have mechanical shutters and as such can be set to shoot completely silent.
That Casio EX1 or whatever its called could be a very cool tool as it can shoot 6meg images at 60 FPS.
You'd not only be assured of getting a very cool sequence of the swing and frames with the ball just coming off the clubhead, which is next to impossible even with perfect timing otherwise, but you'd not have to worry about shutter noise either.
Its better to look for ways to work around a problem and achieve something unique as a result of it rather than complain about how silly some rule is because thats just not going to change anything.
For the record, I do think its a bit of a silly rule but I still do respect it.
Just think how much more fun the game would be though if at every teebox all the fans in the gallery were waving those foam sticks like they do during freethrows and heckers could shout out things like "miss it" right when they swung. |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 1:40 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> Regardless of how everyone feels on the matter, shooting golf is a bit different that shooting moto racing: different venues, different culture, different rules. |
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Matt Kartozian, Photographer
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Scottsdale | AZ | USA | Posted: 1:42 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> More of these guys need to play the 16th hole at the FBR Open in Phoenix. 20,000 screaming drunks in a stadium. |
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James Nix, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 2:32 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> I see very few interesting frames of golfers during their backswing ... the only one that stands out to me is Fred Vuich's image of Tiger at the Masters, but I understand that was a silent shutter (http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/497)
There are many more interesting pictures to be made after the ball is hit in my opinion. |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 2:34 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> I know with horse racing sometimes trainers will honk horns and make noise and take horses to the race track and walk them behind the starting gate so they can become accustomed to the noise, stress and environment. I think golfers should take note.
That is an interesting idea about the compact cameras. Some of them do have VERY high resolutions that are more then capable. Still, the art of a shallow DoF is something no compact camera will get (for now) and sometimes is something you just need for a spectacular photo. |
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Max Lashin, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Fort Lauderdale | FL | United States | Posted: 2:36 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> Shoot from the Goodyear blimp. Golfers cant attack you when you're a couple hundred feet in the air.. |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:00 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> The whirring from the propeller a thousand feet up might distract the poor man ;)
After reading that article, it was kind of funny how utterly upset he was. Why not just say something along the lines of "woops. I missed a putt." Even Tiger misses putts and he doesnt throw hissy fits saying "Ill never come back to this place again!" |
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Nic Coury, Photographer
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Monterey | CA | | Posted: 3:08 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> I know loads of guys are digging the Canon G10 for it's silent shutter. Heck of nice IQ too... |
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John Germ, Photographer
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Wadsworth | Oh | USA | Posted: 3:14 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> "Even Tiger misses putts and he doesnt throw hissy fits saying "Ill never come back to this place again!"
No, but he has had his own issues with photographers...
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=3313069
Also, several years earlier, his caddy took a camera from a fan (who snapped a photo disturbing Tiger) and threw it in the water. |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 3:14 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> Ive just been informed cell phone cameras and point and shoots are banned from PGA events. Not sure about other leagues. I believe that story came from the UK.
I did not know that though. |
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Max Lashin, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Fort Lauderdale | FL | United States | Posted: 4:00 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> " Ive just been informed cell phone cameras and point and shoots are banned from PGA events."
Ya the last thing a golfer wants is some teenagers "My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard" ringtone going off during his swing... |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 4:19 PM on 07.06.09 |
->> ->> Ive just been informed cell phone cameras and point and shoots are banned from PGA events.
Pretty much all cameras are banned at PGA events unless you have credentials. |
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Nick Morris, Photographer
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San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 4:21 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> I got the smack down a few weeks ago by a PGA official while shooting the Rolex in Rancho Santa Fe. I was about 25 yards away also when he approached me because my shutter was too loud... Mark III. I told him it was an easy fix and I put it in S mode. Funny thing it was the father of a player who was getting her proverbial ass handed to her that complained. Everyone else I spoke to said it was lame and didn't bother them. |
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Tom Ewart, Photographer
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Bentonville | AR | USA | Posted: 10:32 PM on 07.06.09 |
| ->> Nick wouldn't that be an LPGA official? |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 12:01 AM on 07.07.09 |
->> Well, here are my two cents, and that is over-valuing them.
I think that of the sports mentioned, the one where the shutter click is the most important is anything horse related. Why? Horses are horses. They hear a click and they don't know if it is a camera, a mouse or a rattlesnake - they get spooked. Spooked horses are no fun, dangerous, and completely unpredictable.
Now for golf. The rules do forbid point and shoot and non-professional cameras from the PGA tour. Ditto on above for needing creds to go with them. The rules also forbid shooting during a backswing, but that rule is broken every day there is a Getty shooter on course. SEE LINK BELOW
The trick is that if you want to do it, you better be more than 25 yards away. Think D3, 500mm or more, cropped. And you still better be sure no one can hear it. On a tee box with everyone quiet, man a D3 or Mark III just gets amplified by the surrounding quiet. Get out in the open like that with folks walking up and down the course and chattering and it gets lost.
As far as complaining about the shutter after the shot, well, that is inane. If you give them enough respect to let them make contact, you have let them do their job and they should let you do yours. Period.
Just my opinion. Horses though...wow...you can be sure if you are the only photographer within 100 yards of a horse during morning workouts, that you will get the greenest animal on the planet and he will hear you. Guaranteed.
(http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?EventId=84058526#2) Row 6, Photo 2 |
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Nick Morris, Photographer
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San Marcos | CA | United States | Posted: 12:02 AM on 07.07.09 |
| ->> Tom, Nope! He was PGA. Dunno why just what his name tag and shirt said. Nice catch though ;o) |
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Lyle Aspinall, Photographer
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Calgary | AB | Canada | Posted: 12:47 AM on 07.07.09 |
->> A week ago I shot a tee-off next to a photographer who fired three frames while a golfer readied his club head at the ball, moments before going into his backswing.
The golfer stopped, looked directly at the photographer and said angrily, "Great timing. Y'know, it is really quiet out here."
The photog offered a nod of apology.
The golfer went through his motions again and then shanked his shot on the Par 3 before bogeying the hole. He didn't blame the photog for the bad result, but I couldn't help but wonder if it was related.
Walking down the fairway, I chatted briefly with the official who had been holding up the 'Quiet' sign when the golfer was teeing off.
"Sometimes I feel like I might as well not even be here," he said.
I could only nod. I was frustrated with the other shooter too, for making all photographers look bad, but what could I do? |
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Bob Ford, Photographer
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Lehighton | Pa | USA | Posted: 8:29 AM on 07.07.09 |
->> "The rules also forbid shooting during a backswing, but that rule is broken every day there is a Getty shooter on course. SEE LINK BELOW"
Scott, I clicked the link and looked but I don't see any photos shot during backswings. There are plenty during their follow throughs. |
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Kenneth Jacobson, Photographer, Assistant
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New York | NY | USA | Posted: 9:29 AM on 07.07.09 |
| ->> I'm not sure there are many of us who can relate to being in a position where one mistake could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars (euros, whatever). Obviously Poulter should keep his trap shut after the fact but that doesn't excuse the photographer's conduct. Also, if you asked most golfers they'd tell you that noise level isn't the problem, and that if there were a constant level of white noise that'd be fine, it's the sudden, unexpected noises that disrupt their timing/feel. |
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Chuck Liddy, Photographer
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Durham | NC | USA | Posted: 10:07 AM on 07.07.09 |
| ->> Bob, it (the photo) was there yesterday. It actually is a terrible example since it is obviously shot from so far away (probably a 400 and converter or a 600). Looking at that example I would think the shooter was between fifty and 75 yards away, maybe further depending on the crop. Technically that could quite possibly forbid anyone from taking photos at anytime. Think about it....a golfer is in the tee box another is putting on the green behind him. The shooters fire frames after the tee shot but the other guy is just putting...that photo was a bad example of what this thread is about. We might not like the rules but as posted above they're rules. My rule of thumb is, if I think a shot is going to get me in trouble with a prima donna golfer, I don't take it. It's not worth the hassle, plus it has been my experience that pro golfers LOVE to blame anyone in the gallery for their own shortcomings or poor play. They can be VERY nasty to both media and spectators. One of my favorite things to see at a tourney (a guilty pleasure) is watching a golfer get ready to address a shot and right as they go to swing a gallery on another hole close by lets out a thunderous roar....it's fun to watch the golfer's face as he looks around for someone to yell at.... |
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Jon Wright, Photographer
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Wayzata | MN | USA | Posted: 10:59 AM on 07.07.09 |
| ->> I wonder if players should be allowed to "grunt" when they smack those long drives? |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 12:26 PM on 07.07.09 |
->> "Ya the last thing a golfer wants is some teenagers "My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard" ringtone going off during his swing..."
HAHAHAHA I love it. This has been a very interesting topic.
I'm curious because while golf is a sport that requires extreme concentration and focus, stepping on a twig nearby would produce the same effect of taking a photo and as we all know, like it or not photos sell tickets and photos pay the bills.
As far as horse racing, from my experience as both a jockey and a photographer...my opinion is to think the horses deal with cameras and camera men a lot better then golfers do.
Anyway, thanks for sharing the link Aaron! |
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George Bridges, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Washington | DC | USA | Posted: 1:10 PM on 07.07.09 |
->> OK, I've said this before in similar threads and will say it again.
Pro golf tournaments are noisy places with the crowds, people constantly chattering and walking around. Carts from staffers and TV running around etc.
But it is a sudden noise that can cause a golfer to mishit. Pro players swing the club at 120+ mph. So if the club face is just 2 degrees off at impact it can translate into a 20-30 yard miss when the ball lands and that can mean a ball in the water or out of bounds. Pro golfers are not guaranteed money. If that one shot means you don't make the cut then you've spend a few grand in travel, hotel, meals and caddie fees to earn zero dollars. So I can understand why they get upset. Even if it means the difference between first and second place the money difference can be in the millions of dollars. I'd be mad too if I felt a stray noise cost me a stroke or two on the scorecard.
The comparison to horses is not really valid because when a field of thoroughbreds are at full gallop they create a fair amount of noise so I doubt they will even hear shutters going off.
The guys who do golf week after week (a couple of the Getty guys credited on the photos on the link above and folks like Robert Beck and Darren Carroll) know exactly what they can get away with and what distances they need to be from the golfer to not be a distraction so I would not point to those Getty images for proof in any argument.
But the thing I find interesting is Poulter blamed a "novice" photographer. How does he know it's a novice? Could have been a pro. I've seen many experienced shooters fire either accidentally or on purpose at the wrong time. |
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Jamey Price, Student/Intern, Photographer
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Charlotte | NC | USA | Posted: 1:29 PM on 07.07.09 |
->> Well the noise factor is not the point in the comparison. Its photographer knowledge of the sport and the etiquette displayed toward the athlete that is the point I think.
I have been thrown from a horse because a photographer was standing where he shouldn't have been. Where the golfer may lose a few thousand dollars, a jockey would have lost that or more in medical bills and the pro's lose lose a paycheck from riding. If youre not riding, youre not earning. So the comparison is valid because money is on the line for everyone.
But I agree that the statement that he was just lashing at a "novice" was unwarranted and over the line probably. Like I said, I feel for them both but you cant go around looking for every excuse you shanked the ball. Thats my take on it anyway. |
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Scott Serio, Photo Editor, Photographer
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Colora | MD | USA | Posted: 1:46 PM on 07.07.09 |
->> Just to clarify...
I was pointing to Getty to show that folks like Hunter Martin, Cohen, Halleren (all great shooters) and you can add Darren Carroll (NICE GUY), PGA's Stan Badz and the like to show that there are times and places for everything. That shot from behind was definitely with a 400mm lens minimum and cropped. As Chuck said, 50 yards minimum, and in open space. You can get away with that and, when done well, can make a dramatic photo.
You try that with a 200mm lens from 20 yards away, you will be heard and might get ejected from the course. Well, whatever would happen, it wouldn't be pretty.
As for horses, I wasn't talking about during the running of a race. You actually do have to exercise extreme caution with a single horse, especially during morning works. Those horses get spooked in a hurry and the result of a spooked horse can be deadly.
All of this still doesn't touch the main fact. If you are a photographer on the tee, you don't shoot during a swing. Period. |
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Dave Amorde, Photographer
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Lake Forest | CA | USA | Posted: 4:37 PM on 07.07.09 |
| ->> I guess it's too much to ask shooters in this situation to learn to use a blimp? |
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David Harpe, Photographer
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Louisville | KY | USA | Posted: 4:50 PM on 07.07.09 |
| ->> It would be interesting to see a blimp capable of housing a 300 or a 400... |
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N. Scott Trimble, Photographer
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Lake Oswego | OR | USA | Posted: 4:50 PM on 07.07.09 |
| ->> Aww heck. Just buy a 5D mark II for golf, let it shoot HD video and take the frame where you want it. Problem solved!!! :P |
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Christopher Kays, Photographer
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Benton | IL | USA | Posted: 3:08 AM on 07.11.09 |
->> Normally if you are a good distance away, there is no problem with GREAT golfers.
Yes, Poulter is a good golfer (he's on tour) but he still is not GREAT. Most teams or individuals try to blame their loss on something, his scapegoat was the photographer. |
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Bill Ross, Photographer
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Colorado Springs | CO | USA | Posted: 10:30 AM on 07.11.09 |
| ->> May as well throw Tennis into this... I don't see many shots of tennis striking a serve. |
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Jeff Martin, Photographer
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wellington | OH | usa | Posted: 12:57 PM on 07.11.09 |
| ->> It's their party. Follow their rules. No matter how silly you think they are. |
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Michael Fischer, Photographer
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Spencer | Ia | USA | Posted: 2:19 AM on 07.12.09 |
->> What JEff said.
You don't like the rules, then don't cover it. These are private companies who are under no obligation to make things easy for us.
How much more simple could it be? |
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Peter Wine, Photographer, Photo Editor
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Matt Petit, Student/Intern, Photographer
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James Escher, Photographer
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Garden City | NY | USA | Posted: 6:53 PM on 01.22.10 |
->> Dave Black, who's an absolutely brilliant photographer, successfully shot golfers on their backswings using a Coolpix 8700 set to silent shutter. He offers his input here:
http://www.daveblackphotography.com/workshop/0405.htm |
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Mitchell Clinton, Photographer
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Jeff Jones, Photo Editor
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Gallup | NM | USA | Posted: 6:12 PM on 01.23.10 |
->> James -
I was looking for the Dave Black story - he told us about it while a guest speaker at the SWPJC a few years ago. To get different images you have to look for ways to work around rules and keep everybody happy.
(Don't forget, the Southwest Photojournalism Conference is coming up in March. Wish I could attend this year.)
As for golf itself, I agree with Mark Twain who said, "Golf is a good walk spoiled." |
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Danny Munson, Photographer
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San Dimas | Ca | United States | Posted: 9:34 PM on 01.23.10 |
| ->> Mitch the great part about that last clip was Sandy got up and won the stage. |
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